p400 on order, Looking for pointers before install

[98HMC4]

The reason I'm over here is I have a 1998 Hummer H1 thats finally decided to let go somewhere, i have a ton of combustion gasses in my coolant system, blowing white smoke with a misfire at initial start up till about 20-30 seconds in.
Rather then work with this problematic setup i decided to grab a P400. Im trying to make the truck as reliable as possible







Current setup-
Factory 1998 6.5L TD
Full open Exhaust
Factory H1 intake
Rubberduck4x4 Intercooler
Rubberduck4x4 Remote PMD Black Box -#7 Resistor
Heath/RubberDuck PCM tune
Turbomaster ~12PSI
Injection pump has less then 3k miles on it - DS4 (Been running this PMD for now w RD4x4 as a backup)

So far on the list for the new setup

-p400 - RubberDuck4x4 (had calls in to a few places, Travis called me first so he got my business)
-Exhaust manifolds, elbows, clamps - Purchased NOS
-ARP Head Studs - Ebay
-Fluidampr - Not yet purchased
-OPSU, CLT, other sensors etc - Not yet purchased

Is anyone running the Leroy billet crank pulley?



My biggest questions and reasons I'm here are:

Cooling -
Whats my best options as far as cooling this thing, what water pump and fan setup runs best?
I was suggested a GEP18000449 water pump and 6009991 clutch, with newer style fan.

and lets talk fueling and turbo -
I have a company a few hours away (Turbo Resource) thats willing to do upgraded wheels (billet compressor, upgraded turbine) clearance the housings, rebuild center if needed, etc. for about half what I've seen some competitors advertise things like a "super 77" for. the turbo is not to make big power. i dont want to run extreme levels of boost, the truck has enough power for what i was doing with it before but the p400 can get a little more and be plenty safe so why not. I'm shooting for the 18psi range.

Fueling -
I have the fairly new DS4 - Im NOT looking to make this truck a monster just run happy, and RELIABLE.

Is a DB2 a better way to go? whats involved? pedal, throttle cable, db2 pump, lines? sensor changes?

Are the H.O. injectors proven better?


Does anyone Run a different head gasket? is there a better option? or is the p400 ready to go from GEP?




If anyone has any suggestions by all means lets here it. thats why i came over here was to learn.


Hope ya have a good day,
J


Remember, Not looking to make max power, just a happy, reliable truck.

 

[WarWagon]

HO injectors: you mean Marine? The Marine injectors do not last as long as the standard injectors as members have posted. @bobbiemartin wrote a DB2 conversion guide http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/the-db2-conversion-guide.30127/

Love the DB2 as it will run without Bulls#it fishbite, stalling, PMD intermittent failure, etc. till it runs out of fuel. All you have to do is get it started. You can make a DS4 reliable with a remote PMD etc and IMO they do start better with high miles. But the programmed fishbite to test sensors or from any issue what-so-ever will piss you off. (Fishbite is a single miss without a stall.)

Turbo Resource is an outstanding place for turbo work and have a good reputation from Dodge Cummins forums. The factory turbo is DONE at 14PSI. Any more boost is achieved by heating up the air. TR can advise you of the changes they can make and if 18 PSI is reasonable esp with backpressure (drive pressure) of the small GMx turbo's. You are low RPM/Speed off road so a small turbo is a good choice. On Road High RPM, over 2000, is a choice for a bigger turbo. Your options are limited.

I would put gapless rings in the P400 as it keeps the oil cleaner: see my signature. ARP Head studs sealed in the block with blue locktight is IMO required. Felpro head gaskets are all you need.

 

[Nessmuk]

Cooling is everything to durability, plus lubrication.
Cool your coolant, your oil, your atf, your steering, your air.
Use rotella old school 15-40 for the zddp. Add lubricant to your fuel with a db2 pump. Synthetic atf.
Filter everything. Oil bypass, cooling bypass, steering, transmission.
At least that's my thought on it, for whatever that's worth.
When you start upping boost and fuel, you need a pyrometer, head studs, a free flowing turbo and exhaust.
I'm not a fan of computers, but gave up and put in a transmission that uses one.

 

[Will L.]

