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Savanna Camper Project

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JayTheCPA

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#41
Tuner is going to depend on which turbo goes into the truck.

ATT: Leroy.
OE GM-X series: Heath.

I seem to recall reading that Quadstar is working on Holset, but personally do not know much about which one of the flavors he has fine-tuned.


If the truck can manage to fit an ATT, might check with Leroy to see if he can get the shift tables that I developed and gave to Slim. While I never got to use them (moved to Burb over to a manual tranny before they were ported into the tune), I did get feedback that they were used in another rig with good results. The approach was to make the logic work much more like a stick, avoid lugging under load, and keep the TCC locked a lot more to minimize heat generation under load. I came up with the shift pattern from a combination of experience with towing up 6% grades along with studying the power curves. End goal was to have one shift pattern work great whether empty or loaded.

The only scenario I could not figure out was how to make the tranny control speed coming down grade (with the cruise control set) and just figured to do it the old fashioned way of the gear lever.
 

Jaryd

Love my 6.5
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Hodges, SC
#42
I don’t know of anybody offering a after market exhaust for your setup so probably have to get a shop to build you one.

I would think about trying to fit a ATT turbo in there even if you have to remote mount it. I’ve seen pictures of a van with a ATT remote mounted to under the cab under the seat. Since your rig is going to be heavy even when empty I bet it would work out good for your situation.
 
Messages
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Location
Northern KY
Thread starter #43
Guys I have a couple other questions.

1: Do all 2001 6.5 have dual stats?

113k on fleet maintained engine.
Runs great but since it’s out I thought I would replace water pump.

2: Who makes the best one?

3: Timing chain replacement? Yes/No?
Geared or chain? Who makes the best one?

4: Oil cooler lines. 90% metal 10% rubber. Seem to be in very good shape. Should I upgrade?

5: Water pump by pass restricter. Leroy Diesel. Yes/No ?? Thoughts?
 

Jaryd

Love my 6.5
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#44
1. Yes

2. AC Delco ( make sure to get the 2000 or newer)

3. Gears

4. Yes

5. Yes ( it makes more coolant go through the radiator so helps the engine not heat soak as fast)
 

Will L.

Well-Known Member
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#45
Short response: Jaryd is correct.

In addition, fleet maintenance is nice to say it most likey got oul changes. But almost never means it got the best maintenance. Most fleets will never upgrade turbo, exhaust, pmd relocation, etc.

My suggestion is buy Leroy’s timing gears and send them to Chris for coating. But Leroy’s BRF, and thr AC Delco water pump to put it in. Buy 2 new thermostats from Leroy at the same time.

Then decide how long you ate going to own the truck. If 100,000 miles, buy a new AC Delco balancer and belt drive pulley while they are off. They need replacing at 100,000 miles MAXIMUM. If use or environment is rougher then sooner. If you are keeping the engine over 100,000 miles, then buy the fluidampr balancer and Leroy’s solid belt drive pulley.

Also do a new Belt when it all goes back together. Examine belt tensioner and idler pulleys carefully and consider new as they go back in.

Can you tell I hate repairing something that I had torn apart not long ago? Haha.

Oil lines failing is engine killer. You can not have too good of oil cooler lines. Gold plated with platinum poka dots if they last longer haha
 
Messages
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Location
Northern KY
Thread starter #46
Short response: Jaryd is correct.

In addition, fleet maintenance is nice to say it most likey got oul changes. But almost never means it got the best maintenance. Most fleets will never upgrade turbo, exhaust, pmd relocation, etc.

My suggestion is buy Leroy’s timing gears and send them to Chris for coating. But Leroy’s BRF, and thr AC Delco water pump to put it in. Buy 2 new thermostats from Leroy at the same time.

Then decide how long you ate going to own the truck. If 100,000 miles, buy a new AC Delco balancer and belt drive pulley while they are off. They need replacing at 100,000 miles MAXIMUM. If use or environment is rougher then sooner. If you are keeping the engine over 100,000 miles, then buy the fluidampr balancer and Leroy’s solid belt drive pulley.

Also do a new Belt when it all goes back together. Examine belt tensioner and idler pulleys carefully and consider new as they go back in.

Can you tell I hate repairing something that I had torn apart not long ago? Haha.

Oil lines failing is engine killer. You can not have too good of oil cooler lines. Gold plated with platinum poka dots if they last longer haha
Thanks for the advise. I’ll purchase al the Leroy’s stuff you suggested as well as injectors and glows. Might as well do motor mounts from him as well.
Since it’s a toy hauler/camper it will be a long while putting 100k miles on it so new stock balancer.
Is a new pulley necessary? Are they dampened as well?
Turbo is center mounted. Will it take the wicked wheel?
 

Will L.

Well-Known Member
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#47
The rubber pulley should be replaced when the balancer is.
So you might be better to do the ac delco ones since not going to get to the mileage. Go agead and spend that money on the wicked wheel instead.

Doing a custom mounted turbo to replace the gm6/7 that is in there could be money well spent- but your cash flow and use needs to determine that. The low cost of wicked wheel makes it a yes if you dont fit a big boy turbo in there. Your set up should be the same as vans and hummers- with pictures we could verify. Better turbo is better, but $$

There is a pre built one done for it sold for Hummers called the super77. There is multiple companies (6 iirc) selling it, and 2 of them are saying it is not just a stock turbo with wicked wheel- HOWEVER- I have now seen 3 different super 77 turbos that we opened up, and 2 were from the 2 companies saying it isn’t just a wicked wheel. BULLCRAP. They didn’t even do any cleanup work inside the turbo, no coatings, nada- just a wicked wheel. So if you can diy that, it will save some cash. Otherwise you can buy an off the shelf one and have a rebuilt turbo with wicked wheel done. The factroy up pipes are cheaply made, frequently leak, and flow like garbage because of the way they kink the pipe for the bends. There are aftermarket up pipes that are fairly cheap and flow better. This helps both spooling and lower egt on the hiway- so I say do them at the same time.

4” exhaust down and out is a wonder thing also for this engine, so consider that when the $ and tinkeritis kicks in. It helps regardless of turbo choice. I have seen it help naturally aspirated ones. Just dont have a restricive muffler inplace of the larger 4” and choke muffler can make no benefit or slightly worse.
 
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Location
Orange, California 92867
#48
Welcome!
You have gotten rock solid input so far. . . .

