Savanna Camper Project

[btfarm]

So Roy, welcome to The Truck Stop first of all... We began this forum a bit over 10 years ago. It consists of many members that arrived here from other forums as a sort of respite from all the testosterone laden posts elsewhere. We've come to think of our extended group as sort of adult family. Some of us are more wordy than others and we generally don't let anyone get too disrespectful. You must know though, that it's pretty normal for a close knit group to collectively get their hackles up at anyone showing up to dispute well accepted and functional practices out of nowhere. As a retired engineer myself, I am not necessarily disagreeing or agreeing with your post specifics. In fact, I am a Duramax guy anyhow so discussions like this one are merely academic for me. As to the FTB mod, I believe it was originally done by a staff member of much renown who is long gone from here. Your discussion is certainly welcome but the tension created in this thread is a bit uncomfortable for the old guard so please try to understand where we come from. There's an awful lot of common intelligence here that we all cherish. You might want to read the 6.5 checklist and see what you think of that.

Thanks, Mike

 

[Will L.]

Roy, if you won’t try it, you won’t KNOW. You can only assume. I have done it. I KNOW it helps. Your abacus and masters of instruction can convince you, but having done it- you won’t convince me. Allow the op to take in multiple points of view and make his/her own decision is my thought. Especially since you could list the places carb is in effect and the op is not in one of them.

You keep going back to the factory pump. I agree. You are arguing an agreed point. I like to breathe oxygen. If you agree, then we probably should move past that point and not talk about oxygen. So lets move past the piece of crud lift pump. It helps with high volume pumps as well.

My line about newer parts, like using a 2001 part on a 2000 vehicle -was rhetorical. It is legal here, and Ky. If it is illegal there, I feel for you. Imo you should fight to correct that injustice. It is legit almost everywhere else I know of. Must be a bear to buy glowplugs, as they are obviously part of the emmisions system and the orginals are all nla. Same with injectors. Bunch of other parts too I believe. Good thing you are a lawyer to figure out you can replace your injectors but not a piece of fuel line.

On his other thread (again apologies to the o.p. I usually play nicer). He obviously and directly asked how to install the wicked wheel 2 into his turbo. And you offered pretty good description how he should do it. Obviously proofreading it to catch a missed point. Well done...

However, that turbo modification is not a factory part from that year of vehicle. It didn’t exist until after the production of that engine ended. Didn’t you telling him how to do
It open you to some legal risk? I would think since that turbo modification is designed for added power and to burn more fuel at the same rpm and produce far more emmisions than the factory unit does. Especially compared to the larger fuel line of less than a foot which has the sole purpose of keeping lubricant in the ip to ensure the extended factory tolerances does not add to more emmisions and according to you wouldn’t allow more fuel in the ip anyways- you were in contridiction with yourself on not using stock based components.

Heck, it kinda seems like if you were an epa/carb/dot nark- that would be entrapment- ya know? Telling a guy modifying it is illegal then telling him how to do something that is going to have FAR more impact. Idk, I’m just guessing since I’m not a lawyer and all.

I will say engineer education dumped to be a lawyer and working in an injection pump rebuilding shop- quite eclectic! I can kinda relate. I dumped my full ride at MIT to go kill people for the gubmint, then went into a menagerie of professions and businesses I’ve owned. So it’s kinda cool
We both are multi capable individuals. I try not to argue with people often, but when I do it is hard to let it go. Shall we let it go at this point on difference of opinion and let vehicle owners hear from all sides and make their decision?

 

[ak diesel driver]

Most of us on here have real world experience on the mods we do to our trucks. I can tell you from my real world experience the DS4 (if healthy) won't miss a beat if the LP fails. I went thru one a year for 4 years before I got a stock LP that would last very long. Other than checking to see if it was working I had no clue that they had failed. So my real world experience fly's in the face of what your telling people here about the DS4 not running well or dying without the LP working. My failures weren't lower pressure they were complete failures as in no pumping of fuel at all. So just because of a little bit of learning and experience doesn't necessarily mean your opinion/experience is the only valid one. I've got close to 500k driving 6.2s and 6.5s

 

[royunion]

Roy, if you won’t try it, you won’t KNOW. You can only assume. I have done it. I KNOW it helps. Your abacus and masters of instruction can convince you, but having done it- you won’t convince me. Allow the op to take in multiple points of view and make his/her own decision is my thought. Especially since you could list the places carb is in effect and the op is not in one of them.

