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AMG P400 long block $6950.

For me I want something (cheap fuel) on all the time if possible or at least under very low boost. The idea for me is to burn a cheaper fuel when possible.

Thanks FT I look at the link next.

Damo do you guys run LPG in the 6.5s?
 
I was just googling and saw where he was asking about it. Didn't see where/if he had done it though?
 
Burning oil said:
Just looked at it. I have to say I take it with a grain of salt, they contradicted themselves 2 or 3 times. Also Banks is not in the Propane business and want to sell their stuff. Im sure if they were we would be reading how great propane is from them?

I'm willing to give it a shot, but would really like to hear from anyone that has run it on a 6.5 and what results they had.
Click to expand...

I get you there about Banks. It seems info is all over the place I know diesel buses were converted to CNG in inner cities but lots of info says LPG is a better fuel.
 
Damo said:
I dunno, it seems propane/LPG on diesels is a very old school setup, a few people did it here locally in Australia with mixed results. I still reckon better off with a WMI setup with a progressive kit so you can dial it in that you're not always using the WMI, so it only comes on when you're trying to climb a hill etc.
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Here is low vol high pressure W/I from guys who have been doing it a long time....
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
 
Burning oil said:
For me I want something (cheap fuel) on all the time if possible or at least under very low boost. The idea for me is to burn a cheaper fuel when possible.

Thanks FT I look at the link next.

Damo do you guys run LPG in the 6.5s?
Click to expand...

The 6.5L is not a common engine here in Australia, we don't get Silverado/Sierra here in Australia, they've either been privately imported into the country (mostly 1500s/2500s with the 5.7L V8s) and converted to RHD or at some period through the 1990s were imported by state governments (3500 with 6.5) and used as Ambulances such as the truck I used to own.

Some people have imported those 6.5s from the USA and used them in Toyota Land Cruisers, but its not common here.

I can't talk about propane injection on 6.5s specifically, but it has been done before on diesel Land Cruisers and Nissan Patrols to varying success, some have said it works very well, others say its not worth it:

I have heard engineers from Bosh/Zexel/Denso/Delphi etc... talk about the use of gas with diesel on your average 4x4. They all found that there was no sufficient test equipment available at the time to measure the effects on the engine longevity and cylinder pressures etc...
So instead of leaving it there, they invented the test equipment that now has become the norm for testing new engine longevity under a wide range of conditions, and show the damage cylinder pressure spikes cause.

Their findings showed unless it was injected by using a completely separate injection system, directly into the cylinder at the precise time, it was damaging to the engine. Cylinder pressures were peaking much earlier than they should have been due to the flame propagation increase that came with having lpg in the cylinder and its tendency to preignite made this factor more pronounced.

The tests they found positive results on were stationary engines of fixed rpm generally under 1000rpm, that would have seperate injection systems for the gas, or had control over the diesel injection timing to bring the peak cylinder pressures back to where they needed to be (the latter part of this is crucial as nobody has seperate direct injectors for gas on diesels)

I absorbed hours and hours of data from those conferences, more than I could ever hope to relay in this thread. Im happy to keep giving info or answering questions but I know people can get all defensive when they have brought a product and been told its gods gift etc...
Click to expand...

http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/2471130-post14.html

In Australia we don't have "propane" per se available as a fuel for cars, we've got "LPG" which is a 50/50 mix of butane and propane readily available at sevos, which is what has been used in so called "diesel gas" conversions ("gas" is what we call LPG locally).

Might be better off with a WMI kit instead, its more commonly known and used system, especially in the USA, it was worth 6KW at the wheels on a dyno when my diesel Focus was tuned, and it was added in after the tune, so that gain was just from the water/methanol mix being injected rather than the car being more aggressively tuned.

While I can't give you personal account of a propane/LPG setup on a diesel engine, I can certainly share a success story of a WMI setup on a diesel engine.
 
Seeking info on P400 heads please, are there any identification markings stamped into the heads to indicate their genuine P400 build heads.
Does anyone have experience in using electric water pumps in place of the mechanical water pump and electric fans, is it a viable effective option to persue.
 
Doc Davey said:
Seeking info on P400 heads please, are there any identification markings stamped into the heads to indicate their genuine P400 build heads.
Does anyone have experience in using electric water pumps in place of the mechanical water pump and electric fans, is it a viable effective option to persue.
Click to expand...
I know on the DURAMAX, several tried electric water pumps, and most have switched back after numerous head gasket failures with them. As to electric fans, you will not find a pair that can move what a stock 21" DURAMAX fan can. So if you can't keep cool with a DURAMAX fan blade, an electric fan setup will fall WAY short.
 
