Going mechanical with a Moose Omega Marine IP

[THEFERMANATOR]

The p7100 bosch inline pump used on the cummins is capable of common rail pressures, and they don't start as good as the earlier ve rotary pumps do imo. Newer diesels start so much better simply because of technology. I know mine need roughly 1700 psi just to open, but it will start as well at 1700 psi as it does at 6000 psi. It all comes down to the combustion event being harnessed directly into the bowl of the piston and the fuel being directly injected with one of the nozzle orifices being aimed directly at the glow plug for instant ignition. Theres no waiting for the fuel charge to ignite in a pre chamber, travel out the precup, then hit the ricardo bowl, and finally redirect the combustion back at the cylinder head before it's working to run the engine.

 

[TAG]

The p7100 bosch inline pump used on the cummins is capable of common rail pressures, and they don't start as good as the earlier ve rotary pumps do imo. Newer diesels start so much better simply because of technology. I know mine need roughly 1700 psi just to open, but it will start as well at 1700 psi as it does at 6000 psi. It all comes down to the combustion event being harnessed directly into the bowl of the piston and the fuel being directly injected with one of the nozzle orifices being aimed directly at the glow plug for instant ignition. Theres no waiting for the fuel charge to ignite in a pre chamber, travel out the precup, then hit the ricardo bowl, and finally redirect the combustion back at the cylinder head before it's working to run the engine.

Well...It's gotten me where I need to go for 16 years & 300,000 miles so far without a wrecker bill, so I guess we'll carry on with the ancient tech.

 

[79jasper]

Another tidbit about newer trucks starting easier/cleaner: instant heat glowplugs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Another tidbit about newer trucks starting easier/cleaner: instant heat glowplugs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

Mine doesn't have them. GM didn't go to 4.7v carbon pile glow plugs until mid year 04 with the lly. My lb7 has regular run of the mill 11 volt plugs in it. The carbon pile plugs do give a more gas like starting experience since theres virtually no wait for the plugs to get hot. I believe it's only 3 seconds heating time for them at freezing temps, and something like 6 seconds is max wait time.

 

[FellowTraveler]

The p7100 bosch inline pump used on the cummins is capable of common rail pressures, and they don't start as good as the earlier ve rotary pumps do imo. Newer diesels start so much better simply because of technology. I know mine need roughly 1700 psi just to open, but it will start as well at 1700 psi as it does at 6000 psi. It all comes down to the combustion event being harnessed directly into the bowl of the piston and the fuel being directly injected with one of the nozzle orifices being aimed directly at the glow plug for instant ignition. Theres no waiting for the fuel charge to ignite in a pre chamber, travel out the precup, then hit the ricardo bowl, and finally redirect the combustion back at the cylinder head before it's working to run the engine.

& your way ahead in efficiency with the direct injection as compared to the IDI.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

& your way ahead in efficiency with the direct injection as compared to the IDI.

To an extent. Theres a breaking point where idi's win over di, but once you cross the efficiency line, di wins out big time. Idi's have there place, but the duramax was designed to take care of all the 6.5's short comings. Going back to 98 when it was designed, built, and put into production in just 90 days(yes, the 1st duramax went from a clean sheet design to working prototypes in just 90 days, it was unheard of at the time, and still unheard of today. And that design was so good, that it took from 2001-2016 before it saw it's 1st major redesign for the new 2017 l5p engine), the engineers specifically wanted to not just lead in HP, but decimate the competition(the 7.3L was 255hp for 01, and cummins offerred a 245hp version with the 6 speed manual only to try and compete), it also had to be a game changing diesel in technology, refinement, noise levels, and power delivery, and clean cold starts were a MUST! Nothing against the 6.5l, but it was designed in the late 70's, going forward 20 years in design and technology as well as enlisting one of the top diesel engine manufacturers to design your new engine was bound to be game changine.

 

[Will L.]

Well, i have to disagree on part of the above. Technical tidbit.

At the same time I was working with 76 oil co & local testing on 6.5 problems with the GM engineers, I was working in the fleet of 6.5s and in our fleet because of our involvement with Gm already, we got the first 10 duramax trucks west of the Mississippi. Part of our fleet was also several MQ -multiquip quiet diesel tow behind generators, 15kva to 100kva. Powered by Isuzu engines that were game changers in the generator industry in the lwte 90's.

