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Total Seal Gapless rings?

WarWagon

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Any comments about using a gapless ring set in a turbo 6.5? (Yes my 6.2 turbo hybrid needs a ring set.)

Curious about power, MPG, blowby vs. standard gap rings. Will be used for towing...

Do they have a 1st/top ring gapless set vs. the 2nd middle gapless ring? I would be concerned about unseating the top ring with a second one being the gapless ring.

Running 12-14 PSI on a GMx and about max fuel for a DB2.
 

3500GMC

What T F, over
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Any gapless set that I've run across, the 2nd ring is the overlap 'gapless' ring. The top ring on our 6.2/5 is a keystone style ring. Not a good ring to go gapless.

I've heard of cases where combustion gasses being trapped between the 1st and 2nd ring *in some apps* can unseat the compression ring.
 

buddy

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I have absolutely no experience using them, but do intend to use them when I need an engine to put in or when I get around to building up an engine for fun. Obviously the fun priority is low. I was planning to use whatever Diesel Depot uses, as I intend to have Jamie Avant do some custom work on my pistons.
 

WarWagon

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Any gapless set that I've run across, the 2nd ring is the overlap 'gapless' ring. The top ring on our 6.2/5 is a keystone style ring. Not a good ring to go gapless.

I've heard of cases where combustion gasses being trapped between the 1st and 2nd ring *in some apps* can unseat the compression ring.

Ah yes, I see there is a soot issue that the top keystone ring has to clean off itself... Good answer as to why only the 2nd ring is gapless.
 

WarWagon

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After putting the Total Seal Gapless ring set in I am impressed with their performance as advertized.

I have run 80 gal of fuel through the engine. 100 miles initial oil change after install on a clean engine with dirty used heads. I have 1500 miles on the engine oil now.

Now I am chasing a leak down from the overhaul. At first I thought it was a fuel leak and did correct a fuel leak on the #2 injector return line. It did not stop the leak. The drops are a light brown like the biodiesel I am running. So I have checked every fuel line 5 times and find no other leaks. The turbo drain looks like it is leaking at the hose clamp and in fact is leaking.

Pulling the engine oil dipstick indicates a severe problem with the 6.2 engine. :eek: Although it has oil pressure the oil pump drive shaft must be missing and letting the oil just sit in the pan. After 1500 miles the oil is still as clear as when I put it in! :skep:

So the fuel leak I thought I had is in fact an oil leak - but rather than the carbon black oil leaks I am used to it's is leaking clean colored oil. No wonder I missed it. I did not expect the oil to stay this clean for this long and never had this happen with any 6.5/6.2 after a rebuild etc.

:thumbsup: So I believe it when they say cleaner oil from their gapless ring set. However, clean for weeks I did not expect in any way shape or form!

The engine has zero blowby from the oil fill cap as expected with new rings.
 

buddy

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Thank You for the feedback on those, sounds like a good investment. How much did the set cost, and is it one or two rings for each piston?
 

uniquediesel

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The main thing is that these rings are file-to-fit.

You MUST file the Gap size of these rings otherwise you'll be eating the cylinder walls and rings because the gap will be too small.

You can also have Total Seal convert your existing Mahle rings in a ring set for a new set of rings/pistons.

I've got one of these engines runing a set. I don't have this engine using the CDR. all Blow-by is just vented, makes very very little blow-by.
 

bobbiemartin

Author of The DB2 Conversion Guide
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Actually Total Seal sells a gapless top ring now. Don't know if they have it for the 6.5's. They have info on their website. I looked at them for my engine, but was quoted $100 per cylinder for just the rings, so I gave it a miss. I have a set of second rings for an engine I will be building soon (not a 6.5, not even a Diesel). I will probably look into the gapless top ring before I build and get a set if not too expensive. Its much smaller than a 6.5 and only half the cylinders, so hopefully will be cheaper.
 

WarWagon

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I found a set of rings for $320 and made my favorite mail order price match. They run around $500 for a set of 6.2 rings. I just deglazed the cylinders as the block has cracks. Yes there is top end wear and I should have gone 10 oversize. So the cylinders are not ideal.

The top ring can't be gapless due to the amount of soot they deal with as posted above.

Bio makes no difference on soot, as the fuel is turned up enough to make even that smoke, and the first 1000 miles was #2 with 30 weight and 2stroke in it for the new injectors.

Looks like I will get my money back in extended oil changes.

Here is a photo of the dipstick at 2000 miles. It still looks like a gas engine. The rag should be pure black like the suburban engine is.
2K on oil gapless rings.jpg
 

TimT

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You don't want to run a gapless top ring on a boosted application. Air gets trapped between the 1st and 2nd ring which will unseat and flutter the top ring. Total will tell you this outright.
 

schiker

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You don't want to run a gapless top ring on a boosted application. Air gets trapped between the 1st and 2nd ring which will unseat and flutter the top ring. Total will tell you this outright.

I don't know about gapless rings but this made me go hmmmm how does air get trapped between 1st and 2nd ring? How can the air tell the difference between boost and combustion forces? I would think combustion would be so much greater air pressure it would not matter?????

Now if you said with boost pressure the rings would seal too good and not allow oil to penetrate between the top rings as good such that it will accelerate wear I can see that.
 

TimT

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I don't know about gapless rings but this made me go hmmmm how does air get trapped between 1st and 2nd ring? How can the air tell the difference between boost and combustion forces? I would think combustion would be so much greater air pressure it would not matter?????

Now if you said with boost pressure the rings would seal too good and not allow oil to penetrate between the top rings as good such that it will accelerate wear I can see that.


Combustion pressure builds between the 1st and 2nd ring. When it does this it will make the top ring flutter. The ring fluttering really messes up the ring groove. I've tried it everyway and the gapless 2nd ring works. The gapless top doesn't seem to transfer heat to the cylinder wall very well either, Better off with a good steel ring for that.
 

TheTransportGuy

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I have used the gapless 2nd rings on several of my gas motors over the years and they have less leakdown than when using a standard ring set. My overall cranking compression went up 10psi in an otherwise healthy motor. They work for sure in gassers. I have never used em in a diesel.
 

turbovanman

I has boost, :O)
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My GEP build is getting these, Total Seal will convert your new rings for around a $90, you send them the 2nd ring set. Should really help keep the bad stuff from the WMO out of my crankcase.
 

WarWagon

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I just realized this is a 4 year old thread. So WarWagon, how have those those total seal rings been holding up?

Matt

4 years and 21K miles. Although I only put on 3K last year. So far oil changes UOA are soot free (Soot=0), no blowby, and I can still see the markings on the dipstick. I just put the Yank high stall converter behind this engine.
 

WarWagon

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4 years later: UOA for Gapless rings.
Note I started running 15w-50 in the engine so the lab was confused. Stepping up a grade is normally oil wearout/failure.
Silicon is from the make a gasket in a tube I used on the engine. When that trend spikes I know there is a air filter or intake issue.

Using many different oil brands (bad idea) so this makes seeing a trend harder.

1993gapless_rings.jpg
 
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