I strongly suggest a fuel pressure gauge a 9-14 psi desired pressure- The ip sucking fuel all the way from the tank wears out the ip much faster and those suckers are expensive as heck, plus hard to change in a van.

I live in the southwest, Vegas basically. . . . . But in trucks, normal vans, and hummers in the southwest using 180 stats keeps the engine at 180/185 depending on various things. That extra 10-15 degrees is room for error when things heat up. The loss of a little mpg in pickups here is well worth the safety factor imo.
I have the van engine.

By Carter Lift Pump Kit - if you mean a CARP4601HP - then yes that is GREAT - but it may cause surges and runaway, so it "may" need a regulator to hold it to or just under 15 psi - since it can push 18 psi. Try it first - it may tolerate it just fine. You can get adapters to allow the pump to do a direct replacement. Not harness is needed if you use plugs to curt off and plug into the existing connector. I would NOT do the Carter 4600HP - it is rated only at 6 to 8 psi. Though it will run better than any OEM style lift pump. Carter used to make a 7 to 9 psi pump of the same kind and I cannot find it right now. But the Airtex E8257 is the same 7 to 9 psi spec, however that vehicle calls for a 12 to 15 psi pump for instance the AIRTEX E3540. You just need to put a back flow valve on the Rotary vane pump

The DS4 really cannot suck fuel - while the DB2 can slightly. A DS4 will usually just cut off - but worse you are killing the PMD and the Fuel Solenoid if you run on low fuel pressure so take Will L's advice and get a fuel pressure gauge. the Fuel Solenoid in the middle of the IP at the rear can only be replaced during a rebuild and is set using a crush washer on the bench during the rebuild.

I keep a spare fuel pump with me in the vehicle - because you never know when it will crap can on you. A fifteen minute swap will save a big tow usually to somewhere no one can help you because the part - the pump is not available locally. I had a new Carter wet immersion pump quit in one month - lifetime warranty or not - I needed to replace it immediately to keep going.

The DS4 may start and run and go on a weak pump - but it will not go on a shot pump

On your project - if you swap the wire harness and the dash speedo module that should be all you need to do - BUT you do need the vacuum pump - and you should make sure it is strong and the system has no leaks. The vacuum boost solenoid is what controls the vacuum to the waste gate - and it is critical also. If you are into replacing things now - do the vacuum pump - with a NEW one -as the rebuilt ones tend to have cams which are already worn down from rotating on the pods and they are not replaced in the rebuilt ones.

You are asking for trouble if you go doing mods like a Boost Master waste gate control and I would try to stay away from tunes - especially on a 2001 ecm where you have really good code on the binary already. Most GM dealers do not want to deal with the 6.5 but if you have a custom tune - they won't tough it if you have an emergency needing help. They MAY re-burn it back to stock - as legally that is all they can do. I have seen especially where the ecm will not take a TDC Offset procedure with a custom tune burn on the ecm.

The ecm is going to interpret things as should be "STOCK" and will likely act up if you mess with the wrong thing. Heat - especially like Will L. pointed out above - 180 is a big difference to 195 and these engine get hot FAST - then the ecm starts de-tuning trying to do what it thinks is saving you from destroying your engine. when I put a new radiator - stock one - in the van it stays below or at 180 pretty much and remember that is also oil temperature and trans temperature you are affecting cooler. It runs much better and more consistently at the cooler temperatures.

With your PMD relocation - you do not say where you are putting it - but mine is on the front cross member next to the top of the radiator - between it and the hydroboost - on a small T type hinge so I can flip it up to change a PMD fast and the fins up in the air flow that comes right under the hood the same as the air inlet to the engine. If you put it just a little on the cross member it stops and sits nicely right there in fresh cool air

Related to the heat of the PMD is the fuel pump pressure to the IP inlet and I know it does not make sense initially - but the DS4 idles by the pressure it has to multiply on a correctly set up throttle plate. In essence the speed of th engine increases the pressure and that gives more injection pressure so that the throttle plate only needs a small assist from the PMD as a PWN signal to the Fuel Solenoid - but when there is no - or inadequate fuel pressure it tries to hold the throttle open and from a solenoid that over loads the power transistors in the PMD they get hot and fail.

If you have the dual alternators - and you are going to use this as an RV - I would upgrade the alternators - to 200 amp or 240 amp units unless they already are. I have dual 200 alternators and they are externally regulated by 540xhd regulators - which are 14.3 voltage set point and more rugged than internal regulators which will get hot and fail. Even mine get warm under load on the alternators. but they handle it and I have non-avalanche diodes in my alternators meaning they will stay under continuous load if the batteries need it. It is how alternators are set up to do welding.

If you have a 110 vac roof mounted a/c unit I assume you are going to be running an inverter to power it and you will need that extra output even on dual alternators to keep the batteries charged as you drive.
 
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Location
Orange, California 92867
#52
Then it reduces to 5/16. This is an error in design or possible cost savings in manufacturing. Having it go to the ip in 3/8 is best- this modification is known as ‘feed the beast’. Depending what liftpump and filter you are running determines which fittings you need. Picture of filter housing helps determination. .
Sorry to buck the "Feed The Beast" trend - but the line reduces from GM to increase PRESSURE at the IP. It is known as Boyles law in the engineering field. It was not an error - the error was in putting on those feckless lift pumps thinking they could reliably put out pressure and volume for any length of time.

More "pumping power" results in higher pressure when the line is reduced in size. You see Boyle's law in play every time you turn on a garden hose spray nozzle. IMO - the "Feed The Beast" mod is not needed if the fuel pump is putting out enough actual pressure and volume as in GPH in the first place.

For instance an Airtex E3540 is supposed to be able to do these specs
Maximum Free Flow Rate (gph) 35
Maximum Pressure Rate (psi) 12 Minimum
Free Flow Rate (gph) 25
Minimum Pressure Rate (psi)8

I would NOT trust it to do that for long however if it ever really did that. in short do not believe it - its bunk.

