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Working on a "next-level" fuel system

spdgofast

Active Member
Messages
207
Likes
74
Location
Florida
#61
The guy at Fass said I should use one of their pumps with the regulator but I would like the regulator just before the IP after my final fuel filter. He may have told me the pressure specs but I forgot and I didn't write it down. I will find out the specs.
 

spdgofast

Active Member
Messages
207
Likes
74
Location
Florida
#62
Sorry, I found my notes, I believe that FASS P/N RPFA 1007 is a adjustable pressure 125 GPH @60 PSI this pump needs to be mounted horizontally, price is $375.00. I believe it is the pump used on the 94-98 12 Valve Cummins P pump. The reason it's cheaper than what's listed is that it is a pump only with no "mount kit" with hose, fittings & bracket. I was surprised to hear that the Dmax OEM replacement pumps are under 10 psi.
 

n8in8or

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,620
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2,869
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
Thread starter #64
The guy at Fass said I should use one of their pumps with the regulator but I would like the regulator just before the IP after my final fuel filter. He may have told me the pressure specs but I forgot and I didn't write it down. I will find out the specs.
Yeah Ratman said the regulator should be as close to the IP as possible as well. This makes sense to me as it would give the most consistent pressure to the IP. As a side benefit I believe it would also keep the fuel circulating in a loop closer to the IP so you’d have cooler/fresher fuel available for the IP.....if that makes any sense. Just a thought.

Sorry, I found my notes, I believe that FASS P/N RPFA 1007 is a adjustable pressure 125 GPH @60 PSI this pump needs to be mounted horizontally, price is $375.00. I believe it is the pump used on the 94-98 12 Valve Cummins P pump. The reason it's cheaper than what's listed is that it is a pump only with no "mount kit" with hose, fittings & bracket. I was surprised to hear that the Dmax OEM replacement pumps are under 10 psi.
Yeah I’ve found a few different replacement pumps of theirs with various pressure and flow ratings, but not much info on their site. Interesting it has to be horizontal.

I tried to search that part number but it didn't pull up but I did get a better link in regards to pumps and such, I wonder if the 01-16 Dmax may be lower pressure than the 12 V cummins, it shows one with a 95 GPH but none of them say pressure specs.

Here's 3 pages...
http://www.fassfuelpumps.com/search.php?search_query=rp+fa+1007&Search=
I’m guessing Dmax is lower pressure because it has that engine mounted pump that makes all the pressure. It must not need much supply pressure and/or it must not give much or any benefit to crank up the supply pressure.

Honestly I’m feeling more and more hopeful about my Raptor pump being adequate for now after reading some of the info that has been shared in links in this thread. A well designed suction tube along with a good return style regulator I think are going to go a long way for that pump. But if you have to buy a pump anyway, then yeah you should try something different. Or at least the 150 Raptor, but I’d rather not have a pump with a built in regulator that you’re just going to bypass anyway.
 

Will L.

Well-Known Member
Messages
8,205
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7,534
Location
Boulder City Nv
#65
Wow. Amazed at the lack of knowledge/ info from the supplier.
Whenworking out any new system, make it a point to not call until pen and paper are infront of you. Always start with the name. In this case it would be to never waste time with that guy again. Remember they are a business that hires and fires people. So getting someone that know their stiff is key.

I would start by calling them back and demand “I need someone who knows how to build a complete working system that can answer technical questions and issues as I have already spent money with you guys on parts I can’t use.”

Once you get someone who knows whats up, go from there.
Their videos are kinda informative, sorta. Leading with 1 guy that has 1 year experience and the other has a whopping 1.5 years on their marketing video is, well, intersting. Not bad if target market is kids still in high school. Anyways...

Yes 90* angles are not friendly, but disturbances of flow may be more desirable than lowering the fuel tank or a custom tank. The restrictions in flow of a hard 90 can be accounted for and overcome, espeusince the volume and pressure required here is not that big compared to many other engines. Nice long bends whenever possible- heck yeah!

The pressure regulator mentioned that has increased pressure set by boost could be useable if it fits your design, but for the db you need to find a regulator that has an absolute high setting down stream of it. You have to talk tl one of their knowledgeable people to find out which one that is, if they offer one. Our system is an outdated one compared to rails, so finding one that is designed for diesel could be impossible. There wasn’t one when I was running the beefed up units. I found one that was for gasoline but was rebuildable. So as the diesel mucked it up, I had to rebuild it once a month. I also used gasoline fuel pumps which never lasted 3 months.

The idea of a surge tank is helpful for the once in while issues. The accumulator is similar, but can be the difference of a system when lift pump pressures can’t be obtained. Dual accumulators in tandem being fed pressure by the power steering pump maybe could do it if feed by the higher volume, lower pressure pumps that are otherwise good simply need a boost.

