Going mechanical with a Moose Omega Marine IP

[FellowTraveler]

They seem to have a really good reputation in the Ford world.

$900 + $200 core.

When you do the math it's a big bang for the bucks expended excellent indeed.

 

[FellowTraveler]

That's some nice numbers from the db2. I never knew about the ability to make changes that allow for higher fuel pressure.

Watching excitedly...

I suspect the DB2 can take the extra pressure because of it's robust design. The DB4 is nice too however it may be hard down low on a road vehicle but I'm by no means the expert on it.

 

[n8in8or]

I'll sell you a core pump for $100 if you happen to need one[emoji4]


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Thank you for the offer. My Optimizer had a usable core on it so I used that.

What core are you using for the pump ?

They accepted my regular DB2 as the core (I don't remember the model at the moment, it was the standard one for NA military) even though it wasn't the same as the pump they were building for me.

Core marine? Nate is that the 4 plunger pump? DB4?

Nope, my core wasn't a marine core. The pump is still a DB2, but with larger plungers.....don't quote me on these numbers, but I think the marine has .330" plungers whereas standard DB2s have .290" plungers. I asked him early on if what they build for higher output is the DB4 and he said while you can get a lot of fuel out of a DB4 due to the greater number of plungers, they have found that they're not as durable. They can build even hotter pumps than what they are providing me by doing a lot of custom machining, and they still use a DB2 as the base. They can get somewhere around 205mm^3 out of a DB2 with what they have developed. He said they built one for a guy with a 7.3IDI that was going to run compound turbos. He said the guy was struggling to get enough air into it and then he didn't hear any more from him. If I recall, he said they set that one up to run 60psi inlet pressure in order to aid fueling on the top end. He said that was on the ragged edge of being able to maintain a good advance curve. It would sure be fun to try to build a no-holds-barred engine to try to use on of their hottest pumps! I wonder how far you could push a P400 if you could manage to get enough air through it......

Try military surplus for the brackets.

My Optimizer came with a couple brackets, but of course nothing that will accept cruise control. I snagged a pedal, cables and brackets off of a typical 90's Tahoe with a Vortec 5.7. I figured this is the most common setup to start with so it would be most informative to modify that to work. If it doesn't work then I'll do something else, but I wanted to start with that and see what can be done.

I suspect the DB2 can take the extra pressure because of it's robust design. The DB4 is nice too however it may be hard down low on a road vehicle but I'm by no means the expert on it.

Yeah it sounded like the DB4 is not as robust a design internally, which I can imagine because it has a lot more going on inside without a whole lot more real estate. There's another company (R&D Performance?) that specializes in DB4 builds. They were on my list of people to talk to when I wanted a hotter pump for the Ho, but once I spoke with Conestoga and found out what they could offer me for the money, I was sold.

 

[3500_6.5]

Yes, R&D was who I was looking into using before I got my marine pump and had Unique Diesel build it. They still use a db2 as their base but "convert" them to a db4 for there higher output pumps. His smaller pumps (110cc and under I believe) are still db2. The 150 and 180 pumps are the ones he builds a db4 head for.


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[FellowTraveler]

Thank you for the offer. My Optimizer had a usable core on it so I used that.



They accepted my regular DB2 as the core (I don't remember the model at the moment, it was the standard one for NA military) even though it wasn't the same as the pump they were building for me.



Nope, my core wasn't a marine core. The pump is still a DB2, but with larger plungers.....don't quote me on these numbers, but I think the marine has .330" plungers whereas standard DB2s have .290" plungers. I asked him early on if what they build for higher output is the DB4 and he said while you can get a lot of fuel out of a DB4 due to the greater number of plungers, they have found that they're not as durable. They can build even hotter pumps than what they are providing me by doing a lot of custom machining, and they still use a DB2 as the base. They can get somewhere around 205mm^3 out of a DB2 with what they have developed. He said they built one for a guy with a 7.3IDI that was going to run compound turbos. He said the guy was struggling to get enough air into it and then he didn't hear any more from him. If I recall, he said they set that one up to run 60psi inlet pressure in order to aid fueling on the top end. He said that was on the ragged edge of being able to maintain a good advance curve. It would sure be fun to try to build a no-holds-barred engine to try to use on of their hottest pumps! I wonder how far you could push a P400 if you could manage to get enough air through it......