The DS4 can take up to 15 psi by its specs - and return excess pressure and volume of fuel to the tank - which was supposed to to be the OEM function to cool the PMD on the side and lube and cool the IP itself

Here is the Carter P4601HP specs (a rotary vane wet immersion pump)
Free Flow Rate:100 gph/380 lph
Maximum Pressure (psi):9.5 to 16 psi

There is your "Feed The Beast" mod - it can push more fuel volume at a higher pressure - POSITIVELY because it is a true PUMP running an impeller rotary vane - not a solenoid spring driven "pusher"/

A larger line is not needed - it will move more volume through the small line as far as the engine can consume but of course you can put on a larger line as it will make little difference because the actual inlet at the IP is a restriction AGAIN anyway

See my post at https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/93-td-hard-cold-start-with-lots-of-smoke.47715/post-564334 for how to do it yourself to put on Rotary Vane Pump and save the OEM connections if you ever need to go back

I cannot remember if I up'ed the lift pump fuse one level or not.

Attached are pics of how I mount my PMD relocation - simply flip up the hinge to swap it. It is a simply PMD kit from Dorman. The other nice thing is you can put your hand on it to see how warm it is - if it is too hot to hold onto something is wrong. the other thing I do not kn ow if anyone told you - keep a spare always. These go and you are dead in the water - PERIOD. The nice thing is if you are travelling and you need one - Walmart will get one to you where ever you are are their local store usually in one day or two.

The last thing - you might consider is .001 undersize rod bearings if you are going to open the bottom end. Use plasti-gauge to make sure they are not too tight. It will do wonders for your oil pressure and oil cooling spray force (97 and up engines
had the oil cooling under piston oil spray feature)

pmd_down.jpg

pmd_up.jpg
 

Will L.

Well-Known Member
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#53
Sounds to me like you have never replaced the 5/16 fuel
Line with 3/8 or bigger in any of your modified trucks or 6.5 cars you may have built.

I get the concept of the reduced line size, but if your line is larger and can keep the pressure up wih the large line size, you get more volume. Yes it increases the return line pressure, but that system is good to 10 psi as is, so plenty of room for it without problems.

Some of the heavily modified pumps like the built db2 db4 and db0 pumps I had used 1/2” feed at over 30 psi and 3/8” return. The best one I had used 3/8” in and 1/4” out at 28 psi and had to have a resivour tank that held a quart right where pickups usually have the filter.

The heat sink on hinge idea I have never seen before- cool (pun intended)
Rather than carry a spare pmd in the glove box and taking time on the side of the road to swap it, in the fleet we bought larger heat sinks and mounted 2 next to each other. Then use an extra plug with silicone on it to keep out dirt. (Nowdays better to just buy 2 small sinks) then when any issues, just swap the plug over and go. Then later remove the bad one and send back to Leroy for the lifetime warranty.
 
Messages
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Location
Orange, California 92867
#54
Sounds to me like you have never replaced the 5/16 fuel
Line with 3/8 or bigger in any of your modified trucks or 6.5 cars you may have built.

The heat sink on hinge idea I have never seen before- cool (pun intended)
Rather than carry a spare pmd in the glove box and taking time on the side of the road to swap it, in the fleet we bought larger heat sinks and mounted 2 next to each other. Then use an extra plug with silicone on it to keep out dirt. (Nowdays better to just buy 2 small sinks) then when any issues, just swap the plug over and go. Then later remove the bad one and send back to Leroy for the lifetime warranty.
Will, . . . correct . . . and I never will . . . as for the amount of fuel the 6.5 engine can consume and high enough persistent inlet line pressure it does not do anything to matter. One can put on a 3/8 line fitting to the inlet - but the IP needs constant and persistent PRESSURE to perform consistently and well - for the first stage to perform best. Over 8 to 9 psi and the check- return valve is finding its way to opening anyway but the higher PRESSURE is great because that is how the IP is immersion lubricated and cooled by fresh fuel and its re circulation to the tank. Both the DB2 and DS4. The system is also designed that way to increase pressure near the IP and force air in the fuel to head for the path or best escape and that it the top of the IP when it enters the IP and out back to the tank in the return line system. Higher pressure just means more fuel is returning FASTER to the tank and cooling and lubricating the IP better.

I am not saying the larger line hurts . . . I am saying it does not do anything to help . . . for the time and money spent. I am not talking about the DB0 or DB4 pumps at all or those pressures on them you mention

The Stanadyne DB2 and DS4 test spec sheet commands that the pump be tested at 5 psi + or - (plus or minus) .005 percent tolerance, at idle or Wide Open Throttle - volume is just irrelevant because by Boyle's law you MUST have sufficient volume to maintain that pressure anyway. Of course the test stand for the IP does not use the crappy little OEM solenoid pump to try to test the IP and it was tried one time - and the thing could NOT perform as needed to complete the test. That told the story right there - a brand new OEM solenoid Style Lift Pump could not do it. More volume through the IP on eh test stand through the injectors meant the OEM pump lost pressure - PERIOD. That is where this FTB mod thinking comes in.

The top end spec of 14 psi is when Boyle's law over loads the IP and the return valve cannot get rid of excess fuel fast enough.

Ford and Dodge learned fast not to use the solenoid lift pump on their diesel engines.

Here is the UGLY truth - GM discovered that the higher the IP inlet pressure - the higher the emissions were because you cannot control a mechanical injector in any way but to have lower volume behind it when the pop pressure goes off.

No mechanical injection diesel can - and that is why Diesel today are all solenoid operated fuel injectors now. So their effort was to keep the inlet pressure low so emissions could be met - the result is a dead PMD and over worked Fuel Solenoid to operate hot - and burn up and that caused the PMD to die. Ooooppps when GM realized that - the OEM lift pump pressure specs went from 7-9 psi for 95 to 98 - back to 10-12 psi in 1999 and up. Did not matter as the OEM solenoid lift pump still could not do it at the high end anyway. Hence the FTB mod was born.

However the excess PRESSURE is always great - regardless of the emissions issue - for forcing the fuel oil into the working parts of the IP for immersion lubrication of the internal parts which helps keep it cool.

Hence a larger fuel line is a belief of man - not the science of the issue. In this case an adequate Lift Pump that is capable of POSITIVELY pushing enough gallons per hour at a given pressure will always deliver enough fuel - more than the engine can consume and that is all that matters. An OEM solenoid style lift pump might justify a FTB mod because it is not working anyway - and never can - but any rotary vane lift pump that can push like ACTUALLY 75 to 100 GPH will never need the FTB mod.

If I opened a DB2 and saw this below - I would know it is just not getting enough PRESSURE - otherwise the IP would be FULL to the brim and in fact upon unscrewing the lid, fuel oil should have squirted out or the system is leaking down - which would happen from extended sitting - but not let it drain back to below the brim of the cover.