You keep going back to the factory pump. I agree. You are arguing an agreed point. I like to breathe oxygen. If you agree, then we probably should move past that point and not talk about oxygen. So lets move past the piece of crud lift pump. It helps with high volume pumps as well.

My line about newer parts, like using a 2001 part on a 2000 vehicle -was rhetorical. It is legal here, and Ky. If it is illegal there, I feel for you. Imo you should fight to correct that injustice. It is legit almost everywhere else I know of. Must be a bear to buy glowplugs, as they are obviously part of the emmisions system and the orginals are all nla. Same with injectors. Bunch of other parts too I believe. Good thing you are a lawyer to figure out you can replace your injectors but not a piece of fuel line.

On his other thread (again apologies to the o.p. I usually play nicer). He obviously and directly asked how to install the wicked wheel 2 into his turbo. And you offered pretty good description how he should do it. Obviously proofreading it to catch a missed point. Well done...

However, that turbo modification is not a factory part from that year of vehicle. It didn’t exist until after the production of that engine ended. Didn’t you telling him how to do
It open you to some legal risk? I would think since that turbo modification is designed for added power and to burn more fuel at the same rpm and produce far more emmisions than the factory unit does. Especially compared to the larger fuel line of less than a foot which has the sole purpose of keeping lubricant in the ip to ensure the extended factory tolerances does not add to more emmisions and according to you wouldn’t allow more fuel in the ip anyways- you were in contridiction with yourself on not using stock based components.

Heck, it kinda seems like if you were an epa/carb/dot nark- that would be entrapment- ya know? Telling a guy modifying it is illegal then telling him how to do something that is going to have FAR more impact. Idk, I’m just guessing since I’m not a lawyer and all.

I will say engineer education dumped to be a lawyer and working in an injection pump rebuilding shop- quite eclectic! I can kinda relate. I dumped my full ride at MIT to go kill people for the gubmint, then went into a menagerie of professions and businesses I’ve owned. So it’s kinda cool
We both are multi capable individuals. I try not to argue with people often, but when I do it is hard to let it go. Shall we let it go at this point on difference of opinion and let vehicle owners hear from all sides and make their decision?

Will

You READ in things not written. What I did at the shop is not written or discussed yet you assume something not said.

I have said an IP operates on pressure and not volume so I would never spend time and to do something I know makes no difference when proper pressures can supply proper volume through the OEM line

There is no legal liability to me telling anyone how to install the part, the liability is to the seller of the part or mechanic who installs it. The question is if it exempt as functionally identical to an OEM wheel as the boost and fuel are still regulated by the PCM.

You understand, analyze and write things wrong and on contrived assumptions in your head. Read California's Vehicle Code 27156 and the CCR I previously referenced before writing non-sense interpretation s clearly defined there.

The FTB mod changes fuel line sizes with the intent to defeat or modify the entire OEM fueling system. The wicked wheel is an aftermarket OEM replacement part to an OEM Turbo. The compressor blades are.more aggressive but the seller literature says leave the rest of the fueling system alone so it can work. Thus it is a functionally identical part any really does need an EO to sell the part or in California

However some sellers are frightened and won't ship them into California - and one on eBay says that.

I stated how my Sure Cure Lift Pump was functionally identical

Parts are classified and lawfully sold by OEM declared engine families. The 6.5 GM family went from 1993 - 2002. The 2003 and up Optimizer from AMG is the same engine largely but until an OEM declaration is made by AMG those parts are technically not to be sold and installed on the GM

The OP is in KY which does not address or enforce any of this, so the FTB is unlawful but the wicked wheel is not

Flippancy and snarkiness will blind you and nobody wears incorrect assumptions - especially thinly veiled in an accusation of contradiction

 

[royunion]

Most of us on here have real world experience on the mods we do to our trucks. I can tell you from my real world experience the DS4 (if healthy) won't miss a beat if the LP fails. I went thru one a year for 4 years before I got a stock LP that would last very long. Other than checking to see if it was working I had no clue that they had failed. So my real world experience fly's in the face of what your telling people here about the DS4 not running well or dying without the LP working. My failures weren't lower pressure they were complete failures as in no pumping of fuel at all. So just because of a little bit of learning and experience doesn't necessarily mean your opinion/experience is the only valid one. I've got close to 500k driving 6.2s and 6.5s

I cannot tell what - this post is addressing but I am referring to what a DS4 often will in real world scenarios- and this describes exactly what I have been saying is the result of persitant low inlet IP pressures. I know what it does on the test stand, how hot it gets, and how it delivers fuel

If driving you cannot tell a change in performance then the engine never was running right in the first plac

The OP is new to the 6.5 and depending on the binary in PCM it may behave differently I prefer that my newer PCM code shuts of the engine to keep from damaging the IP running it too dryI

 

[ak diesel driver]

Oh I forgot who I was talking to

 

[royunion]

Above at post 64 should read "Thus it is a functionally identical part and really does NOT need an EO to sell the part or in California"

Sorry I left out the word "NOT"

 

[Will L.]

