A military rebuilt 6.5

[n8in8or]

Ones senses are more attuned when making major changes so a small miss on an old motor will often seem 'worse' with a new/different one...especially when one is expecting old issues to be solved by the change in power plants.

My truck ran a little 'odd' or rough during break in and for the first couple thousand after swapping engines. It smoothed up after getting the IP timing set. My injectors were balanced prior to installation.

If the old tune and new tune still have the miss, then you've got something else going on. Mine has always had an occasional 'skipped beat feel' regardless of motors, tunes, turbos, injectors, air cleaners, fuel, IPs, and FWIW I'm currently running Heath's HT-4 cam.

That is absolutely true, the senses are definitely heightened when changes are made. That's why I don't trust myself right now.....is the shake/miss getting worse, or am I just paying attention to it more and more? I can definitely feel it at least through 2000 rpm, so it worries me. I will get the TDCO set and that can at least rule that out.

I have the old tune in still and it felt a little worse to me in my 5 minute drive to work, so they jury is still out on whether the problem is less with the old tune or not. Yeah, I don't think the tune is the problem, but it is interesting that it changes with the tune. If it continues to be less with the old tune, then I think that is a clue.

 

[pacificdrumma]

Factory rockers are 1.5:1 I think or something like that, and Harland Sharp ones are 1.6:1 which will exaggerate the effects of a cam slightly. FWIW.

 

[n8in8or]

Cool, just did not recall the injector history. Given that the shop did not report any issues during the pop reset is a good sign to me.

Have read where 2500 is probably the upper limit for the DS4 and even at that pop level the IP might have a challenge at higher power requests. At this stage of the game though, not sure whether it is worth worrying about as long as they all look good from an injector balance perspective / test. Natrually, am sure the better experts will correct me.

Scuttlebutt on the India parts is they are actually good, just not as good as the German counterpart; but *way* better than Brand X. In any event, it is looking like the German parts are increasingly rare and the India counterparts are the way to go now. IIRC, Leroy is keen on a newly discovered manufacturer in Italy.


Got my marines from a local injector shop. The same one that sold me the aftermarkets 10K miles ago. And the same shop 10K miles later that then asked me where I bought the aftermarkets when they were sent-in for a simple reset of the pop to 2300, but were discovered as trashed . . . This time around I gave them the Bosch part numbers that I expected and am presuming that I got what I paid (and asked) for . . .

It sucks you can't readily see the important part of the injector without taking it apart. Perhaps I am stressing the IP too much with the higher pop? Can an imbalance come from the IP? The IP has a date of 2008, so it is a newer one and it is a Stanadyne tag, so that seems promising. Sounds more and more like the TDCO needs to be done so it's at least ruled out, then less variables to look at. Again, if it's just the way it's going to be, then fine, but I don't want to ignore something and have it burn a hole in a piston or something.

 

[n8in8or]

Factory rockers are 1.5:1 I think or something like that, and Harland Sharp ones are 1.6:1 which will exaggerate the effects of a cam slightly. FWIW.

That is true, but in my non-expert opinion it doesn't feel like a cam issue. It feels like 1 cylinder isn't doing what the others are doing, so unless the cam was ground wrong I'm not ready to blame the cam yet though it can't be ruled out. It just doesn't act like gas engines I've had with cams.... they were a little erratic at lower RPMs and then cleaned up, this is a rhythmic shake/miss that stays there even as the R's increase. Also I feel like it wasn't there when I first started up the engine and then showed up after turning it off one time. At first I just thought it was some air that got trapped that still needed to be worked out, but it's still here 200 miles later. Can springs break in injectors? If so, then I could have 1 that's popping early relative to the others, and with my higher pop pressure it would be more likely to stress a spring. Just thoughts. I appreciate the feedback guys, keep it coming!

 

[Burning oil]

My first question after you got it running was "did you time it" Not sure its your issue, but have to start there first.

 

[n8in8or]

My first question after you got it running was "did you time it" Not sure its your issue, but have to start there first.

Not yet. I just got an appointment for Friday afternoon to have it timed. In the meantime I'll try cracking lines to see if I can isolate a cylinder.