Anyone who does Gasoline fuel injection knows this well and it is the same for the IP's

The same with the DS4 housing below this one below

So many people have tried to come up with band-aids to the poor performance of the OEM lift pump - this is the result - irrelevant science.

So many DS4 and DB2 pumps have been running starved for PRESSURE - sometimes the return check valve actually sticks shut and will not open when the proper pressure is put on it and should be tested to make sure they are opening like the last pic shows

I simply repair the PMD by replacing the power transistors - I have a bunch of them - and have not done one in long time since there are no failures now for three years. A Lifetime Warranty that make you work is just a PITA.

I actually used a dual PMD system on a remote mounted external tank that the return line ran through - and when taking the temperature of the PMD even on a hot day - it was cooler than the return line fuel temperature - so I went back the flip up PMD setup you see.

Another thing the PMD does is the power pin gets hot and warms the connector and then sometimes needs tightening by bending it slightly to be tighter to the pin - using like a small jewelers screwdriver to been the connector side to be a little tighter on the pins in the PMD

Another thing it does is the calibration resistor gets hot and the traces burn open or the resistors itself ops open. A new external resistor solves that forever.

The FTB mod is just overkill by a belief of man - not the science - IF you have a good positive displacement lift pump - and free flowing fuel filter - that can keep pressure and volume up on the IP inlet at idle or WOT


db2_roosa_open.jpg


housing.jpg reg_test.jpg
 

Will L.

Well-Known Member
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#55
@SplitSsss if this discussion about ftb and pmd is going to far off point, I whole heartedly apologize and would request a mod do some chopping and moving of posts to keep your thread on track- if you feel it has been muddied too much.
I feel you should have both points of view and make your own decisions, hence continued counterpoint.

@royunion just want to make sure not microagressing you, and all points I make are informative intended, no negative feelings here, for the most part. But I am gonna pick on ya a little. Diesel love! I Still wanna be friends and play in the sandbox together.

So...FTB mod. You seem to be under the impression that when the guy on this forum created the name and modified his factory ffm, he was the first and only to decide a 5/16 fuel line was too small and he and everyone else all only ever used the factory p.o.s. pump. Also that no one else took jr high science class learning boyles law. No, exponentially.

I was already doing these and much more before hearing the term feed the beast. I had already run the 6.5 on nitropropane, twin turbos, twin injection pumps, and yes even blew up several trying to use nitromethane.

You never tried and never will. Ok, I say that in discussions with friends. One guy is bisexual. He swears the pleasure of his male partner is better than from his female partner. I never have, and never will know for sure. I have to concede that his experience is more advanced than my theory. So I won’t force you to try it yourself and see. However I will point out you could try without as many negative ramifications.

You say it is not worth the time and $. I never bought a FTB kit from anyone. I did my own, and the parts were under the $20 range. For convience, the added cost of a kit might be worth it. You repair your own burned up pmd- kudos. I would never spend my time doing that. Hell- you designed, built installed then later removed a fuel tank just to cool the pmd- dual infact! Wow, that sounds liks a lot of time spent. Maybe a couple bucks too. When I worked for the fuel company and had the best tig for my use welding up fuel tanker trucks, so of corse the materials as well in the scrap bin- I never would have spent that time. We just tried pmd in the cab, near the drivers, so they could move the plug over without getting out of the seat- multi million dollar lawsuits will do that to a company- make it literally as safty first as possible and still get paid their millions as testers for GM.

You mentioned the 75-100 gpm pump- please share. Many of us cant get pressure regulation accurate enough at these low numbers.

What is max on db2- 2 min, with 5 desired, and 7-8 max depending which papers and class I have been in. But at 6 we know timing advance issues begin. And that is why they set the pressure at 5. Now, i also did 1 class at stanandyne on the ds4. One of the three engineers that designed the pump taught the class. He said they stuck with 5 because their was no reason to redesign the supply feed of the test unit. But pointed out our company’s pump builder in the class and said doing custom builds, get base line testing done at 5, then tune it at your desired pressure. For example we used one of my db2 which was for the nitropropane engine that was running north of 30 psi. We showed results at 5 psi, then 10,15,20,25,30. Astonishing differences, as some of the serious hotrodding db2 guys here could attest. And for rookies- NO dont just run high pressure and think that helps- the pump is special built for it.
You mentioned the pressure changes through the years but missed the governor rpm limit changes- kinda related... also applications very it too.

So, keeping pressure from 5-14 psi in a ds4. And keeping in mind more problems occur at 15 psi than 4. Teach how. Have video showing psi at the pump from idle to 65 mph while towing max weight up hill. Then show the LP, water separator, and filter(s). No doubt GM screwed the pooch on things. Fuel system especially. But if you have a great solution, please share- you can rename it FTBB feed the beast better or ftb2.0.

You mentioned inlet fuel pressure being low causing wear of ip. I say something similar frequently, but not exactly the same. The lift pump fuel pressure does not stopor slow friction. Presence of lubricant does. When there is not enough fuel in the ip, the primary causes a vacuum inside the housing to occur. This vacuum draws the fuel out of areas normally soaked in fuel that has wear points. I always say less than 1 psi measured at the inlet, because when it falls below that the fuel gets drawn out of those points. This was demonstrated with the clear housing ip they used to teach in class just for demonstration of this point. The GM training video of the class in progress- thats me saying “holy macaroni!” when he shows it, and yes I have since cut my hair. haha.
Anyways- like 10psi oil pressure between the crank and rod bearings cant possibly over power the hundreds of psi from the power stoke after detonation, 14 psi of fuel is not going to withstand the pressures of the metals in contact in the pump. The presence of lubricant helps the wear. Do db pumps running at max 5psi wear faster than ds4 with double the psi? No. Infact they last longer.

You mentioned ford- yet failed to mention they use the db2 with 3/8” line. When having performance db2,4,0 built- they just use the ford part rather than drill and tap the gm housing. Do ford engineers not understand boyles law when they made it that way? Oh wait- the stanandyne engineers did both- silly me. So why did ford do 3/8 all the time and gm did not? You do know some gm db2 cane with 3/8 line inlet, right? They must have been protesting the microagressions caused by boyle that day and called for a suspension in his law. Or, maybe, THERE WERE OTHER REASONS GM USED A 5/16 LINE.