My Optimizer came with a couple brackets, but of course nothing that will accept cruise control. I snagged a pedal, cables and brackets off of a typical 90's Tahoe with a Vortec 5.7. I figured this is the most common setup to start with so it would be most informative to modify that to work. If it doesn't work then I'll do something else, but I wanted to start with that and see what can be done.

Yeah it sounded like the DB4 is not as robust a design internally, which I can imagine because it has a lot more going on inside without a whole lot more real estate. There's another company (R&D Performance?) that specializes in DB4 builds. They were on my list of people to talk to when I wanted a hotter pump for the Ho, but once I spoke with Conestoga and found out what they could offer me for the money, I was sold.

Your getting me excited here with more ideas, it's been about a week now I have been going without any restrictions imposed by the doctors.....So up and running it is for me now!
GREAT PROJECT THERE INDEED!

 

[Will L.]

For the cruise control -do you already have the new cable/box assembly? The ds4 cruise doesn't work with db2. Bobbie Martin is parting out his db2 truck right now, check with him. I passed on cable/box assembly because the electrical connection is different in a pickup vs hummer. If you do have the cable and need only the bracket still check with him or maybe Unique Diesel. His site says he has lots of parts, maybe he has an old one laying around.

Other than that for the cruise bracket
http://www.hummerpartsguy.com/search.asp?keyword=Cruise+control+bracket&search=
Afaik no vendor here sells them new, if so they are not easily found on their website-I looked. Iirc 1993 pickups were all db2 for parts hunting.

Do you have the throttle bracket?

 

[n8in8or]

For the cruise control -do you already have the new cable/box assembly? The ds4 cruise doesn't work with db2. Bobbie Martin is parting out his db2 truck right now, check with him. I passed on cable/box assembly because the electrical connection is different in a pickup vs hummer. If you do have the cable and need only the bracket still check with him or maybe Unique Diesel. His site says he has lots of parts, maybe he has an old one laying around.

Other than that for the cruise bracket
http://www.hummerpartsguy.com/search.asp?keyword=Cruise+control+bracket&search=
Afaik no vendor here sells them new, if so they are not easily found on their website-I looked. Iirc 1993 pickups were all db2 for parts hunting.

Do you have the throttle bracket?

I grabbed the box from the Tahoe too. I have some info telling how to adapt the standard Tahoe box, and I think Bobbie Martin gave details even, but I thought I would go through the effort myself so this thread could be used as an all inclusive reference if someone wants to see all the details.

I do have a DB2 throttle bracket with the fast idle solenoid. I think I have all the pieces-parts I need to get going on this, but I will report back with anything I find that I'm missing.

 

[3500_6.5]

You're going all in on this it sounds like. I planned on hooking my cruise up but have managed to never get even get around to locating the parts I need. I never bothered hooking up a fast idle or the cold advance. Has started for me every single time except once in single digit weather and no block heater. Just required multiple crank times and a boost from my gasser. It smokes and runs a little rough on cold starts for a bit without any of the starting aides hooked up, but it has always started easier the way it is now than it ever did with the ds4 believe it or not.


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[6.5L]

The DB2 can be upgraded to a better unit with a set of thinner shoes, and a different leaf spring internally. Though, too much fuel, and the internal counter-pressure between the cam pin and the cam ring becomes pretty high. Snapped cam pins start to become more prevalent. And the trick to overcome with the R&D units is the Ford to GM differences. Taking a Ford unit that flows so many cc's and flipping the cam ring will not produce similar results on a GM pump. The head and rotor are different (different discharge port locations), the cam ring is slightly different too. Timing will be way off. Tapering the discharge ports out would help though. Using a GM light load advance piston would help as well, since they are smaller, and have a greater range to vary timing with RPM and throttle input.

 

[n8in8or]

You're going all in on this it sounds like. I planned on hooking my cruise up but have managed to never get even get around to locating the parts I need. I never bothered hooking up a fast idle or the cold advance. Has started for me every single time except once in single digit weather and no block heater. Just required multiple crank times and a boost from my gasser. It smokes and runs a little rough on cold starts for a bit without any of the starting aides hooked up, but it has always started easier the way it is now than it ever did with the ds4 believe it or not.


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Yeah I'm trying to make this a complete and thorough conversion. Since it's my daily driver I really want it to be well sorted and not annoying to drive. When I had the engine out last fall I drilled and tapped one of the rear coolant block-off ports and installed the temperature switch for the cold advance.