 

[n8in8or]

I drove the truck during lunch and the old tune definitely shakes/misses less. Then I thought that the old tune must have the old TDCO value saved in it right? Whereas the new tune has the TDCO value that it learned from the current IP position. So I'm hoping that when I have the TDCO relearned and set this Friday perhaps I'll be more like the old tune is?

Since I can still feel it a little with the old tune, and kind of could with the old engine too, perhaps I have a slightly funky injector and the new tune with the new TDCO value is making it worse. Or maybe I should just stop talking and wait to see what happens on Friday.

 

[ak diesel driver]

On my phone so I can't see signatures. If this is obd2 the tdco value would be whatever the tuner put in. It won't relearn on its own.

 

[JayTheCPA]

How about setting the KOKO TDCO re-learn?

From the descriptions, it seems like the IP is within range as I am not reading any description of 'extra clatter' coming from the motor while it is under moderate load. Worst case, if the IP is out of range, it will set a code the next time the ECT reaches 170F where the bonus is that it will give something to fix (or not). If it does set an out of range code, I'd consider parking it until ready to correct the IP.

My vote is to set the TDCO re-learn and then see what the injector balance report looks like to isolate whether it is a fuel flow issue.

 

[n8in8or]

On my phone so I can't see signatures. If this is obd2 the tdco value would be whatever the tuner put in. It won't relearn on its own.

I've had that same problem, it would be nice to see signatures on our phones. It is an OBD2 truck. That's interesting....there is a process you're supposed to go through with the Heath tune that says something to the affect that it will learn where the pump is, right or wrong. I don't have the sheet in front of me, but I can type the exact verbiage later. It tells you to turn the key on, but without starting the engine and letting it sit for at least 5 minutes. Then you turn the key off for at least 1 minute. Then you can start the vehicle. I'm not sure what it's doing during that time, but I figured it had something to do with the TDCO learn, but I'm not wise in the ways of these things.

 

[n8in8or]

How about setting the KOKO TDCO re-learn?

From the descriptions, it seems like the IP is within range as I am not reading any description of 'extra clatter' coming from the motor while it is under moderate load. Worst case, if the IP is out of range, it will set a code the next time the ECT reaches 170F where the bonus is that it will give something to fix (or not). If it does set an out of range code, I'd consider parking it until ready to correct the IP.

My vote is to set the TDCO re-learn and then see what the injector balance report looks like to isolate whether it is a fuel flow issue.

I had heard of the KOKO TDCO re-learn, but it sounded like you needed an interface in order to see what it's doing. I have to drive it about 10 miles to get to the shop where my brother works, so I think I'd rather not risk making it worse before then by doing the KOKO and then have to drive it with it potentially being worse.

I will see if he can do the injector balance report after setting the TDCO though, that looks like really good info to have.

 

[SS FORCE]

I've had that same problem, it would be nice to see signatures on our phones. It is an OBD2 truck. That's interesting....there is a process you're supposed to go through with the Heath tune that says something to the affect that it will learn where the pump is, right or wrong. I don't have the sheet in front of me, but I can type the exact verbiage later. It tells you to turn the key on, but without starting the engine and letting it sit for at least 5 minutes. Then you turn the key off for at least 1 minute. Then you can start the vehicle. I'm not sure what it's doing during that time, but I figured it had something to do with the TDCO learn, but I'm not wise in the ways of these things.

If memory serves Heath suggests this only to have the computer run its initial diagnosis/communications processes. He also suggest doing the TCDO after install.

 

[n8in8or]

If memory serves Heath suggests this only to have the computer run its initial diagnosis/communications processes. He also suggest doing the TCDO after install.

Thanks for the info, SS. I'm convinced that the TDCO is the next thing to try. I should have done it before now and saved some of this headache and wasting of peoples' time.

If I had the tool myself it would have been done. I hate not having my own tools to do a job! I think tonight I'll work on the old laptop to see if it's healthy enough to run Car Code. I'll still have my brother do it Friday, but if I have Car Code I can do future maintenance myself.

 

[n8in8or]

There are a few applications that can time your pump, I use Car Code OBD-2 because it has device controllers other units don't have however in 32 bit only is great for data logging too.