I feel like the abacus guy trying to talk laptop. I just have no clue what is currently available.
If you can find 1 pump that can supply the volume at half the pressure...2 pumps get it done with proper regulation.

If I were in your guys’ position, I would be kicking the door down of @greenmeanh1 - if he flat out says no- find someone that understands electronics. ALL dc motors are reversible and variable speed by default. Infact most variable & reversable ac motors are dc motors with ac specs applied.
I don’t know enough on motor control to understand how to put a rheostat inline and get it to control flow properly.

There is no such thing as a “x” pressure pump. Either impelled or positive displacement. Regardless, Pumps are volume machines and pressure is a byproduct of resistance to the volume. Up the volume in the same size line and you’ll get your pressure. It just may take bigger or more pumps at once to do it.

My big expensive dream for a 6.5 would be a dry oil pump system. They have stages, and one could easily be the fuel pump. Amazingly better oiling, less shear drag, crankcase in vacuum, oil pressure high enough to filter 1/10 micron through a cf. a stage to replace power steering pump and take its location. I just need dadsy warbucks to buy it for me- haha

Dang it wish I had stayed on top of this stuff.
 

WarWagon

Well it hits on 7 of 8...
Messages
8,526
Likes
3,144
Location
AZ
#66
@Will L. You are on to something. I had this sitting around for the Dodge diesel until I realized the 6.7 damper would fit around it, but, the clearance to the fan was a no-go.

Make it a "Belt-Fed" diesel with a mechanical lift pump. I am sure you can buy just the pump and adapt it to our engine just like the Cummins as we have 4 bolts on the crank - hell @Burning oil could make you a one off crank pulley that has a little pulley machined on it.

The big thing with this pump is it varies the output with engine RPM just like the IP nose cone vane pump does. More RPM means the IP pisses out more fuel through the return. So a variable with engine speed pump makes more sense. There may be wonderful reliability from the variable speed system another member posted, but, it's still electronic, still depends on Fing brushes in the pump, and every dammed wire, fuse, relay, and connection to the lift pump. I have killed all I mentioned many times. Electronic reliability like a PMD...

Referencing GDP Diesel: GDP Fuel Boss Mechanical Lift Pump System. Oh yeah need more fuel get different drive pulleys...
https://www.glacierdieselpower.com/...s-fuel-boss-mechanical-lift-pump-systems.html

M1123.jpg


M2057.jpg
 

n8in8or

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,620
Likes
2,869
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
Thread starter #67
@Will L. You are on to something. I had this sitting around for the Dodge diesel until I realized the 6.7 damper would fit around it, but, the clearance to the fan was a no-go.

Make it a "Belt-Fed" diesel with a mechanical lift pump. I am sure you can buy just the pump and adapt it to our engine just like the Cummins as we have 4 bolts on the crank - hell @Burning oil could make you a one off crank pulley that has a little pulley machined on it.

The big thing with this pump is it varies the output with engine RPM just like the IP nose cone vane pump does. More RPM means the IP pisses out more fuel through the return. So a variable with engine speed pump makes more sense. There may be wonderful reliability from the variable speed system another member posted, but, it's still electronic, still depends on Fing brushes in the pump, and every dammed wire, fuse, relay, and connection to the lift pump. I have killed all I mentioned many times. Electronic reliability like a PMD...

Referencing GDP Diesel: GDP Fuel Boss Mechanical Lift Pump System. Oh yeah need more fuel get different drive pulleys...
https://www.glacierdieselpower.com/...s-fuel-boss-mechanical-lift-pump-systems.html

View attachment 53904


View attachment 53905
That’s a cool idea!!
 

n8in8or

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,620
Likes
2,869
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
Thread starter #68
@Will L. You are on to something. I had this sitting around for the Dodge diesel until I realized the 6.7 damper would fit around it, but, the clearance to the fan was a no-go.

Make it a "Belt-Fed" diesel with a mechanical lift pump. I am sure you can buy just the pump and adapt it to our engine just like the Cummins as we have 4 bolts on the crank - hell @Burning oil could make you a one off crank pulley that has a little pulley machined on it.

The big thing with this pump is it varies the output with engine RPM just like the IP nose cone vane pump does. More RPM means the IP pisses out more fuel through the return. So a variable with engine speed pump makes more sense. There may be wonderful reliability from the variable speed system another member posted, but, it's still electronic, still depends on Fing brushes in the pump, and every dammed wire, fuse, relay, and connection to the lift pump. I have killed all I mentioned many times. Electronic reliability like a PMD...