Far be it from me- the guy who GM sent engineers to work with, the guy GM gave hundreds of engines to test with, many of them destructive tests.
I have mentioned before that GM did a ton of stuff for profit alone knowing they make some things worse than they could. A cousin that is still a gm engineer has met a couple of people on this forum and explained his job is affordably redesigning great parts down to good parts at the expense of GM to the economic benifit of the dealerships. Although we are the end customers, the dealerships are the real customers and their $ needs addressing too. Ya think they dont know and didnt know then: bad lp makes truck no go vroom vromm and make ip go blamo sooner? C’mon man!!! Engineered designed failure points.
GM taught the first year, before the rigs were out mind you, that since no longer using the manual lift pump, to always first test: fuel quality, volume, and pressure from the newly incorporated electrical lift pump. WHAAAAT? It’s like they new in advance or something. Whoa! Ok did I stress that too much?

Emmisions: ok. Ds4 required only because epa mandate said desired and delivered fuel must be available at electronic reading port. Ever see the db5? Yeah 5. It it the one that looks like all other db pumps except has 2 big sensors on the rectangular box above the entire pump. It has fittings that tied to the in-n-out (dang now I want a double double) fuel lines. And the sensor on the side tied to the tps. Those sensors-well you get it. Ford was out of the picture. GM bumped his head and said it was too big. Yes, another case of GM telling the company they pay to change best design into something they want to fit or look different. So they came up with, a ds4. SMH.
You said the fuel inlet pressure of the ip wrecks the emmisions and went into electric injectors and such. We dont have Bulls here so :really really really big dog crap!!!

That fuel company I worked at doing the testing of biofuel for unky sam- where we learned peanut make crap biofuel and ruined the Las Vegas transit system for almost a year... YEAH, we had smog machines for gas and diesel like any bobs smog hut can have- but ours was live dyno and also we had 2 engineers from the epa running them. You guys know how I always comment db2 is better emmisions capable than ds4? Yes- I got in a HUGE fight with the epa morons and prived to them on their own equipment with their engineers running it that the db2 was cleaner, and had better mpg to boot proving not just ppm gains but overall use benifits and that their law was making things worse on accident. They argued the better long term effects and big gubmint vs me- guess who won? Haha.

Dude. Go adjust you psi to your minimum spec and smog it on the rollers. Then adjust it up to max and donit again. Show the difference. Make a youtube video. I know the results, we did it. We tried to vary the outcome through experimentation. You are wrong. You cant compare direct injection with idi. Inlet fuel pressure being in the peak VOLUME and PRESSURE makes the best power & cleanest emmisions at the same time, period. It is an efficiency issue.

My bisexual friend, soon to burn in Hell unfortunately, keeps telling me to try it that it is worth it (and not with him btw- he only likes black men that way). I will continue to reject the offer. But having run db0,2,4 and ds4 engines with different lp supplying and in some cases no lp supplying... I am telling you: try it, it is worth it. The 3/8 line btw, not the backdoor test. Gotta clear that up. Cuz like he says who are you gonna believe someone who doesn’t REALLY know and only can guess by what they imagine, or buy someone who has done it and REALLY knows.
 
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#56
@SplitSsss if this discussion about ftb and pmd is going to far off point, I whole heartedly apologize and would request a mod do some chopping and moving of posts to keep your thread on track- if you feel it has been muddied too much.
I feel you should have both points of view and make your own decisions, hence continued counterpoint.

@royunion just want to make sure not microagressing you, and all points I make are informative intended, no negative feelings here, for the most part. But I am gonna pick on ya a little. Diesel love! I Still wanna be friends and play in the sandbox together.

So...FTB mod. You seem to be under the impression that when the guy on this forum created the name and modified his factory ffm,

You say it is not worth the time and $.

You mentioned the 75-100 gpm pump- please share. Many of us cant get pressure regulation accurate enough at these low numbers.

What is max on db2- 2 min, with 5 desired, and 7-8 max depending which papers and class I have been in. . . .
You mentioned the pressure changes through the years but missed the governor rpm limit changes- kinda related... also applications very it too.

So, keeping pressure from 5-14 psi in a ds4. And keeping in mind more problems occur at 15 psi than 4. Teach how. . . .

You mentioned inlet fuel pressure being low causing wear of ip. . . .

You mentioned ford- yet failed to mention they use the db2 with 3/8” line. . . .

Far be it from me- the guy who GM sent engineers to work with, the guy GM gave hundreds of engines to test with, many of them destructive tests. . . .

GM taught the first year, before the rigs were out mind you, that since no longer using the manual lift pump, to always first test: fuel quality, volume, and pressure from the newly incorporated electrical lift pump.

Emmisions: ok.
You said the fuel inlet pressure of the ip wrecks the emmisions and went into electric injectors and such.

that the db2 was cleaner,

Dude. Go adjust you psi to your minimum spec and smog it on the rollers.

My bisexual friend, soon to burn in Hell unfortunately, .
Will . . . yes way off point with bisexual friends in a diesel IP discussion and some of the other stuff you wrote - but your final quote is hilarious - if indeed there is a "Hell"

This thread is about a guy new to the 6.5 with a 2001 6.5 van version trying to put together a reliable - van camper and why. That is what I am talking about only - the why - and what to NOT do - and why - not about other injection pumps and after market mods technically unlawful and furthermore not needed on his unit.

Will L. you mis-read - I am saying that the extra 1/16 of an inch with a FTB mod does not make enough of difference if PRESSURE and VOLUME capability of a TRUE ROTARY VANE PUMP is sufficient to overcome the slight restriction. Sure Ford knew better and has a 3/8 line - but that is my point - but they use a positive displacement lift pump method. In medicine a doctor increases blood pressure by using medicines which produce Vasoconstriction which is the narrowing of the blood vessels resulting from contraction of the muscular wall of the vessels to increase blood pressure - so Boyle's law works everywhere. By increasing the line AFTER the restriction of the fuel filter - one is doing the opposite actually contributing to lowering pressure. I do not know who came up with the FTB mod or name . . . and do not care . . . it is not OEM stock so as far as I am concerned - I would never do it - as technically it is also illegal. A mechanic in California or a dealer could and would get a hefty fine doing such a mod.

Will L wrote . . . "You mentioned the 75-100 gpm pump- please share. Many of us cant get pressure regulation accurate enough at these low numbers. " I think Will means GPH - which is what I wrote . . . and anyway see https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/93-td-hard-cold-start-with-lots-of-smoke.47715/post-564334

I am not able to tell what "Many of us cant get pressure regulation accurate enough at these low numbers" means . . . but I can tell you that if you are using a OEM solenoid lift type pump . . . you never will.