Hey FT, can you shut off individual cylinders with Car Code? Also, can you check injector balance?

 

[JayTheCPA]

The 5 minute KOKO sequence (actually, IIRC it is 10 minutes) is for the PassLock re-learn.

Setting the TDCO re-learn KOKO sequence is easy:
- Simultaneously press the throttle to 100% and turn the ignition to 'On' (DO *NOT* start); hold the throttle at 100% for at least 45 seconds (I usually go with 60 Mississippi's).
- Simultaneously turn the ignition to 'Off' and release the throttle (0%); sit this way for at least 30 seconds (I usually go with 45 Mississippi's).
- Start the truck and drive normally (recommend to not idle).
- When the ECT reaches 170F, the TDCO re-learn will trigger and the ECM will capture the physical orientation of the IP's position; going forward it will use this position for real-time timing adjustments (per the data curves). When the TDCO re-learn triggers, you might hear a different sound signature and possibly a stumble. With the P-400 it just made a different sound signature.

Hey FT, can you shut off individual cylinders with Car Code?

From what I have read, CC can do individual injector shut-off.

 

[FellowTraveler]

Hey FT, can you shut off individual cylinders with Car Code? Also, can you check injector balance?

It is imperative you do the time set & TDCO if you don't have the ability then make sure the fuel solenoid on IP is horizontal 'straight up/down' as the starting point for KOKO.

Yea, each cyl can be shut down however cyl balance takes hold right away and makes diagnosing a PITA.

A diesel acts differently than a gasser as there is no throttle plate or vacuum a bumpstick would be less an issue in a diesel unless ground wrong. I suspect a lazy injector or maybe tappet.

 

[FellowTraveler]

Did you ever figure what broke that lifter guide, or?

 

[FellowTraveler]

Factory rockers are 1.5:1 I think or something like that, and Harland Sharp ones are 1.6:1 which will exaggerate the effects of a cam slightly. FWIW.

More lift!

 

[n8in8or]

The 5 minute KOKO sequence (actually, IIRC it is 10 minutes) is for the PassLock re-learn.

Setting the TDCO re-learn KOKO sequence is easy:
- Simultaneously press the throttle to 100% and turn the ignition to 'On' (DO *NOT* start); hold the throttle at 100% for at least 45 seconds (I usually go with 60 Mississippi's).
- Simultaneously turn the ignition to 'Off' and release the throttle (0%); sit this way for at least 30 seconds (I usually go with 45 Mississippi's).
- Start the truck and drive normally (recommend to not idle).
- When the ECT reaches 170F, the TDCO re-learn will trigger and the ECM will capture the physical orientation of the IP's position; going forward it will use this position for real-time timing adjustments (per the data curves). When the TDCO re-learn triggers, you might hear a different sound signature and possibly a stumble. With the P-400 it just made a different sound signature.




From what I have read, CC can do individual injector shut-off.

Ooh that is easy, thanks. I'm still nervous about doing it then having to drive it.

 

[n8in8or]

It is imperative you do the time set & TDCO if you don't have the ability then make sure the fuel solenoid on IP is horizontal 'straight up/down' as the starting point for KOKO.

Yea, each cyl can be shut down however cyl balance takes hold right away and makes diagnosing a PITA.

A diesel acts differently than a gasser as there is no throttle plate or vacuum a bumpstick would be less an issue in a diesel unless ground wrong. I suspect a lazy injector or maybe tappet.

Did you ever figure what broke that lifter guide, or?

Ok thank you. When I mounted the IP to the engine I used the indentations on the old gasket as a guide. I measured the gap on each side of the stud and set it based on that. I should be pretty close but it could certainly be off. I also suspect an injector or lifter but since it changes with the tune I'm leaning more toward injector...which makes me happy since I am not a fan of pulling a valve cover on our diesels.

Nope I haven't really looked into it further to see why it happened. I did look at #8 cylinder closer though and I'm not sure how savable the block is. It has a crack starting at the bottom which could probably be rectified by cutting that section out and then chamfering, but there are also some weird marks on the cylinder horizontally that look suspicious to me.