What do you guys think about Water/Methanol kits?

[DieselMike1]

Windshield washer is not a very closely watched fluid. Anything can be in it, not just methanol. Detergents are just one of the bigger issues.

I don't run wmi anymore. Dropped it after a few findings.

The tank and pump are still on my truck though.

They still do.......something......

Please do tell, don't leave us hanging.

 

[Will L.]

What are the findings? Did you just quit because you found a better use, or did you find problems from it?

 

[great white]

I found better gains by not displacing air volume in the cylinder with water. Never was very comfortable with that anyways. I'm well versed with its use (aviation background), just always rubbed me the wrong way. I just never got comfortable with spraying water into a recip engine. Turbine is one thing, recip is quite another. There's also concerns with using water that is anything besides distilled with deposits and contaminants.

It now mists a CAC for better Δ vice air flow alone. Not the same mechanism as injecting it, but well within the comfortable range for egts. That might have as much to do with calibration changes as anything else though. Lots of changes made since dropping the water so it's anyone's guess really. I never looked into it too deeply. Numbers went up on the dyno, so we just moved forward with that. I retained it as a "mister system" since I already had it on the truck and the money was already spent.

If you talk to any of the "water guys", they really try to turn you off on using their systems as a mister instead of injecting it. Protecting their market or sage advice? Dunno....don't care. I'm happy with the direction we went and it works for me. There sure is cheaper ways to mist a CAC though.

But, i will say this; its fun to watch guys looking under the truck for a leak after a hard pull...

 

[great white]

To clarify in case someone asks the question: I wouldn't have put a CAC "external mister system" on the truck if I didn't already have the equipment installed. Not worth the expense.

A good CAC is more than enough for my uses. The mister is just a little bonus since it was all there to start with. All I had to do was route a little hose and install a couple splitters.

It also made me feel a little better to not scrap the custom under bed "side saddle" water tank I built.

 

[Will L.]

Yeah the whole idea of water shooting to the inside still freaks me out. I wish I could fit a cac, all I want is the lower iat/egt. I pull any little hill for a bit and it's like the egt has a bungee cord pulling up my ect- slight time delay then up it goes.

Road trips that I want to use the hummer for are weighed out against how many hills would I have to take at 45-50 mph - basically any road you see a semi slowing down on is enough to heat mine up. It's the same with my gm6 as it was without it- before I didn't have enough power to go fast up the hill and it would slowly heat up from the full or near full throttle load. Now I can fly up the road, but it will heat up if it is sustained more than a minute or two.

Funny, all the other stuff I want to do to the truck is only time/money issue. This is about the only thing I just can't decide on.

 

[JayTheCPA]

I found better gains by not displacing air volume in the cylinder with water. . . . It now mists a CAC for better Δ vice air flow alone. . . . That might [also] have as much to do with calibration changes as anything else though. Lots of changes made since dropping the water so it's anyone's guess really.

For an OBD-II system, any way to get the ECM to account for when WMI is active and when not? Or just run the programming presuming the WMI mechanics work as they are supposed to . . .?

If our rigs could handle a MAF, would this solve the riddle of getting the ECM to work with the actual WMI state? Or is the ECM at its design limits by working with IAT and the MAP?

 

[6.5L]

Some people are secretive for some unknown reason.

 

[great white]

For an OBD-II system, any way to get the ECM to account for when WMI is active and when not? Or just run the programming presuming the WMI mechanics work as they are supposed to . . .?

If our rigs could handle a MAF, would this solve the riddle of getting the ECM to work with the actual WMI state? Or is the ECM at its design limits by working with IAT and the MAP?

Don't know. Never looked in to it. All I've ever really run is water, no real need to frig with timing and fueling on straight water. Played with timing once, but it didn't respond the way a gasser does to wmi so I stopped wasting time on it.

Some did come with a MAF, but I've never worked with one. Had a little interest in it at one time, but never went anywhere with it other than a few mental exercises. MAF was for emissions anyways iirc.