The pump setup I am talking about is one that MEETS the OEM spec - where the OEM solenoid pump ACTUALLY does not and will not reliably for long. My post above describes how to make a functionally identical pump system that meets the OEM spec. It meets CARB standards under California law as "functionally identical" at 13 CCR § 1900(20) and (b)(2) - and I am not talking about or addressing nitro methane and all the other things Will L. you tangentially went off into in the reply post you made

I am not talking about smog reports either - I am talking about how the IP responds on the test stand according to Stanadyne's commanded test specifications. The is an OEM standards issue - not about smog results

What I said is the DB2 can take up to 14 psi at the inlet and what happens is the unseeded excess fuel goes out the return valve - and GM OEM pump specs for manual IP DB2 6.5's is still for the lift pump like an Airtex e3158 which is a 10-14 lift pump.

The DS4 and DB2 are both set and tested at 5 psi - but that has nothing to with the lift pump's ability to push and maintain that pressure - as the IP is INTERNALLY REGULATED extra housing pressure has little to do with the IP workings unless it is too low.

We are talking about the DS4 here for the Camper the OP has which needs a reliable lift pump and he is asking for experience and advice on that and that only.

The FTB mod has nothing to do with him getting the 6.5 running right - because it does not matter enough and could produce negative effects actually.

The DS4 is simply a "drive by wire" electronically timed and throttled mechanical Injection Pump and Injector system - so akin to the DB2 in "end result operation" that the DS4 and DB2 IP can be swapped and it will work.

First - if either the DB2 or DS4 return valve and system cannot let fuel free flow back to the tank at 15 psi inlet pressure - the IP may indeed behave strange. 15 psi which is the high end of the rotary vane pump is too high - but the fuel filter restriction often drops to an acceptable level loose a few psi there.

Will L, wrote "teach how" . . .

Page 1.8 of the Stanadyne DS4 Operations and Repair manual states:

manual_quote.jpg

Hence above 15 psi there will be problems and at or near 15 there MAY be problems. But going through a filter the amount of pressure one looses - often compensates. As my post above shows - use of 7 to 9 psi pump solves it - BUT I am talking about a Positive Displacement Pump Rotary Vane Pump that can deliver a true PRESSURE and VOLUME unlike the OEM solenoid lift pump.

Will L wrote "You mentioned inlet fuel pressure being low causing wear of ip.", but in fact Will L says exactly the same thing I am saying about immersion lubrication helped by higher housing pressure.

Will L wrote "GM taught the first year, before the rigs were out mind you, that since no longer using the manual lift pump, to always first test: fuel quality, volume, and pressure from the newly incorporated electrical lift pump. " . . . yes and that is EXACTLY what I am saying - the OEM Solenoid Lift pump cannot "Feed the Beast" - reliably and even if you test it - when it warns up and wears the spring pressure weakens and so does the OEM lift pump - and you never know unless you have a gauge - and on this Will L seems to agree.

Whether GM sent engines for you to blow up or test is not the issue here - the issue at https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/savanna-camper-project.47692/post-564345 was the FTB mod was not needed if a REAL Lift Pump replaced the OEM Solenoid Pump which is unreliable with a higher volume higher pressure positive displacement true rotary vane pump.

Will L wrote "
Emmisions: ok.
You said the fuel inlet pressure of the ip wrecks the emmisions and went into electric injectors and such. "

Anyone who has ever driven a 6.5 with a weak or failing lift pump - knows one of the symptoms is it has really poor acceleration. Conversely a strong lift pump like a rotary vane type - will let the IP dump as much fuel as it can - as it is well supplied with enough fuel to do so - and one can see more under load black smoke which is more emissions.

Conversely if GM put on the weaker lift pumps - the emissions would stay lower - as it appears to be a form of "de-tuning" - but instead it blew PMD's and Fuel Solenoids.

Will L wrote "that the db2 was cleaner, " etc

Again we are not talking about the DB2 - as this is a thread about a 2001 with a DS4 - and nor are were talking about the DB0 or DB4

I would never adjust any IP out of what Stanadyne states to make any point which is irrelevant anyway
 
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#58
One of the more interesting discussions on here in awhile.

Folks, it (fuel system) deserves to be split off into it's own thread esp. out of respect to the OP's project.
The OP has already done so at => https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/savana-camper-project-ii.47754/

However the OP specifically asked about replacing the fuel lines in his first post

"" 1: The plastic fuel lines are too short and are labled do not repair. Should I just go with metal and rubber fuel lines? Thats what I was planning. if so any recomendations would be helpful.
2: Eliminate the vacuum pump or not? If I eliminate it what is the best way to control the waste gate? Anyone got pics? ""

Then I stated he should replace the OEM lift pump with a Rotary Vane pump and explained why - as he said he was going to put on a new lift pump - so the thread was about the fuel system .. . right on through

MrMarty51 seconded that at https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/savanna-camper-project.47692/post-564268

Then Will L brought up the Feed The Beast mod which I quoted at post 52 => https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/savanna-camper-project.47692/post-564345

and sometime later Will L went into an extensive meandering post at 55 => https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/savanna-camper-project.47692/post-564393

trying to roust multiple support for the FTB mod.

The OP should know we had a guy put a FTB mod on his van - and with an OEM Solenoid Lift pump and then he really could not hold pressure. The fuel filter on a van is under the drivers seat area, and the extra distance to the IP from there lets increased volume area of the tubing DROP pressure versus the filter at the rear of the engine up top. He also lost the fuel pressure check block and Schrader valve in doing so. We had to put it all back to stock and - he then bought a rotary vane pump.

Will L is a long time member by his posts, and I do not know if he is a Stanadyne Authorized Repair tech or Rebuilder, but I know Stanadyne does not let the shop I worked for advise or do mods like that which are also unlawful technically. The local GM dealer would not touch it with that mod and sent them to our shop.

Trying to be neutral, I showed that Boyle's law is the culprit with that feckless OEM solenoid lift pump which is only a spring pusher - and internally it is only a 5/16 piston too,

Will L clung to the FTB mod as valid.

Where ever the FTB mod came from it is bad science - and the OP would have or may have ended up like our customer if he did or does it.