Guess not on agree to disagree scenario. Ok.

I did assume something not written. My impression was you work or worked professionally in a shop rebuilding injector pumps. Am I wrong? If so please correct me.

I have said an IP operates on pressure and not volume

Umm. Why do the diagnostic procedures from GM before condemning the ip include pressure test in, volume in, and volume out amongst others? When I worked at a dealership, I forgot one time to do the return pressure readings and warranty was denied to the customer until I did the test and included it in the form. I felt bad and paid the added days car rental for the customer myself, so that one sticks in my head. It was pretty dumb of me because I had to have the two rubber line off anyways for the clear pvc tubing for the intrusion tests.

Hmm, turns out I make mistakes. Sucks me being the only one and all.

You said Proper pressure and volume by the factory line- blah blah blah. Crap! You would have been an engineer- SO GLAD you swapped majors. So many engineers that think the labratory is exactly how it always works in the real world.

If the pump is new and at perfect temperature and no vibration, perfect fuel, and happy music in the labratory. If the pump and entire rig works exactly perfect -yes. But deteriorating fuel lines, a bit more water in the fuel, some wear in the ip because it has 235,000 miles on it, maybe some worn injectors that are dumping fuel too long in a couple cylinders and barely in another. Hows about the chemical breakdown that is occurring because of the aluminum housing affecting the biofuel which everyone knows is not supposed to be in contact with non ferrous metals. How about the fact that the viscosity of the fuel has dramatically changed since the books were written. Hows about the massive lubricity losses since then too. Think that has anything to do with ip performance and how the pressure and volume relates.

No? How about in the lab compared to the restrictions in the return line. Often the worn injectors cause more chatter and add restriction of flow along with the alchols in the fuels nowdays that the retuen fuel line wasn’t built for and causes interior degradation plugging the line some. So what happens there... the restriction of flow causes the incoming pressure to increase yet volume decreases. Now because the majority of the retriction is from the injector chatter, it pulses but doesn’t stop flow completely or continuously.

I have seen this multiple times. Also in the high performance applications. Other than rebuilding and replacing the injectors, especially since the allotted pop pressure differences in a set was horrible and the junk from delphi would be pushing the limits all the time. know what fixes it? Keeping pressure the same but increasing volume. Your best friend Boyle says increase the line size to do that. I sure am proud to have invented that fix!

Oh, no, wait, I didn’t. I read it in the generator maunual that had the 6.5s powering them. Ya know why that was more important in the generators not because of annoying noise, but the vibration of the engine creates a frequecy disturbance and keeping a clean power wave becomes impossible. Wierd right? So later when I saw the chatter in a pickup and it caused an engine vibration at specific speeds, I remembered some wierd fix and dug up my old notebooks. 20 minutes later with the use of a larger line from the filter to the ip, the problem was solved. Granted, the right fix is make the customer replace his injectors that he just replaced 20,000 miles earlier, and see if that helps. Then replace the entire return line too. So if you ever have that issue, go ahead and buy some parts, drop the tank and have a fun afternoon. I’ll just swap the $2 fuel line. Later when talking to the GM engineers when we were helping solve the waterpump redesign failure, I showed that to them. Go compare the 2000 procedures to the 95 or 96. That was from me telling gm what mq figured out.

And no I didn’t read the legal links- I really don’t care that much. And again I must request we get a good sarcasm font. Don’t sweat it bro, you’ll catch on.

Your effort to promote the carb laws inspires me to go burn a quart of oil in my wood fire pit by the pool and enjoy the way the smoke looks against the stars.

Dude, again you haven’t experienced it so it must not be. The feller from Alaska says clearly he has a lot of miles driving the platform, and hasn’t had the problem. You figure he is lying or just dumb like me?