Good to know that yours starts well, that is one thing that scared me a little about the conversion. My DS4 starts really awesome right now, despite the lowered compression. I've started it without the block heater at 20F and it still fired right up. I think my 1/0 cables help a lot with that. The extended glow cycle in my tune I'm sure also helps. Since I'll be leaving the computer in place I will still have that benefit, so I hope it still starts really well, or at least not poorly.

 

[n8in8or]

The DB2 can be upgraded to a better unit with a set of thinner shoes, and a different leaf spring internally. Though, too much fuel, and the internal counter-pressure between the cam pin and the cam ring becomes pretty high. Snapped cam pins start to become more prevalent. And the trick to overcome with the R&D units is the Ford to GM differences. Taking a Ford unit that flows so many cc's and flipping the cam ring will not produce similar results on a GM pump. The head and rotor are different (different discharge port locations), the cam ring is slightly different too. Timing will be way off. Tapering the discharge ports out would help though. Using a GM light load advance piston would help as well, since they are smaller, and have a greater range to vary timing with RPM and throttle input.

I would love to open a pump up sometime and see how it operates.

 

[Will L.]

So keeping the computer? I'm confused how that works out.

 

[n8in8or]

So keeping the computer? I'm confused how that works out.

Yup, it's what 3500_6.5 did and it seems to work well. It keeps the ABS and glow plugs running, but without having an IP plugged in doesn't really do anything else. I imagine I'll need to remove the Check Engine light bulb though as I'm sure it will be throwing codes.

 

[pacificdrumma]

Watching this. Very excited. Doing some math in my head, $1000 for pump, $500 for trans controller.... next time my IP goes out I think I know what I'm replacing it with.

 

[Will L.]

Remember to deduct never buying another pmd...

Don't make my mistake of getting rid of all of them, keep 1 for diagnostic of someone needing help. Sell your extras.

 

[3500_6.5]

Watching this. Very excited. Doing some math in my head, $1000 for pump, $500 for trans controller.... next time my IP goes out I think I know what I'm replacing it with.

Buy mine, that will give me an excuse to go bigger[emoji16]. His puts out a few cc more than mine, but I bet if you sent it to the moose guys they could fine tune the pump timing so you can run higher fuel pressures to probably get the same output, maybe more[emoji6]. You know you want to....


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[3500_6.5]

Remember to deduct never buying another pmd...

Don't make my mistake of getting rid of all of them, keep 1 for diagnostic of someone needing help. Sell your extras.

I keep my "spare" PMD in the barn. You never know when a faulty PMD can cause your db2 engine to act up. They're sneaky little bastards. I always keep mine stashed away just in case I need to run a PMD diagnostic....


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[n8in8or]

Buy mine, that will give me an excuse to go bigger[emoji16]. His puts out a few cc more than mine, but I bet if you sent it to the moose guys they could fine tune the pump timing so you can run higher fuel pressures to probably get the same output, maybe more[emoji6]. You know you want to....


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Wow, you would really go bigger? I'm a little worried about using all this fuel, do you think you have room to burn even more? I love it, let's see it!!

 

[3500_6.5]

Wow, you would really go bigger? I'm a little worried about using all this fuel, do you think you have room to burn even more? I love it, let's see it!!

Would I? If I had the chance, probably lol. Should I? Probably not. I would love to try one of the 180+ cc pumps. But that definitely does worry me. Especially since this is a truck that I actually use and isn't just a go fast and show it off truck. I think if I really got to the point of actually going that big, I would do a lot of talking with the people that build them. I know Justin with R&D has ran his pump on his truck so he would have a good idea what it would take to burn all that fuel. But I really have no idea if it would be capable of being a practical pump for a tow rig. Would be cool though!

I'll wait and see how yours turns out first. You've done some things to yours that I did not do before I slapped my pump on, so I'll be curious to see how it affects things and if it gives you more room for more fuel. I'm anxious to see how the precups and your headers do. I plan on doing some pre turbo exhaust work on my new engine, but I don't think it will be quite as extensive as what you did.


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[Will L.]

I keep my "spare" PMD in the barn. You never know when a faulty PMD can cause your db2 engine to act up. They're sneaky little bastards. I always keep mine stashed away just in case I need to run a PMD diagnostic....


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I said "...for diagnostic of SOMEONE NEEDING HELP"

I got rid of my last ds4 truck some time ago, since then I've had 3 people I've tried to help, but since I got rid of my spare, I couldn't swap in to test. That's all I meant.

Quit tryin to confuse me now, I'm trying to watch Roy Rogers on tv. I think Nelleybelle needs a pmd, it's over heatin'. Happy trails to you...