Referencing GDP Diesel: GDP Fuel Boss Mechanical Lift Pump System. Oh yeah need more fuel get different drive pulleys...
https://www.glacierdieselpower.com/...s-fuel-boss-mechanical-lift-pump-systems.html

View attachment 53904


View attachment 53905
Maybe a drive could be made that runs through the hole that the oil fill neck sits in and have it drive off of the IP drive gear? Either use the 3 bolts that bolt the gear to the IP or machine dedicated holes for a drive hub. Then make an oil fill neck for a valve cover.
 

Will L.

Well-Known Member
Messages
8,205
Likes
7,534
Location
Boulder City Nv
#69
Maybe You could just replace the idler pulley with the pump. Need to do the math on the pulley size, pump rpm, etc. being able to change pulley diameter on the pump to control set speed ratio. What belt side load are they used to?

Those are nifty little pumps there. A little pricey, I would be calling some pump mfrs and finding a more affordable pump if your going to customize it anyways if they don’t sell just the pump cheap. Idk, it might be thise are gold standard quality and well worth the nickles. But worth researching before buying. Me and my outsated abacus again here not knowing what newest options are.

Is there well known info on lifespan, reliability, homemade knockoff versions, etc of those little guys?
 
Last edited:

Will L.

Well-Known Member
Messages
8,205
Likes
7,534
Location
Boulder City Nv
#70
Thinking about it, I would still like to see in cab control of final fuel pressure/ volume to ip after ANY KIND of pump system.

an electric controlled globe valve? Globe valves last I knew were still the most accurate flow control valves out there,
Pricey though.
 

Will L.

Well-Known Member
Messages
8,205
Likes
7,534
Location
Boulder City Nv
#71
Those belt driven pumps are just adapted oil/ hydraulic pumps. Gear positive displacement high heat pump with viton seals. Sounds like generic cooking oil pumps to me.

Determine what the max pressure (30psi?) and gph requirements are. Most small pumps like that are used to 1750 rpm range max because they normally mount to a small electric motor. But rpm range is easily altered with pulley size.
 

FellowTraveler

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,522
Likes
1,709
Location
Nature Coast
#72
Maybe a drive could be made that runs through the hole that the oil fill neck sits in and have it drive off of the IP drive gear? Either use the 3 bolts that bolt the gear to the IP or machine dedicated holes for a drive hub. Then make an oil fill neck for a valve cover.
Perhaps, the oil pump drive can be used too............
 

FellowTraveler

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,522
Likes
1,709
Location
Nature Coast
#73
@Will L. You are on to something. I had this sitting around for the Dodge diesel until I realized the 6.7 damper would fit around it, but, the clearance to the fan was a no-go.

Make it a "Belt-Fed" diesel with a mechanical lift pump. I am sure you can buy just the pump and adapt it to our engine just like the Cummins as we have 4 bolts on the crank - hell @Burning oil could make you a one off crank pulley that has a little pulley machined on it.

The big thing with this pump is it varies the output with engine RPM just like the IP nose cone vane pump does. More RPM means the IP pisses out more fuel through the return. So a variable with engine speed pump makes more sense. There may be wonderful reliability from the variable speed system another member posted, but, it's still electronic, still depends on Fing brushes in the pump, and every dammed wire, fuse, relay, and connection to the lift pump. I have killed all I mentioned many times. Electronic reliability like a PMD...

Referencing GDP Diesel: GDP Fuel Boss Mechanical Lift Pump System. Oh yeah need more fuel get different drive pulleys...
https://www.glacierdieselpower.com/...s-fuel-boss-mechanical-lift-pump-systems.html

View attachment 53904


View attachment 53905
All that money and then you get cheap ass 90 degree right angled fittings instead of proper AN fuel fittings.
 

n8in8or

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,620
Likes
2,869
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
Thread starter #76
I’ve been thinking about the fuel filter between the tank and the lift pump. Tight now I’m using a filter base with I think 1/2” NPT fittings (maybe 3/4”? I don’t recall and don’t have it in front of me at the moment. Regardless it isn’t 1” I know that). I really like the idea of a full 1” ID suction tube setup - it may be overkill, but it would give all the capacity I would ever need for whatever the future holds. So I’m going to need a different filter base. I found the Baldwin FB1307 that has 1” NPT fittings. It pairs with a BF915 filter with drain that flows 25 GPM.....more than enough. It looks to be about the same package size as my existing filter, too, so that’s nice.


Baldwin FB1307 Fuel Storage Tank Filter Base https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001O4GS20/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_eqtLBb99V6FHY

Baldwin BF915 Fuel Storage Tank Spin-On with Drain https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001JQPW2A/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_GqtLBb9W7GZ82

http://www.baldwinfilter.com/literature/english/4 Stuffers/Form101.pdf

For my pre-IP filter, I think I’ll stay with my FB1311 base and Cat 1R-0750 filter.