Now unbeknownst to you he has many years on this and other forums of excellent diagnostic skills of these rigs as well as some very creative upgrade solutions to his credit. Your argument to him discredits you more. Maybe if you could see the face of the jurors, you could adjust your gameplan more.

you already threw out your a lawyer and went to school as an engineer- so your proclamation of expertise is up there a bit. All I need is for you to keep arguing and showing more errors to look better by default.

Ive been here enough that the guys and gals here seen me make errors before. But I am not perfect and freely admit when I am wrong. I shoot from the hip all the time, so an occasional wild shot happens and doesn’t hurt my feelings. You should try looking in the mirror and tell yourself “It’s ok to be wrong. You will still be likeable. Admitting errors doesn’t mean suicide is the only option.”

Has anyone ever notice there are 10 letters in both the words narcissism and California? Wierd right? Glad I’m not a perfect 10!

 

[royunion]

Guess not on agree to disagree scenario. Ok.

I did assume something not written. My impression was you work or worked professionally in a shop rebuilding injector pumps. Am I wrong? If so please correct me.

!

Will

I never said I did not finish Engineering Law school comes after as post graduate - in fact I ever said most of what reply to argue about

You make lot of mistakes and errors of which you base your flippant and snarky assumptions on.

I am not promoting carb laws - I am stating what is legal and what is not

This is a thread about A Savana Camper and you are way off base just wanting to fight and argue irrelevant theory.

If the OP ever finds himself needing a dealers help the FTB mod and a few others would find it possibly denied

I am retired and have done a lot of things in my life all of which I do not have to explain to you.

I can tell you from the little coherence I could garner from your wild meandering post that your attempt to argue Boyles law is done again backwards

The guy from Alaska described exactly how he destroyed his IP and said he had no clue

It looks like you describe how you make lots of mistakes and errors - and from posts off topic I and most of the reading public can see it I am sure

I feel sorry for you

 

[royunion]

So Roy, welcome to The Truck Stop first of all... You might want to read the 6.5 checklist and see what you think of that. Thanks, Mike

Do not know where or what the 6.5 checklist is.

I stick to my original position about the FTB mod - for the money it is not worth it, it is unlawful and could get a person denied repair work at a dealer - if they will even take in a 6.5, and for 1/16 of an inch increase in line the volume will not have as much effect on a DS4 as will higher persistent inlet pressure so the first stage fills fast and fully in the IP when running

Since no one here has shown their observations while the IP was running on a test stand with an OEM lift pump; it can and should be discounted and ignored

 

[Will L.]

@royunion
using the @ before the name indicates to all you mean that part for the individual and notifies the individual they have person response in public thread. It’s a cool new feature on this forum. Upper right of the screen for notices.

I already read and am responded to your pm. Please read it with an open mind. You might even see an atta boy or two in there. Feel free to keep private or publicly post my pm to you, if you desire wether to enflame or extinguish our disagreement. And as mentioned there:

A public apology to you from me for not being welcoming and not having a polite disagreement with you on a relatively small detail. We won’t change each others mind and continuing it is futile. I sincerely apologize.

Yes my conversations, examples, and explications are all over the place- always too long, but sometimes entertaining. But I help folks most of the time.

Lets end this wrecked game of tackle-checker-kickball on the playground and all sing Kumbaya by the campfire.

 

[btfarm]

@royunion
using the @ before the name indicates to all you mean that part for the individual and notifies the individual they have person response in public thread. It’s a cool new feature on this forum. Upper right of the screen for notices.

I already read and am responded to your pm. Please read it with an open mind. You might even see an atta boy or two in there. Feel free to keep private or publicly post my pm to you, if you desire wether to enflame or extinguish our disagreement. And as mentioned there:

A public apology to you from me for not being welcoming and not having a polite disagreement with you on a relatively small detail. We won’t change each others mind and continuing it is futile. I sincerely apologize.

Yes my conversations, examples, and explications are all over the place- always too long, but sometimes entertaining. But I help folks most of the time.

Lets end this wrecked game of tackle-checker-kickball on the playground and all sing Kumbaya by the campfire.

Getting close to the point of me ending it anyhow. Our members are asked to give respect to each other. Barring that... we'll step in with whatever we deem necessary.

Thanks Will, for your effort.

