• Welcome to The Truck Stop! We see you haven't REGISTERED yet.

    Your truck knowledge is missing!
    • Registration is FREE , all we need is your birthday and email. (We don't share ANY data with ANYONE)
    • We have tons of knowledge here for your diesel truck!
    • Post your own topics and reply to existing threads to help others out!
    • NO ADS! The site is fully functional and ad free!
    CLICK HERE TO REGISTER!

    Problems registering? Click here to contact us!

    Already registered, but need a PASSWORD RESET? CLICK HERE TO RESET YOUR PASSWORD!

Gail Banks

schiker

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,776
Reaction score
1,247
Location
Pendleton, SC
Episode 11 now it's getting a lot more interesting to me. This episode starts to be more similar to a 6.5 build IMO. Now at the end of 11 and what will be 12 he is finally pushing past the easy bolt-on stuff and easy tuning of adding more fuel and needs to start looking at the rest of the package and hot rod more things.


With the new 50 over injectors (is that 0.050 over? in orifice size?), it looked like the quicker shot of diesel actually dosed the combustion a bit to retard the timing of cylinder pressure peak.

He talks about the timing at TDC and no mechanical advantage to make torque. I did not hear much about how hard it was on the main webs, piston, and connecting rods to do this for no gain. (Which I'd like to tangent off later on comparing to a 6.5)
 
Last edited:

schiker

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,776
Reaction score
1,247
Location
Pendleton, SC
Interesting to also think about how balanced or imbalanced each cylinder might affect things. He can estimate cylinder fill % by averaging it over all the cylinders from manifold mass flow rates but not sure he can get that down to each cylinder?
 
Last edited:

Chewy1576

Well-Known Member
Messages
124
Reaction score
261
Interesting to also think about how balanced or imbalanced each cylinder might affect things. He can estimate cylinder fill % by averaging it over all the cylinders from manifold mass flow rates but not sure he can get that down to each cylinder?
I think it's a function of rail pressure and injection time?
 

schiker

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,776
Reaction score
1,247
Location
Pendleton, SC
Now he is pushing so much air through the engine I was thinking of the air fill % of each cylinder. He starts talking about piping as a teaser and the bends and routing of the exhaust mainfold and tail pipe size.
 

Chewy1576

Well-Known Member
Messages
124
Reaction score
261
Now he is pushing so much air through the engine I was thinking of the air fill % of each cylinder. He starts talking about piping as a teaser and the bends and routing of the exhaust mainfold and tail pipe size.
Ah yes, the exhaust back pressure, or drive pressure. Hes taking things to extremes with GM/Izuzu's latest and greatest, but I think the principle is still true for all turbocharged applications. In a 6.5L, its seen at a much lower place because the stock turbo is so bad. We can change the turbo for something more efficient, and we can change the crossover pipe to something bigger, the only thing we cant change is the manifolds unless someone starts building a header with big primaries and mandrel bends.
 

Twisted Steel Performance

Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
Vendor
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
3,675
Location
Pauline, SC
We can change the turbo for something more efficient, and we can change the crossover pipe to something bigger, the only thing we cant change is the manifolds unless someone starts building a header with big primaries and mandrel bends.
Well funny you mentioned this, I have a friend who has a friend at "Borla" a engineer, through talks between us something may come about in time, first I will need to tack up what I want, then send it to Borla, the friend will then Faro everything, make the tubes and send everything back for me to weld up and test, NOT FOR FREE mind you... From what I have been able to find out the cost would not be easy for folks to swallow, with requiring new down pipe, etc...

Once I'm caught up, and my motor is built, my new intake is built, this will be next, it's going to require the motor being in the truck and the front striped down for access, and with mine being a 93, I doubt it would be a bolt on for any gmt400...

And my plan, altho it may not work, is to split the d/s side and send them around the front & rear while the p/s is also split... it looks doable just looking but once I get into it my fab skills will need to be what they were years ago.. and their may not be enough room for my plan.. lots of plans just not enough time right now LOL....
 