I noticed some similarities of the generator engines instantly having had rebuilt a few. I brought this up to the engineers, and the tie between Isuzu and GM, and they laughed commenting i had a good eye and pointed out some stolen parts they used. The Isuzu industrial engine was installed in as old as late 1990's generator, was the same pump and injector setup in duramax trucks. In fact, when we needed to change some of the first fuel filters and couldn't get them anywhere, the dealership had to hold delivering their first duramax so we could steal the filter. When I picked it up from the dealership and saw it, I went to our generator shop, and grabbed 4 more filters off our shelf. Identical.

The Isuzu generator and duramax is not the same exact engine,- but anyone that wrenches on them see the design and components are the same.

We even stole the injectors from a wrecked truck that only had 13,000 miles on it, and a generator smoked it's injectors from water in the fuel. I took injectors out of the truck and installed in the generator myself. Same same. It was the GM engineers that told me they were the same- no way I would just guess and try, not on a life critical generator.

Gm in 90 days may have took the Isuzu engine, made it 'smart' version and into a v8. But they didn't create it from scratch.

Eveything else you mentioned I am 100% on board with.

@TAG : As for modification of 6.5 to take the much improved injection system- many of us have thought of it, some have tried. I prefer burning benjamins one at a time at a campfire- the money last longer and I at least get toasted marshmallows out of the deal. But by all means- hop to it, take pics and video as you go. But the high pressure pump needs high pressure lines and injectors. Then direct injection so a new head, and the piston tops need altering but you have to redo it to lower compression and loose the precup swirl cut in the piston anyways. So let us know. And, not picking on you- I started chasing that road too about 13 years ago...

 

[TAG]

Will... I believe you misunderstood my intention with my response about the fuel pressure. Just pointing out my belief that the modern diesels start much better due to the extremely high injection pressure. I have no intention of reinventing the wheel with a 6.5. If I wanted a duramax I'd just hop down to the local gm dealer & buy one.

 

[Will L.]

Will... I believe you misunderstood my intention with my response about the fuel pressure. Just pointing out my belief that the modern diesels start much better due to the extremely high injection pressure. I have no intention of reinventing the wheel with a 6.5. If I wanted a duramax I'd just hop down to the local gm dealer & buy one.

I absolutely thought thats what you were wanting to do. I guess all 3 points on my IQ test were showing. Haha. I am all on board with high fuel pressure /better atomization being part of the easier starts.

 

[TAG]

I absolutely thought thats what you were wanting to do. I guess all 3 points on my IQ test were showing. Haha. I am all on board with high fuel pressure /better atomization being part of the easier starts.

It's all good.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Will... I believe you misunderstood my intention with my response about the fuel pressure. Just pointing out my belief that the modern diesels start much better due to the extremely high injection pressure. I have no intention of reinventing the wheel with a 6.5. If I wanted a duramax I'd just hop down to the local gm dealer & buy one.

Thing is though, the DURAMAX can start at 1700 psi of fuel pressure, the 6.5L has to reach in the 2100 or so range before the injectors pop. So in some instances the 6.5l can have more pressure during initial startup than a duramax.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Well, i have to disagree on part of the above. Technical tidbit.

At the same time I was working with 76 oil co & local testing on 6.5 problems with the GM engineers, I was working in the fleet of 6.5s and in our fleet because of our involvement with Gm already, we got the first 10 duramax trucks west of the Mississippi. Part of our fleet was also several MQ -multiquip quiet diesel tow behind generators, 15kva to 100kva. Powered by Isuzu engines that were game changers in the generator industry in the lwte 90's.

I noticed some similarities of the generator engines instantly having had rebuilt a few. I brought this up to the engineers, and the tie between Isuzu and GM, and they laughed commenting i had a good eye and pointed out some stolen parts they used. The Isuzu industrial engine was installed in as old as late 1990's generator, was the same pump and injector setup in duramax trucks. In fact, when we needed to change some of the first fuel filters and couldn't get them anywhere, the dealership had to hold delivering their first duramax so we could steal the filter. When I picked it up from the dealership and saw it, I went to our generator shop, and grabbed 4 more filters off our shelf. Identical.

The Isuzu generator and duramax is not the same exact engine,- but anyone that wrenches on them see the design and components are the same.

We even stole the injectors from a wrecked truck that only had 13,000 miles on it, and a generator smoked it's injectors from water in the fuel. I took injectors out of the truck and installed in the generator myself. Same same. It was the GM engineers that told me they were the same- no way I would just guess and try, not on a life critical generator.

Gm in 90 days may have took the Isuzu engine, made it 'smart' version and into a v8. But they didn't create it from scratch.

Eveything else you mentioned I am 100% on board with.