Everything I could find the super 77 is a wicked wheelII in a gm6/7, no more. So yea, better than stock gmX turbo, but grossly understized for out cubic inches. And as WarWagon points out the astma attack gm hack job- a real turbo lets it work much easier, more power, more mpg, longer life, less stress on the heads/ headgaskets, better in every way. And WarWagon and most others here are pickup guys so they don't live at the constant high rom like we do in hummers- where a big turbo really shines. We drive on the freeway at 2700-3000 rpm- WAY past the choke point of the gm turbos. To put it in perspective- the Honda and Toyota guys like the gm4-8 turbos for there 2.2 liter 4 cylinders. Long term think turbo- but as of yet the best hummer upgrade turbo is the switzer s300/s400 hybrid which is about the same as an hx35/40 hybrid-still too small for anything above 3600rpm. Leroy is still in the test and fit phase is my guess.

If I had the money how would I do it?
Gapless top rings, loosest fit tolerance secondary rings. Felpro headgaskets. Balance rotating assy. HS 1.7 roller rockers. 303 or 311 german bosch injectors balanced at 2350. Flow the heads.
Full ceramic coating on all bearings and wear points including oil pump gears and timing gears(sctrailrider has a thread or two here about his).

Speaking of timing gears instead of the only diesel engine on earth that is supposed to move a 15,000# rig that has a timing chain- SMH. Get the timekeeper gears from Leroy, along with the fluidampr and his pulley- the sorryazz rubber pulley is stupid. I made my own years ago when racing the 6.5. Mine was way better than GM's and Leroy's is nicer than mine was.

Get the bosch duraterm 80034 or AC Delco 60G plugs in there.


Idk the cut off year hummer for the waterpump upgrade- but get the spin on waterpump, if your 6.5 has it you are golden. If not then speak up & I'll tell what else is needed with it for hummer. If you do already have it, the one thing you wont have is the restrictor in the 1" line from dual stat housing to the waterpump- Leroy/ Mod Mafia make the one to get. Otherwise you need the infamous gm 23500374 single stat block off crossover.

Kennedy Diesel is the only good option for fanclutch right now. Don't waste your time on anything else- even factory ones suck at best.
Before buying, call Leroy, who is I believe nearing testing completion of a 100% lockup fan clutch. This is way huge. Hmmwvs overheat near instant with the hummer fanclutch when they are loaded down. The spin on waterpump with the hmmwv fanclutch is the ultimate dream that if it were up to market would be $2500-$3000 as a kit, so build your own like I am going to do or get the Kennedy one until Leroy comes out with the electric (instead of power steering fluid) 100% lockup unit.

The next thing is back to expensive coatings for the radiator. On aluminum radiators- 33% increase in efficiency. Yep!! 33% "larger" radiator in the same space from a specialized "paint". Not cheap, but on my list. Think about doubling your over all cooling capacity- between the spin on waterpump, 100% lockup fanclutch, and coating the radiator it will literally double the cooling capacity for hummers. No more overheating.

Replace the lift pump with a real one, and include a fuel pressure gauge in the cab. Clear tubing on the return line out the Ip. Not all really part of the engine, but needs saying as often as possible.

Move the ops to the right front location, and use a relay.


Db2 vs ds4. I am probably the most outspoken ds4 hater anywhere. Couple good things about them that if you do not take advantage of then you have no business owning one.
1. Programing from Kojo he is the best.
2. WMI. Being able to run wmi controlled by the pcm/IP is really nice. WMI on db2 not so clean- more hands on required.

If you have a ds4 on a hummer there is no excuse for not having a second one mounted and ready to go so you just unplug the harness and mive it 6" to the side to plug into the spare. Only reason I give any slack to pickup/ suburban owners is the question of the extra $400 possible investment into a rig with value under $5k. As soon as it is over $8k value- no excuse.

Other than one of the 2 reasons above- dmv not allowing a conversion in your area is the only acceptable answer for owning a ds4 imo (notice not a humble one).

Ds4= less power, less mpg, less reliability, more expense, more headaches, worse diagnostics, less fuel compatability, blah, blah, blah. They loose every catagory, period. If you have to have it, then at least take advantage of the few things that help it out.

Good news- dont sweat the oil pump. Melling makes them all, so you are set there. Just add a centrifuge when it goes together and it will be a happy little engine for amlong time to come.

If I had even more $ to waste? Dry sump oil system. If you seriously want to go into that I can.

 

[98HMC4]

Will - Pretty funny you are the person who sent me over this way after asking you question on the HML ha.

-Spin on water pump i believe is what the GEP part number i provided is -
Radiator - ill be replacing mine, it had been repaired and most likely when it ran with a hole in it was the cause of the engine not holding on much longer.