 

[WarWagon]

@royunion GM has done more to ruin the reputation of diesel power than all other OEM's combined. GM is the authority on CHEAP as their 5.7 Olds Diesel put lemon laws on the books and was so smoke belching dirty it's sale was later banned in CA. GM is a reference to unreliable, cheap, and underpowered. What GM did is a bad reference and no GM isn't a good authority to quote. Point of Fact: Detroit Diesel told GM that using cheaper cast cranks would result in broken crankshafts in the original 6.2. GM being cheap had to put a 100K warranty on 6.5's using GM Beancounter cheap proven to fail cast cranks to sell them. The Olds 5.7 diesel was attempted without a basic water in fuel light and a recall resulted to add one. Yeah, cite GM as the be all and know all for fuel systems... Of cheap reliability be dammed. We know better. It's not even funny.

We point out things to make the GM diesels better as in more reliable and wring some power out of them. Today going to the GM dealer is all but out of the question, cost prohibitive for a low value old vehicle, and most of us turn our own wrenches. We really don't care what a bankrupt GM thinks, did, or will do with a platform they no longer have in production or warranty. In context of GM solidly screwing up the reputation of diesel power, well, that story is already written. The follow up is blue book values of other same age diesels being way higher than GM diesel powered rigs in context of 6.5 and older GM engines.

I have run a smaller orifice on my IP. Yeah smaller than 1/4" fuel line. It won't deliver fuel and starts to boil diesel against the restriction. I can see it in a clear return line as bubbles, and at the extreme of solid vapor lock the line goes clear with air as the engine quits. I put a Walbro plunger pump on and then a "overkill" Mallory Alcohol rated 140 GPM. Still had vapor lock problems. I then removed the "restrictions" before the IP. This consisted of one kinked fuel line and another case a internal hose flapper.

1/4" fuel line is fit for Briggs and Stratton powered lawnmowers. With the extreme amount of fuel return the DS4 and DB2's dump back in the tank biased on RPM alone, before any even gets injected, it's a wonder the engines have fuel left in a 1/4" hose to run at all. GM's screw up on small fuel lines to the IP is but a footnote on Diesel Power's hurt reputation by GM. It's likely the 1/4" krap came from underpowered Olds 5.7 Diesel carryover that survived the 6.2 era and went uncorrected for the 6.5TD High Output engine.

One only needs to attempt breathing through the short 1/4" hose section and then after CPR is performed, try breathing through the FTB hose size.

Point of fact larger fuel lines was on the Heath Diesel rig when it set the 150+ MPH land speed record for a 6.5TD. It's also been discussed on here over a decade ago:
https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/feed-the-beast-part-i-part-ii-improve-fuel-to-ip.572/

 

[royunion]

@royunion GM has done more to ruin the reputation of diesel power than all other OEM's combined.

Absolutely no disagreement there

My position on the FTB mod is limited to the value of the mod given that one can get the proper performance out of the engine with a properly performing lift pump, and that I knew a GM dealer would not touch the thing even to do diagnostic scanning if the vehicle was modded like with the FTB mod. Also with the mod and a weaker OEM solenoid lift pump it could worsen things.

I appreciate the link - I wanted to see where it all started

While no one is checking diesel mods - in reality - the mod is unlawful on an emission control regulated vehicle - so if one can get the proper performance without it - it is not worth the time and money to do it.

GM was told by Stanadyne about the lift pump and GM went with the cheapest they thought would work anyway - and were really really wrong

Without increasing lift PUMP power - a larger line after the filter lowers pressure even more - but with the Rotary Vane pump it probably would work being able to actually pump fuel positively, however when the guy was sent us from the dealer on a flatbed because they would not touch the van due to mods - he then wanted them all removed.

I do not see a reason to even go there if you will be travelling - just dont try to fix it if it aint really broke

I am also assuming one is not going to be lead footing it from light to light just see how much drag race they can get out of Van Camper.

I am focused on what makes sense for what the OP project is . . . and reliability and OEM serviceability was at the top of my mindset should he breakdown on the road. The testimony from here https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/savanna-camper-project.47692/post-564268 is all one needs to know the lift pump alone will solve the FTB mode issue problem

If you have enough persistent pressure that can keep up and maintain - you have enough volume to accompany

The Leroy kit as far what they list is not a functionally identical setup missing the check valve however - but at least a business could get one that is with a label from a company that sells one with a EO exemption label and be legally compliant to the law

The only REALLY nice thing about the 6.5 IMO is if a giant solar flare hits Earth dead on at the US and wipes out all electronics - one can put on a mechanical IP and be back on the road again

 

[ak diesel driver]

number 1 reason people come to this forum is for information. If anyone can spout off misinformation and we aren't allowed to question or post a different view then what's the point. Compared to most other forums everyone has been fairly civil

 

[btfarm]

Thread closed.