@TAG : As for modification of 6.5 to take the much improved injection system- many of us have thought of it, some have tried. I prefer burning benjamins one at a time at a campfire- the money last longer and I at least get toasted marshmallows out of the deal. But by all means- hop to it, take pics and video as you go. But the high pressure pump needs high pressure lines and injectors. Then direct injection so a new head, and the piston tops need altering but you have to redo it to lower compression and loose the precup swirl cut in the piston anyways. So let us know. And, not picking on you- I started chasing that road too about 13 years ago...

I didn't say they didn't share parts. ISUZU initially told GM it would be 2003 before the DURAMAX would be ready, but GM insisted they needed prototypes by late 98 to put into GMT-400 test mules. The actual engine itself was a clean sheet design. ISUZU didn't even have a V-8 in there lineup at the time. They obviously had to do things to design the engine in 90 days instead of 5 years like they initially said. And as to the 90 days, it was achieved by the time difference. The ISUZU engineers would video conference with the GM engineers at the end of there shift allowing the GM engineers to work on there portion while those in Japan slept, then at the end of GM's shift they would video conference with the ISUZU engineers so they could pick up on there end. Essentially the DURAMAX engine was an around the clock design project with somebody working on it at ALL hours for 90 days straight. ISUZU designed the nitty gritty of the engine on there end, GM worked out electrical details and such on there end as they used DELPHI ECM and controls with an existing BOSCH CP3 injection system. I need to find the copy of the history of the DURAMAX and the DMAX LTD project, it is quite the interesting read.

 

[Ratman]

Oooh a built 6.5 close by?? Cool!

Are you running a DB2 or a DS4? I ran the same engine last winter and didn't have any cold start issues, without the electronic aids it's a but more cold-blooded, but I'd gladly trade that for the performance I've gained. I think if I had the cold advance working it would be running better cold. Even in the summer I've had some cold start issues that got better once I put a little more advance in.

Nate, you will notice a big improvement with the 3-4 degrees the cold advance gives you. Sometimes I forget to turn mine on (mine is set up manual), and it will chug white smoke, but the cold advance usually cleans it right up.

On a side note, as a result of all your exceptional R&D and write-ups, I have Joel building me a big plunger pump similar to yours. I will be going with a HX40W (the one with the 14cm hsg) and a W2A I/C. I have been through all of your write-ups numerous times page by page, thanks for all the effort.

Is it still possible to PM people? I have been off the forum for so long that everything is different.

 

[ak diesel driver]

yes they're called conversations. if you click on a persons name or avatar on the black box that pops up there is a "start a conversation" that you can click on

 

[n8in8or]

Nate, you will notice a big improvement with the 3-4 degrees the cold advance gives you. Sometimes I forget to turn mine on (mine is set up manual), and it will chug white smoke, but the cold advance usually cleans it right up.

On a side note, as a result of all your exceptional R&D and write-ups, I have Joel building me a big plunger pump similar to yours. I will be going with a HX40W (the one with the 14cm hsg) and a W2A I/C. I have been through all of your write-ups numerous times page by page, thanks for all the effort.

Is it still possible to PM people? I have been off the forum for so long that everything is different.

Hi Ratman. I'm so glad you found my build notes helpful! That's all I ever wanted....accurately describe what I have done and the results from it. That way someone would have as much info as possible to decide whether they did or did not want to do the mods that I had done.

I'm sure you will enjoy working with Joel - he's knowledgable, thorough, helpful and a great communicator. I look forward to seeing and hearing how your build turns out! If you have any questions feel free to send me a PM using the method AK shared above.

Oh and thanks on sharing your cold advance experience. I think I'll have to work out fitting the cold advance solenoid with the puff limiter.

Good luck and good to hear from you!

Nate

 

[Ratman]

yes they're called conversations. if you click on a persons name or avatar on the black box that pops up there is a "start a conversation" that you can click on

Thanks AK, -I have been gone way too long, -thanks for clarifying!

I'm sure you will enjoy working with Joel - he's knowledgable, thorough, helpful and a great communicator. I look forward to seeing and hearing how your build turns out! SNIP...
Nate

Nate, yeah, Joel and I spent a fair amount of time chatting on the phone, -I also had a lengthy conversation with Mel as well. Since they are dyed-in-the-wool Ford guys, I just had to razz Mel a bit. I joked and said "man, I can't believe this, the Ford and Chevy guys are working together and getting along" -without ANY hesitation whatsoever, he responded by saying "as long as you are paying me money out of your pocket, we will get along great!!" -too damn funny!!!