Gapless rings - Not so sure I'm sold on this. It places all pressure from combustion gasses into the ring lands, A proper filtering oil system should be able to greatly help the dirty oil issue.
Change the oil frequently with good filters, youre better off then any other 6.5 and some of them have been running for over 300k...... Theres no sufficient evidence that the gapless rings are the cats ass.... sorry, I come from higher performance education then this and i can say ring gap is a very crucial area when building an engine, However. A Rule of thumb - Decreasing ring gap - increases piston ring land pressure, and cylinder pressures. IM not looking to make a power monster, the blow by is acceptable, and creates less resistance on non power strokes of the engine - Hence easier engine to spin.

Im all for balancing, hs rockers would be cool but not sure if that a priority off the bat. bearings yes, time keeper yes


why are you suggested getting the heads flow tested.....They should flow within a few cfm of stock p400 heads, Whats your logic here?

plugs - already have new 60g

DB2 conversion sounds good, still not sure if i will go this route - may wait and run the truck for a bit (i have extra pmd's already mounted and a near new ds4 on my current 6.5)


OPS relocation sounds good-


Lift pump - whats the thesis here, i come from gas where we want high pressures most of the time etc.... I've read about the DS4 having a max inlet pressure of (~10psi? ) please correct me if I'm wrong

Injectors - balanced at 2350 - is this pop pressure?


This engine will likely never see more then 100k miles in its life in the H1, Thanks for your help. getting this stuff dialed in is pretty easy just referencing with others before i pull the trigger on supporting parts

 

[schiker]

The max fuel inlet pressure for the DS pump is flexible up to 15 psi or a little more (Not sure of a max for DS pump - DB pumps reference housing pressure so are more sensitive to inlet pressure) The DS pump likes being overfed. Flow is more important than pressure but a min pressure of of 2-3 psi under any and all conditions is the goal. Prefer 5-7 psi pressure as minimum all conditions. There is a feed the beast mod that opens up the passage ways of the fuel manager. The stock lift pump can go out and you not know it without a fuel pressure guage and pressure is good to know for diagnostics of filter clogging.

Better pre-filtering the fuel with a better water separator is a good idea. The standyne filter is not a good water filter.

Gapless rings appear to be a good fit for the 6.5. It keeps the oil cleaner and adds a tiny bit more power. The low oil volume contaminates quickly especially with the crud that stays in the oil cooler that instantly contaminates fresh oil at changes. The 6.5 if it hasn't been ran hot will likely still have cross hatching in cylinders with high miles. So I believe you are not likely to over stress the ring lands. If you are only worried about 100K miles why not go with gapless.

I like things to compliment each other in a build. The P400 I think has a bit less compression than your OE 6.5. Want to lower it a bit more I would like combo .010 thicker head gaskets with the gapless rings. Thinking here better compression of gapless rings will help .010 thicker head gasket not that it needs help just good compliment to each other.

 

[Will L.]

On the new radiator- I really would suggest the coating. High expense, but big returns.

Getting the heads flowed was a suggestion of full porting. A better breathing engine is always a good thing imo. Exhaust restriction onnthe 6.5 is a long proven difference. Starting at the source before it goes in is worth while. Read Chris' thread here for a good starting point on the difference, way different than a gasser.

I don't understand the ring land pressure concearn, p400 is way less pressure than older 6.5, and they never had issues. All the pressure is on the rings going to the lands anyways. The added pressure would be minimal. Its not like compression goes up 10psi. Soot getting into the oil is carbon, way finer than any filter can stop. A centrifuge can remove it all if you can get the incoming oil pressure to 90psi. Short of that, if you keep most of it from getting in there to begin with, your better off. The added boost from the turbo would increase the compression pressure more.

Putting a gauge on the liftpump, or experiencing the difference of a real lift pump is what convinces everyone. It is not just about getting extra power. The crappy factory pumps shorten the life of the IP, the little extra ummf is nice though. Yes 9 psi ismwhat stanandyne calls for all time. A ds4 can go near double that without concearn.

Yes the 2350 is the pop pressure. Brand new injectors are frequently found to be 150-200 psi difference in a set. Balancing the fuel balances the power the cylinders make. Imagine your best and weakest cylinders making 10% difference in power- not a smooth running engine for sure. Guys are going to put 300,000 miles on an engine, it makes sense for them to do it themselves. Since you will likely need one set of injectors the whole time you have your hummer, just have a shop do them.

 

[WarWagon]

As I listed the link to Gapless rings showing UOA keeping the soot out of the oil. I ruin engine oil. I have scuffed pistons and ruined the engine from oil failure. Like Will I have looked at the limit and gone over it winning carnage threads with the results. I am not the only one seeing the benefits of Gapless rings.