 

[great white]

Some people are secretive for some unknown reason.

People share what they want to. Anything else is nobody's business....some people don't like that.

Meh, whatever.

 

[6.5L]

I've always been into the belief that if people are afraid to share, it's because they'd like to pretend they know something.....Some people don't like that.
Meh, whatever

 

[3500_6.5]

Isn't the idea of wmi, that it is a mist and evaporates when it is injected? You're displacing air, but when it absorbs the heat and is being evaporated, you are adding oxygen into the mix. The hydrogen would displace some I guess, but being that gases can be compressed, everything would just compress a little tighter and oxygen displacement wouldn't really be a factor.


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[Will L.]

WARNING, found my soap box his morning...

That is a neat theory, but not possible. I have to track the temperatures and pressures for splitting water at work every time I run a plant. Inside the engine you are not in an oxygen free environment, so pyrolysis is not possible without chemical stripping. Pressure/vacuum is variable, but even in a gasoline engine where you might theoretically reach the magic 28 hg, all you need is roughly 2800f and depending on volume could finish around 4550f. If you are in a diesel, that vacuum is not going to be there, and if you glance at your boost gauge, you might have a bit of positive pressure there, raising that temperature a bit.

There is a chance that some of the water that hits the metal and gets super heated has a chance of getting to temp for a simple split by the infrared heat, but that small of an amount is never going to be noticed. At a molecular level there is far more variation of butanes and propanes traped within the diesel fuel than you could possibly generate.

Quite simply, if it were possible, all of us would be driving hydrogen trucks and cars. Science has been chasing this one for many years and the closest we've come is hydrogen fuel cells.

So the best you can theoretically achieve from the water is a touch of steam power, but like stated above that comes at the expense of volumetric loss of the cylinders area to allow for flame front expansion. I can't recall the lab that did the test on water injection and showed something like 99.5 % of all gains were able to be duplicated by the lower oxygen temperature, which followed the btu cooling capacity of the water mist in a perfect curb. Basically water mist= colder temp, which allowed for more oxygen into the chamber. That is when power increased in the engine. There was a ratio based on compression ratio, but it was very low. I found that lab work in a couple hours of searching the web on wmi advantages/disadvantages.

I don't want to mislead anyone, or get a backyard experiment person hurt, water can be fractured at lower temperatures under certain conditions, especially the absence of oxygen, but usually requires a tad more heat than is required to flash off the hydrogen, and since the separation can ignite the already hot enough hydrogen, all you need is oxygen- oops- it is now right next to that hydrogen molecule. And boom goes the dynamite, just as fast as it is produced it lights off. Why isn't it a viable fuel? More btu is required to make it happen than it produces- so a net loss occurs, please see E=mc2 for clarification. If you figure out how, you just became a multi millionaire, and will be claiming a certain peace and scientific prize soon.

This is why the power seeking group of wmi starts leaning towards Water Methonal iIjection instead of Water Mist Injection. Methonal is the extra power. Only thing is methonal is too high on the frational ratio chart of comparable fuels for diesels to take much of it without creating multiple flame fronts. Just a bit and the second flame front is close enough to not be noticed as a knock of the piston a the wrong time.

 

[3500_6.5]

Touché . Seems I (we'll say briefly) forgot my high school chemistry.... Water vapor is still h2o, just a vapor, not a liquid. My thought seems logical if you disregard that part of the equation! Guess my memory isn't as good as I thought it was.


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[turbovanman]

Never heard that before, wondering if it kept running or something after the engine was shut off, and slipped past the rings. Either that or he was injecting too much, strange.
By the way TVM, I like your avatar much better here, than the one your using on DP.

He was doing oil analysis, started doing WMI, did a sample, noticed scary readings, changed the oil and filter, stopped using the WMI, resampled, clean, changed oil and filter, fired up the WMI, bad readings came back.