They really went above and beyond helping me. They had one marine core in stock, so I bought it and am having them build it. I did not build around 25 psi inlet pressure as you did, but rather 15 psi. I don't think I am quite after all of the fuel that you are running, so I am leaving a bit on the table. According to Joel we should still see 120cc up to 3000. Between 3000 and 3500 it will taper off more than yours, but all things considered, that is still a bang load of fuel. Joel had commented that tweaking the advance setup to work with higher inlet pressures starts to become a very delicate balance and is much more difficult to build (it can be done, but is more time consuming).

I designed my lift-side system around a 60GPH Walbro GSL-391 pump with a Racor 660R, and a Fuelab 51506 3-port return-style regulator. I will have some work to do when I drop the tank to install the return, and braze/solder the AN fittings onto the hard lines on the sender flange. I am going to tap into the vent for the return as there is plenty of room to snake a piece of 3/8" copper down the vent to the bottom of the tank and still have it function as a vent.

I went with a return style bypass because I come from a 30 year background as a pump repair guy (not injection pumps, but every other type of pump you can imagine), and because I am stubborn that way. I like having a return leg because it makes life on the lift pump much easier, -under ALL fuel demand circumstances. Less recirculation, and more cooling usually equals a easier life for the pump.

At any rate, parts have been slowly trickling in, -I am a single dad, so I have dedicated a section of counter space in the kitchen as a staging area for parts as they arrive

I gotta tell ya, it is like being a kid at Christmas time. Every time I think I hear a 4BT in the neighborhood, or see anything resembling a brown truck, I head outside and start foaming at the mouth. More parts should be arriving this week. I then have to decide whether to send Joel my injectors, or have him build cores, -I am leaning toward having him use cores, -just because it is simpler on both ends.

Just to be clear, my intention was NOT to hijack this thread, or turn it sideways, so I apologize in advance.

Rich.

 

[WarWagon]

4 words. Manual glow plug override. More post glow would clean that up completely.

Modern self limiting plugs may have changed a lot, but, IMO Post glow is dangerous. This is from all the 1980's and early 90's glow plug controllers that would have an intermittent ground and glows come on with a up to temperature running engine resulting in the glow plugs being blown clean in half. Post glow is a very quick flash as you notice from the controllers or ECM.

We already know lack of cold advance is the problem. I fight this lack of idle advance in warmer weather upper 30's with the wonky pump I have. (I swear I need to change that out ASAP when I feel up to it...) No doubt oil from shot valve stem seals increase my startup smoke.

Continuing to work around this the OP's and others are correct on needing more heat in the prechambers. I would suggest more glow time, and/or a second glow cycle, not just for the quick to cool off glow plugs, but, the longer time warming the entire prechamber up. Next you need a load on the engine just as soon as the oil pressure comes up: brake stall it at 1200-1500 RPM making sure the wheels don't break loose. Further limit the brake stall time to (IMO 30 seconds) otherwise you risk overheat of the trans oil in the converter. High RPM without load doesn't warm the prechamber up very well so this is why I suggest a load. After the glows warm things up and all 8 are hitting I notice a couple of prechambers quickly cool off at idle and the white smoke starts with the camera bouncing miss. I find the immediate brake stand keeps the chambers hot and re-lights any that went out. Keeps the smoke down for me anyway. After the initial dump truck through a nitro plant sounding startup I can drive off more or less smoke free.

YMMV but you can try a second glow plug cycle while cranking. I have lit the engine off and cuss the controller as it does a full cycle (IMO from the crank signal) with the cold engine running. Did I mention I have burnt out Bosch Duraterms let alone less than 1 year short battery "what life"? So Yes I prefer the brake stand myself...

 

[n8in8or]

Thanks AK, -I have been gone way too long, -thanks for clarifying!



Nate, yeah, Joel and I spent a fair amount of time chatting on the phone, -I also had a lengthy conversation with Mel as well. Since they are dyed-in-the-wool Ford guys, I just had to razz Mel a bit. I joked and said "man, I can't believe this, the Ford and Chevy guys are working together and getting along" -without ANY hesitation whatsoever, he responded by saying "as long as you are paying me money out of your pocket, we will get along great!!" -too damn funny!!!

They really went above and beyond helping me. They had one marine core in stock, so I bought it and am having them build it. I did not build around 25 psi inlet pressure as you did, but rather 15 psi. I don't think I am quite after all of the fuel that you are running, so I am leaving a bit on the table. According to Joel we should still see 120cc up to 3000. Between 3000 and 3500 it will taper off more than yours, but all things considered, that is still a bang load of fuel. Joel had commented that tweaking the advance setup to work with higher inlet pressures starts to become a very delicate balance and is much more difficult to build (it can be done, but is more time consuming).