Reducing pressure by allowing more ring leakage is a messed up idea. Low tension rings reduce friction, but, don't work for high compression diesels specifically ours. More leakage is just that. Overheated rings also reduce compression due to leakage and can push the dipstick out from added blowby. Gapless rings increase compression numbers like 10%. If you have more blowby you get more oil mist out of the CDR leaking out of the intake. My MPG and oil consumption numbers are the same for a "on fire" blowby engine and and no blowby engine working hard due to evaporation of the oil off hot heads. 1 quart every 500 miles.

Engine oil fails by going "out of grade" from 40 weight to 50 weight hot. Soot added to the oil from these "dirty" engines via the ring gap is one source. Frankly pushed hard the oil change interval is 2500 miles (by the book) with 3000 miles FAILING THE OIL! Yes, the extra 500 miles is too much! I have changed the oil 2x a week in the past due to 550 miles or more a day towing. Overheating the oil also burns (cooks) it and takes it out of grade as well.

The biggest thing you will notice with gapless rings is 30,000 miles later (run the rings for 30,000 miles) changing the oil at 3-5K is the ability to see the marks on the dipstick under the engine oil: even oil that has 3000 miles on it. Normally after starting the engine after an oil change the oil is too black to see the marks. Having torn many 6.x engines down that amount of soot covering everything inside the engine is just NASTY. The oil simply can't handle the soot load of low pressure injection IDI design. Go NA or add extra fuel where you see visible smoke from the exhaust the abrasive soot load goes through the roof. Only now that I run 5000 mile oil changes do the marks get difficult to see. (As Patch is semi-retired some years I have to change the oil at 3000 miles because it's a year old. This year I have 5000 miles on the oil and am waiting on the results.)

Blowby indicates the health of a 6.x engine. I have 30,000 abusive miles on the gapless rings. The only blowby I can see is from removing the CDR. There is no blowby from the oil fill tube. I only deglazed the cylinders when I put them in. The slight vacuum and lack of crankcase pressure keeps oil leaks to ZIP ZERO! As you know the main reason for rebuilding/overhauling a 6.x engine is ring failure or headgaskets/cracks. I have only seen one engine with shot main bearings. So putting gapless rings on a known fast wear area extends the useful life of the engine and allows you to extend oil change intervals. The savings in engine oil can pay for the gapless rings if you get 5000 miles vs. 2500 miles out of the oil.

As an aside some people instantly kill the rings by allowing the engine to go somewhere over 210 degrees. This affects IDI engines and specifically the 7.3 Ford Diesel as well. Overheat it once and you get immediate blowby. I have no info if gapless rings do any better as the cause is loosing ring tension from the high heat. I suggest they are the same rings with the gapless rails put in so they will also suffer.

On a new engine you can remove the 2nd ring and send it to Total Seal to be made gapless for around $100.

 

[Nessmuk]

An oil bypass filter would be a help on the spot issue. I found the aluminum radiator leaked when it rubbed on stuff. I went the opposite direction. I put in an industrial cored radiator. The brass is heavier. It likely oils a little less. It's four rows with the ho pump and fan, plus all the aux coolers, so I think it'll be fine. It should last the life of the truck, and should be easy to solder if it does get a hole punched in it. Aluminum is a britch to patch, at least to me.

 

[Will L.]

When you mount a centrifuge on the engine, it functions as a bypass filter. There is no actual filter on earth that can remove the soot. Having a single filter to catch the big stuff then a centrifuge to get the fines will cover all the bases.

 

[FellowTraveler]

I'll bring it up, "EVANS" waterless coolant IMO is perhaps the best cooling system mod I've ever done. While there are some risks involved using it as some will point out on this site. I look at the whole risk factor as compared to getting the benefit of extended service waterless coolant.

I would be remiss not to point out that using a block heater w/EVANS is a fire risk so a heat exchanger like Espar for heating coolant is a must.

I have run my 6.5td more than a few times at operating temps everyone says are dangerous with no ill effects using EGW mix back in the day and a good radiator to pull the heat from the EVANS helps.

I'm not sure your vehicle has the internal t-case cooling if so I suspect EVANS would help that too. I have seen some fabricate a stand alone cooling system for the t-case.

 

[Will L.]

Hummer t-case is cooled with atf so no concearn there.

The evans issue is it's flammability. I know a couple of people that are victims of the fires from it.