On my hopped up 6.5 drag truck I ran twin single port pumps- no good for more than 5 minutes. Just run the balanced flow waterpump with the spin on fanclutch and duramax fan.
No 12 or 24 volt fan can produce the needed air flow.
 
Doc Davey said:
Seeking info on P400 heads please, are there any identification markings stamped into the heads to indicate their genuine P400 build heads.
Does anyone have experience in using electric water pumps in place of the mechanical water pump and electric fans, is it a viable effective option to persue.
Click to expand...
I suspect you have a 6.5 in some conversion and its tight up front between the radiator and fan assembly. I've seen some individuals have extended the front grill assembly out so they can move the cooling stack forward for more clearance in some applications. Consider a good sized aux/remote engine oil cooler w/thermostat controlled fan will take quite a load off the diesel's overall operating temps..
I know it gets much hotter there down under than here in the states so you might want to entertain water-less coolants...
 
Doc Davey said:
Seeking info on P400 heads please, are there any identification markings stamped into the heads to indicate their genuine P400 build heads.
Does anyone have experience in using electric water pumps in place of the mechanical water pump and electric fans, is it a viable effective option to persue.
Click to expand...
P400 does have identifying marks on them. It is a paint code they use and some machine marks.
In pics below you see a part #. Also the two splotches of paint to the right and the machined dots one on each side of the bolt hole. This is how AMG IDs the P400 head amongst their heads.
They also have a casting # but the same casting is used in the Optimizer. Only difference being the P400 has hardened valve seats vs induction hardened.
DSCF1312.jpg DSCF1313.jpg
 
Burning oil said:
P400 does have identifying marks on them. It is a paint code they use and some machine marks.
In pics below you see a part #. Also the two splotches of paint to the right and the machined dots one on each side of the bolt hole. This is how AMG IDs the P400 head amongst their heads.
They also have a casting # but the same casting is used in the Optimizer. Only difference being the P400 has hardened valve seats vs induction hardened.
View attachment 47920 View attachment 47921
Click to expand...
many thanks for your reply Leroy very helpful I will check my p400 engine in the morning, also can you tell me if the thermostat housing comes only as a dual unit on the p400 as standard, Im also seeking supply of two TPS units for the mechanical pumps, I have 2 p400,s will post some pics of our terrain tamers etc there very much a custom build dedicated to extreme 4WD in our deserts etc
 
FellowTraveler said:
I suspect you have a 6.5 in some conversion and its tight up front between the radiator and fan assembly. I've seen some individuals have extended the front grill assembly out so they can move the cooling stack forward for more clearance in some applications. Consider a good sized aux/remote engine oil cooler w/thermostat controlled fan will take quite a load off the diesel's overall operating temps..
I know it gets much hotter there down under than here in the states so you might want to entertain water-less coolants...
Click to expand...
Yep now your talking my language FT and the FEM and will L, keeping coolant temps out of heart attack territory has been a very real challenge to say the least with genuine 56 deg C (133 F)` summer ambient temps towing a 2 ton trailer through heavy soft sands and over 30 ft sand hills. And yep your right for thinking why the bloody hell would anyone do that , we supply essential services to the remote desert aboriginal communities once a month on average for approx. 21 day trips, the bulldust is like talcum powder and when hitting the bulldust holes it rolls up and over the truck in slow motion like waves, needless to say we spend lots of time blowing out air filters,etc.
Sorry off topic a bit there lads but just to paint a picture of the engineering challengers that we have to manage to achieve the reliability to get us back home.
I have come across the waterless coolant articles a while back it sounds a very good invention but do we have enough anecdotal evidence about its effectiveness and its downsides if any.
I certainly get the oil being used as well as a secondary coolant system, that's in our design DNA.
As the square face area for the radiator is only 20 x 20 inches at the doghouse tunnel this area is suitable for the charge air intercooler only .
In summer the first two feet above the blistering sand is heart attack temperatures so we have re-designed a 2.5 inch thick cross flow radiator with three separate circuits for auto tranny(4l80e), oil and engine coolant that fits into the sun visor and is 6 ft long, 18 in wide made of ally. 40 gal/pm electric water pumps 20ff for engine glycol circulation one at engine outlet and the other up top on the downward supply side.
the engine oil cooler is a tube in shell heat exchanger mounted near the engine and is supplied with glycol flow from its own 38 gal/min electric pump.
Auto tranny same as engine oil cooling set up but only 5 gal/min pump.
4 x 16 in spahl 12 volt electric induced draft fans mounted on top of radiator .
t/stat controlled temps all round.
digital variable speed temp controller on fans and engine glycol cooling electic pumps, thermostats removed and impellors on mechanical water pump ground off and bypasses in t/stat housing blocked off.
I welcome your feedback.
 
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