I designed my lift-side system around a 60GPH Walbro GSL-391 pump with a Racor 660R, and a Fuelab 51506 3-port return-style regulator. I will have some work to do when I drop the tank to install the return, and braze/solder the AN fittings onto the hard lines on the sender flange. I am going to tap into the vent for the return as there is plenty of room to snake a piece of 3/8" copper down the vent to the bottom of the tank and still have it function as a vent.

I went with a return style bypass because I come from a 30 year background as a pump repair guy (not injection pumps, but every other type of pump you can imagine), and because I am stubborn that way. I like having a return leg because it makes life on the lift pump much easier, -under ALL fuel demand circumstances. Less recirculation, and more cooling usually equals a easier life for the pump.

At any rate, parts have been slowly trickling in, -I am a single dad, so I have dedicated a section of counter space in the kitchen as a staging area for parts as they arrive

I gotta tell ya, it is like being a kid at Christmas time. Every time I think I hear a 4BT in the neighborhood, or see anything resembling a brown truck, I head outside and start foaming at the mouth. More parts should be arriving this week. I then have to decide whether to send Joel my injectors, or have him build cores, -I am leaning toward having him use cores, -just because it is simpler on both ends.

Just to be clear, my intention was NOT to hijack this thread, or turn it sideways, so I apologize in advance.

Rich.

I know that feeling well, it's SO much fun when the parts start showing up! I never spoke with Mel, but I did have a few conversations with Joel - they seem like good people and I'm happy to give them my money.

I like how that fuel delivery system sounds. Mind doesn't stay rock steady at 25psi all the time, so I could use a more stable system I think. Maybe you can post your system so I can take notes from you!!??

No worries on derailing, it seemed on-topic to me. Good luck Rich and keep us updates on your progress!

 

[n8in8or]

Modern self limiting plugs may have changed a lot, but, IMO Post glow is dangerous. This is from all the 1980's and early 90's glow plug controllers that would have an intermittent ground and glows come on with a up to temperature running engine resulting in the glow plugs being blown clean in half. Post glow is a very quick flash as you notice from the controllers or ECM.

We already know lack of cold advance is the problem. I fight this lack of idle advance in warmer weather upper 30's with the wonky pump I have. (I swear I need to change that out ASAP when I feel up to it...) No doubt oil from shot valve stem seals increase my startup smoke.

Continuing to work around this the OP's and others are correct on needing more heat in the prechambers. I would suggest more glow time, and/or a second glow cycle, not just for the quick to cool off glow plugs, but, the longer time warming the entire prechamber up. Next you need a load on the engine just as soon as the oil pressure comes up: brake stall it at 1200-1500 RPM making sure the wheels don't break loose. Further limit the brake stall time to (IMO 30 seconds) otherwise you risk overheat of the trans oil in the converter. High RPM without load doesn't warm the prechamber up very well so this is why I suggest a load. After the glows warm things up and all 8 are hitting I notice a couple of prechambers quickly cool off at idle and the white smoke starts with the camera bouncing miss. I find the immediate brake stand keeps the chambers hot and re-lights any that went out. Keeps the smoke down for me anyway. After the initial dump truck through a nitro plant sounding startup I can drive off more or less smoke free.

YMMV but you can try a second glow plug cycle while cranking. I have lit the engine off and cuss the controller as it does a full cycle (IMO from the crank signal) with the cold engine running. Did I mention I have burnt out Bosch Duraterms let alone less than 1 year short battery "what life"? So Yes I prefer the brake stand myself...

Gosh, who knew cold starts were such a contentious topic!! Good observation on it hitting smoothly and then the prechambers cooling off. I've tried power braking before to try to load the engine, but not as quickly as you suggested. Also a double cycle isn't a terrible idea either - I'll give them both a try, especially since I don't have to purchase or install anything to do it.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

My lb7 uses conventional 11 volt self regulating glow plugs, has 1 orifice in the nozzle directed directly at the glow plug tip, and federal lb7's keep the glow plugs on for 30 seconds after the engine starts up to 115 degrees engine temp(Cali trucks keep them on for 60 seconds). The glow plugs that were problematic with after glow were the old style non self regulating plugs. Since late 95 GM has used self regulating plugs, so plugs not being able to run for post glow hasn't been an issue in quite some time. I believe that the 96+ 6.5's even use post glow in factory form more so than the earlier obd1 trucks did of just a few quick blips. Most didn't notice it since GM switched from a glow plug light in 95- powered directly off the relay's power output to an ecm controlled light in 96+.