A rotary vane system like the OP is considering negates any need for the FTB mod as the post at MrMarty51 shows if he can hold 11 psi all the time surely there is enough volume of fuel being delivered - unless he has an FTB mod though his profile does not say he does.

Out of respect to the OP - he should know the true science of the issue of what is a bad idea to do and why.

I think this side of the OP's thread as a project dead - he is continuing at the new post
 

Will L.

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#59
Yeah, the opposite opinion Roy and I have on the larger fuel line was both of us voicing out opinions attempting to give best advice for SplitSss with good intentions.

I really didn’t take anything upsetting, but starting to feel some keyboard targeting.

Yes gph not gpm. My talk to text picks up my most frequently spoken items, autocorrects and I dont catch em all.

I noticed you are somewhat new here Roy, so my offtrack things about the other ip and stuff was trying to explain a little that ive spun a wrench or two on them professionally in fleets, dealerships, as well as having worked directly with GM and training at Stanandyne.

I dont think you caught that I agree- only use the factory style LP when a good one is not affordable. Folks here ran the carters- give it time and mileage and the pressure fluctuations come. Much better than the factory- agreed.

But some thing you maybe dont know- a crap ton of guys here have done different versions of FTB with factory and upgraded LP, includes carter and much more expensive ones. and the one you described is the first bad result I have heard of. So if you had issues, I get being leary.

But really to Mention carb compliance is odd to me. I mean, idk anyone that has not done 4” exhaust and that is an easier ‘foul’ yet doesnt polliute anymore, and infact lowers emmisions because the less restrictive flow allows the catch bucket to hold more soot. And using a 3/8” fue line inplace of 5/16 being a breach but a higher volume and pressure pump is ok? Not Arguing with you, but I would in court. I have been taken to the court room on a few occasions over smog laws here in Nv. Never lost a case yet. Idk about Cali, but OP is in KY where I have some friends. They were amazed to here anybody smogs a diesel that old, but who knows.

Ya know the clear line test stanandyne and gm show to do? Clear on return then if needed filter to ip and verify if air intrusion is being caused by leaking ip seals? That isn’t compliant by Federal DOT laws. The truck was designed with sae30r5 line, which no clear line meets. Yet that is proper procedure. And upgrading to sae30r9 is required to withstand ethonal/ methonal in modern diesel and biodiesel. And the dimension internally is actually larger by 1mm. At least Gates brand, Is that illegal? Does CARB over rule DOT or he other way around because they conflict if making the ID larger isn’t allowed. Is smaller id allowed? Better off to swap all the 3/8 sae30r9 from tank to filter down to 5/16 and the filter to ip 5/16 down to 1/4”?

You said the carter being completely dead will not let the engine run. The factory lp is designed “flow on fail” after the class 6&7 teuck lawsuits GM lost. If driving down the hiway and LP totally dies, it can not legally kill the engine because both steering and brakes are engine power dependant. DOT is VERY clear on this. You modified your and recomend modifications to others not fixing the issue even though you work in the stanandyne certified shop? (Was that the right gold sticker star applied?) hmm. Kinda ass hole of ME to put it that way. The normal me would simply recommend the same safety fix for that situation I have before: a bypassing loop so the ip can suck fuel around a totally locked up LP rotory pump. Ya see, it could be in the literal thousands of these engines I worked on, I ran into that back in the day.
But rather than trying to sound the expert on everything I commonly bow down to many of the folks here that trump my capacity on many things and learn from them still. You are coming across as a know it all and a keyboard warrior. I was wondering if I Was just reading something into it that wasn’t there. But the 5th person from here that texted me personally to comment has affirmed my opinion.

Sorry meant to stay side tracked longer before getting to the hopefully most useable point, so...

Ever put non stock tire size on a truck that isnt on the sticker? I have had that ticket too. Back when I owned a truck equipment shop and was doing stuff for gubmint agencies. Know what I did? I red tagged All the City of North Las Vegas fire trucks as I was the rated 3rd party inspector. 20 minutes into it the Mayor, I and the officer had a meeting. Hmm. Ya know, they don’t write those tickets anymore for some reason. I know WAY OFF POINT, right? No. Pointing out a right fight answer to a minor legal detail that may or may not apply can have a million variations.

But is still brings me back to the options of newer updates that would meet spec. Did you know there are 2004 hummers with centermount turbo 6.5s that run db2s? Did you know they came with the ford 3/8” end? Can’t you use a newer year Carb compliant component on older vehicles and stay in compliance? You know the modded Banks design upgraded factory ds4 hummers had the entire fuel system up to 1/2”? Im sure ya do. Ya sound very educated.

All that said,
I never want anyone to do anything that breaks the law or pollution is worse. The coal rolling crowd really wrecked it for the rest of us.

It puzzled me that you seem to rebuild ip but dont know that db and ds pumps will start and drive without a liftpump. They have crappy performance and a ds4 will will learch, or fishbite as a bunch here call it. I know you dont want to bypass your Lp just to see, but when I had to install a 3rd pmd on my rigs or the 2nd on a customers, I would unplug to see how crappy the ip was. The excessive wear of ip puts such a load on pmd that it wipes them out quick. If the bypassed LP causes no starting or inability to run 55mph flat land- or accelerating almost impossible that is tell tell. Yes I know the big time consuming procedure, but when a customer really cannot afford much in the first place, doing a literal 5 second thing and 2 minutes test drive- I can tell someone if they are in for a quick fix or a day or two if busy beofre their truck is ready and a big invoice is highly likely.
I even do that on test drive before buying them- nothing faster to tell health of ip I have found.

Don’t take what the compromise of multiple engineers, legal department, hr department, and the bean counter ended up having to put on paper as what is the best thing to do in the real world.

I’m gonna pop out, I have to go move my ‘99 savana 6.5 td engine (yup, inown one of those too) over in my garage as it’s in the way for the next task I do in the morning towards upgrades to my optimizer which is hopefully carb compliant for my state- oh wait, I dont have to be CARB compliant here because I am not in California. Gonna go put that 3/8 line back on now too.
 
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#60
But really to Mention carb compliance is odd to me. . . . . They were amazed to here anybody smogs a diesel that old, but who knows.

Does CARB over rule DOT or he other way around because they conflict if making the ID larger isn’t allowed. Is smaller id allowed? Better off to swap all the 3/8 sae30r9 from tank to filter down to 5/16 and the filter to ip 5/16 down to 1/4”?