Baldwin FB1311 Fuel Filter Base https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00171NUR6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_RstLBbVZ83EKS

Caterpillar 1R-0750 Advanced High Efficiency Fuel Filter Multipack (Pack of 1) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00T85IQOA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_JttLBbCB9T6J7

I currently have that mounted off the front of the engine by the AC compressor, but I’m contemplating moving it. I’d like to get as much stuff out of the engine bay as possible so I have more room for playing with turbo plumbing.
 

FellowTraveler

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,522
Likes
1,709
Location
Nature Coast
#77
I’ve been thinking about the fuel filter between the tank and the lift pump. Tight now I’m using a filter base with I think 1/2” NPT fittings (maybe 3/4”? I don’t recall and don’t have it in front of me at the moment. Regardless it isn’t 1” I know that). I really like the idea of a full 1” ID suction tube setup - it may be overkill, but it would give all the capacity I would ever need for whatever the future holds. So I’m going to need a different filter base. I found the Baldwin FB1307 that has 1” NPT fittings. It pairs with a BF915 filter with drain that flows 25 GPM.....more than enough. It looks to be about the same package size as my existing filter, too, so that’s nice.


Baldwin FB1307 Fuel Storage Tank Filter Base https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001O4GS20/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_eqtLBb99V6FHY

Baldwin BF915 Fuel Storage Tank Spin-On with Drain https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001JQPW2A/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_GqtLBb9W7GZ82

http://www.baldwinfilter.com/literature/english/4 Stuffers/Form101.pdf

For my pre-IP filter, I think I’ll stay with my FB1311 base and Cat 1R-0750 filter.

Baldwin FB1311 Fuel Filter Base https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00171NUR6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_RstLBbVZ83EKS

Caterpillar 1R-0750 Advanced High Efficiency Fuel Filter Multipack (Pack of 1) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00T85IQOA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_JttLBbCB9T6J7

I currently have that mounted off the front of the engine by the AC compressor, but I’m contemplating moving it. I’d like to get as much stuff out of the engine bay as possible so I have more room for playing with turbo plumbing.
Check out Raycor marine diesel filtration too, good deals can be found on used systems
 

spdgofast

Active Member
Messages
207
Likes
74
Location
Florida
#78
Hey guys, I just saw that the FASS adjustable lift pumps have a boost compensation port which is one of the reasons I wanted to use a regulator, along with the ability to add a return. A couple of concerns I have with this is if the pump is located let's say where the OEM pumps are located on our trucks how responsive will the boost compensation be if the boost pressure line is let's say 4 foot? Could I still run a return without a seperate regulator or restriction device to maintain pressure? Would a return be necessary? The only reason I am looking at this pump is for it's broad pressure range of 0 to 60psi, (if info provided is correct) which in Nate's case he may be needing 30 -35psi and I have not found any other diesel lift pumps as small as this one with these pressures. Maybe use this pump along with a regulator with a return may work, just brain storming.

http://www.fassfuelpumps.com/search.php?search_query=rp+fa+1007&Search=
 

n8in8or

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,620
Likes
2,869
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
Thread starter #79
Hey guys, I just saw that the FASS adjustable lift pumps have a boost compensation port which is one of the reasons I wanted to use a regulator, along with the ability to add a return. A couple of concerns I have with this is if the pump is located let's say where the OEM pumps are located on our trucks how responsive will the boost compensation be if the boost pressure line is let's say 4 foot? Could I still run a return without a seperate regulator or restriction device to maintain pressure? Would a return be necessary? The only reason I am looking at this pump is for it's broad pressure range of 0 to 60psi, (if info provided is correct) which in Nate's case he may be needing 30 -35psi and I have not found any other diesel lift pumps as small as this one with these pressures. Maybe use this pump along with a regulator with a return may work, just brain storming.

http://www.fassfuelpumps.com/search.php?search_query=rp+fa+1007&Search=
If those pumps do have a fuel return port (I didn't see it mentioned in the text - was it that port that is plugged that's in line with the other ports?), then it could be a viable option. I still like the idea of a separate regulator that is closer to the IP though. You bring up a good question about the boost reference being so far away from the source - I'm not sure if that would be an issue or not. There could be a little lag I guess over a run of tubing that long.

I think a return is going to be an important part for a fuel supply system that performs well. I think about the video you shared us showing the importance of a return that is submerged. That was a TON of fluid that it was returning back to the tank. Now think about that not being returned back but instead staying inside the pump and recirculating somehow. That sure seems like a lot of unnecessary work that pump is being asked to do - not to mention how much the fuel is being beat up inside that housing and having heat added to it. That's just my thought process though, it may not be accurate.
 
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