If you eliminate the block heater that is one part. The other is eliminating the heater core. Gasoline is far more dangerous, but it never enters a passanger cabin. If you eliminate the heater core and used electric heaters or the ones that burn diesel fuel and pump the hot air inside then Evans would be more safe to use. Could be a single heat exchanger that does both might be a viable answer- heat exchanger that the water side loop into the heater core, and has a block heater in it?

The only other drawback is needing to carry the spare bottles incase of coolant loss from an offroad excursion misshap, and it is a little pricey.

 

[FellowTraveler]

Hummer t-case is cooled with atf so no concearn there.

The evans issue is it's flammability. I know a couple of people that are victims of the fires from it.

If you eliminate the block heater that is one part. The other is eliminating the heater core. Gasoline is far more dangerous, but it never enters a passanger cabin. If you eliminate the heater core and used electric heaters or the ones that burn diesel fuel and pump the hot air inside then Evans would be more safe to use. Could be a single heat exchanger that does both might be a viable answer- heat exchanger that the water side loop into the heater core, and has a block heater in it?

The only other drawback is needing to carry the spare bottles incase of coolant loss from an offroad excursion misshap, and it is a little pricey.

Cabin heat like the old exhaust heat exchanger boxes used on military trucks.

I don't feel the heater core is much of an issue because EVANS is non-corrosive while the oats EGW eats right through them...however an exchanger inside the engine bay and pump to pump safer coolant through interior cores is a good idea for maximum safety.

 

[98HMC4]

Fellowtraveller
i appreciate your input, but there are safer alternatives with results then making my truck even more unique with waterless coolant and then be out in the middle of the desert off road with issues. no waterless coolant this time


Will - Porting heads is a different story then just flow testing them, Yes theres benefits there, now you're talking performance mods though.

My 6.5 with the heath tune had just the right amount of power for what i wanted. i could get it to go 80mph (intercooled already) down the road if wanted. I could crawl wherever i wanted.

a little quicker spool to help with BTM (brake torque modulation - Hummer stuff) would be ideal. aside from that I'm not trying to port heads, or do anything big performance wise. Yes i understand porting the heads will increase flow, help with spool, etc.
Aren't the p400 heads supposed to flow better then the old 6.5 ones anyway? ill already be ahead of where i was, and with an updated wheel in the turbo will be even better off.








ill put a cummins in my hmmwv slant back and pump the hell out of that chassis for fun thats down the road after the h1 gets back on the road.

 

[98HMC4]

Also,

Is the FRP-10 lift pump setup the way to go?
Id like to add in more filtering as well - Any suggestions?

or could i achieve all of this with a FASS setup?

 

[JayTheCPA]

Whatever the decision on lift pump, just make sure it is a flow-on-fail design. The Walbro pump is a flow-on-fail. Reasoning is that if the LP dies, the injection pump is strong enough to still pull fuel and get you home without really noticing it.

As commented in the thread already, a pressure gauge (as close to the IP inlet as possible) is a good thing to monitor.

IIRC, the running favorite for fuel filtration is to have a 30 micron element just upstream of the LP and then the OE filter just prior to the IP.

 

[WarWagon]

This engine and pump isn't so sensitive to dirt like HPCR, but, water is bad news. I recommend adding a water separator like the CAT 256-8753 fuel/water separator prior to the lift pump. Other dedicated separators are out there and work. Heat the fuel/filter if your climate requires it as gelling happens at the first and all filters. I have had good luck with the FRP-10 (and FRB-5) lift pump, although not perfect, they have lasted me the longest time of the collection I have in the lift pump graveyard of mine.

 

[Will L.]

Yeah the head porting was what I meant- and yes the p400 is better than the older 6.5 for flow. Not needed, just an option.

Yes the wicked wheel and any flow improvements made inside the turbo housing will help with spooling.

Wmi with methonal in the water will help spool up also.

Once the hummer is done and you do the cummins hmmwv, sell the 6.2/6.5 parts - don't trash em.

 

[Nessmuk]

Can you grind the heads and exhaust manifolds to match the gaskets? That's all I did.
No knowledge re an oil centrifuge. The Frants filter is what I was thinking.

 

[Will L.]

"grind the heads" just sounds scary- even though it is acurate... . Yes gasket matching helps, but is nothing like having them fully done professionally. Kinda like a back scratch from the wife, vs a masseuse.

Very familiar with Frantz filters. They are good, but not a centrifuge. At full Speed the cf will remove ALL the soot. 0.25 micron is way smaller than a Frantz can get. CF does 0.10 micron. I would rather a Frantz than nothing though.