You said the carter being completely dead will not let the engine run. The factory lp is designed “flow on fail” after the class 6&7 teuck lawsuits GM lost. If driving down the hiway and LP totally dies, it can not legally kill the engine because both steering and brakes are engine power dependant. DOT is VERY clear on this.

You are coming across as a know it all and a keyboard warrior. I was wondering if I Was just reading something into it that wasn’t there. But the 5th person from here that texted me personally to comment has affirmed my opinion.

Sorry meant to stay side tracked longer before getting to the hopefully most useable point, so...

Ever put non stock tire size on a truck that isnt on the sticker? I have had that ticket too.

. . . Did you know there are 2004 hummers with centermount turbo 6.5s that run db2s? Did you know they came with the ford 3/8” end?

Can’t you use a newer year Carb compliant component on older vehicles and stay in compliance? You know the modded Banks design upgraded factory ds4 hummers had the entire fuel system up to 1/2”? Im sure ya do. Ya sound very educated.

All that said,
I never want anyone to do anything that breaks the law or pollution is worse. The coal rolling crowd really wrecked it for the rest of us.

It puzzled me that you seem to rebuild ip . . . a load on pmd that it wipes them out quick.

I dont have to be CARB compliant here because I am not in California. Gonna go put that 3/8 line back on now too.
Will . . .

I would not continue to dig a public hole like this

Not talking about smogging a Diesel . . . talking about what can one be fined for MODIFYING an emission control system vehicle. In California if it is not OEM - or functionally identical it is illegal to do for especially a business. While only thirteen states follow and adopt CARB regs and orders - but here is the danger zone - if a person does a mod and the "buyer" shows up anytime later "unhappy" and can prove it is modded- the shop has to return it to stock at their cost. DOT AND CARB are sort of apples and oranges = while CARB and EPA are two of a kind - and here is the funky crap CARB over rules them both. The Clean Air Act started in California and the Federal law yields to state law on almost everything.

They are Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico (2011 model year and later), New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington, as well as the District of Columbia.

But I am not talking about being CARB compliant as it is unlawful even under Federal law to do a mod - like this - but of course no one will check - anywhere - I am just saying the FTB mod does actually nothing one way or the other with a strong proper lift pump like I describe,

If you have pressure you have volume and a larger line does nothing but CAN drop pressure slightly

The guy who did it on his van also had a weak OEM lift pump and it sent it over the edge to pressure too low,

I never said the "carter being completely dead will not let the engine run" . . . I said if it dies on a dead lift pump you likely will not get it started again. The way the throttle achieved on a DS4 - without enough pressure it likely will not idle - or will just cut of - or on coast will cut off returning to idle.

The answer is the rotary vane pump and to carry a replacement spare if for some reason it dies or shorts. You wont get one in most auto part store walking in.

Will L. wrote "You are coming across as a know it all and a keyboard warrior"

I do not call names of any kind or write flippant comments as you seem to like to . . . I know what I know and nothing more - maybe because I studied Mechanical Engineering in College . . . before switching to Law - and of one thing I am sure the OEM lift pump is a ridiculous design using a spring and a solenoid and calling it a "pump". Whoever is texting you personally does not speak well of you or that person - these are facts about a diesel science issue - and to make it snarky because of extinction hostility is sad. I understand an internet Gang mentality - of "community" it is well documented in several book of what happens when a newcomer appears.

The OP needed to know the FTB mod was not only not necessary - it was also unwise to do the FTB mod - but to put on the lift pump was all that was needed. Though I did not say it - he would be better using the pressure check location to adapt the Schrader vale to mount an electronic sensor for oil pressure.

I watched much of the Engineering Physics class withdraw - one by one because they could not grasp the fluid dynamics side of Physics where Boyles law is found. There is a scuba compressor called the "Shoe Box" at http://www.shoeboxcompressor.com/ It takes a standard air compressor as a first stage - and then using smaller lines and pistons can compress to 3500 psi

The diesel IP is no different - but the DS4 is finicky because of its electronic throttle design. It will cut out on you at highway speeds and that is another reason GM tanked the whole project. That and the Isuzu copy we all call the Duramax was a design that could meet emissions. A common rail design illustrates Boyles law also.

The FTB mod does the opposite instead of forcing fluid through a small line for higher pressure it does the opposite

The Stanadyne authorized shop is closed now and both me and the owner (old military diesel tech) are retired - and I have have probably forgotten more about engines and things than most ever knew in the first place

Yes I know about the Hummer - DB2 - 6.5 entire thing . . . and to answer the question is technically no . . . you cannot inter change parts legally. I know about the tire laws - and in many cases that is GREAT it stops the consumer from buying cheaper tires more dangerous. When I got the van - it had brand new - p235 4 ply tires on it. Of course as a 9000 pound vehicle it needed load range E or ten ply or better. I did not think I would make it from Jersey to California - and I did not Shredded one rear - and the other was separating. New tires on the front so if the others went I would not loose control. 100 miles later shredded another on the rear - I had two good tires back at home . . . so I had a good Samaritan help me find the local bone yard in the middle of corn field after corn field in Indiana who had 235/85 r 16 load range E Firestones worn but serviceable. It was basically a farmers front yard and his shop.

We went through the CARB process to get an EO and in the end it is not worth it - because all some one had to do is prepare a plate stating what their product was functionally identical to - as in your EO - and under cut the price and it is a loss of time and effort to have got it at all

Will L wrote " It puzzled me that you seem to rebuild ip . . . a load on pmd that it wipes them out quick. "

It is not my position to push something to the limit to see far it can go before failing. Mine is the opposite. The Fuel Solenoid as I said in one of my post somewhere blows the PMD, and I would never try to run a DS4 to kill it - it has been my experience the DS4 is subject to try to having timing changed by the stepper motor (depending on which year binary also) also in response to low fuel pressure - or no fuel pressure - and it will cut off. I have seen it do this looking at it on the test stand using the Stanadyne test module computer on a Hartridge test stand. One can feel how hot both the Fuel Solenoid and PMD and pump housing gets, and nothing good comes of it - so I would never drive a vehicle to scar up the plungers and do more damage. Super unwise it is.

Again not talking about Banks and other things . . . they get CARB EO's for everything they mod and have a right to sell

The destructive things you do to allegedly make a point, are not helpful to the OP - and to argue a point like beating a dead horse is puzzling but for Testosterone pushing the need to do so even if a male of the human species is wrong or making a reckless point.
 
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