THEFERMANATOR

FRANKENBURBAN
Staff member
Lead Moderator
Messages
9,992
Reaction score
4,185
Location
ZEPHYRHILLS FL
Episode 11 now it's getting a lot more interesting to me. This episode starts to be more similar to a 6.5 build IMO. Now at the end of 11 and what will be 12 he is finally pushing past the easy bolt-on stuff and easy tuning of adding more fuel and needs to start looking at the rest of the package and hot rod more things.


With the new 50 over injectors (is that 0.050 over? in orifice size?), it looked like the quicker shot of diesel actually dosed the combustion a bit to retard the timing of cylinder pressure peak.

He talks about the timing at TDC and no mechanical advantage to make torque. I did not hear much about how hard it was on the main webs, piston, and connecting rods to do this for no gain. (Which I'd like to tangent off later on comparing to a 6.5)
50 over means the injector orifices are 50% larger. This does not give you 50% more fuel like most would think, but it helps in many areas. He talked about injection window or the amount of crankshaft rotation that the injector is open. By injecting the same amount of fuel in a narrower window, you can decrease the amount of time it takes to inject X amount of fuel. You want to inject your fuel as quickly as possible so you can get it all in while the piston is just starting over, and the combistion event occurs while still at peak cylinder pressure to take maximum advantage of it. And also it allows you to get the heat out the exhaust and not hold it in the cylinder by getting the combustion and injection events done well before the exhaust valve opens. This allows you to better use the heat to spool the turbo instead if it staying in the cylinder and having to shed it through the cooling system. This is why you get quicker spool up with bigger injectors while maintaining better egt's abd ect's.
 

schiker

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,776
Reaction score
1,247
Location
Pendleton, SC
Its definately in the tuning. He talks about the 40 degree crank angle as his rule of thumb for end of the injection zone.

Typing out some thinking. Saying it differently....

I'd like to see more detail in the correlation of cylinder peak pressure/ cylinder pressure fall off and crank rotation. I suspect at over 40 degree crank rotation the piston is now traveling faster in down stroke and the time elapse window is closing for being able to raise pressure worth the temp rise from new fuel being injected. Diesel might not be able to combust in enough time to thermally raise the air pressure due to temp change when its injected later especially as rpm rise (piston speed increases). So just more fuel hurts you at some point because it causes RPM's to rise.

This sorta ties into the ethanol injected Diesel cycle engine thread.

I find it interesting how in one run Banks asked the throttle man if he could back down the RPM's some. To me "Diesel has a wider loading zone" Especially with the newer technology of multiple injections per stroke. With classic gas you spark and explode, the fuel to air ratio is a smaller window, and the BTU's are locked in when the valve closes. You are then sorta limited to what you get, mostly you can only play with spark timing and tune air flow. It will load and run at a smaller window of RPM for the combustion event. With common rail electronic injection Diesel cycle now you can have multiple injections and thus tune the timing and size of injection for rpm/load.

There are big pressure/temperature variables. As pressure increase so does temperature and vice versa. The hotter it is the faster stuff burns generally and same for Diesel. So a good bit is left of the table for tuning a sweet spot to build big number differences between stock and performance tune. Especially in a steady state dyno load vs. all the variables of traffic & emissions. All Banks seems to worry about on emissions is fuel to air ratio. But Nitrous Oxide is another emission that limits oxygen and temperature ( thus pressure) of stock tunes.
 

MrMarty51

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,287
Reaction score
4,873
Location
Miles City, Montana
And so, I may be wrong in this view, the single injection of the lower pressure diesel injectors also acts some what like the gas engine. One intake cycle, velve closes, then fuel is injected so, the only thing left to mess with is the air intake and timing and or add or subtract the amount of fuel or, the style of the atomization ? ? ? ?
 

schiker

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,776
Reaction score
1,247
Location
Pendleton, SC
Yeah, I agree our pop injectors systems are more like gas cycle. You still have some advantage with the diesel fuel having higher octane and longer “burn” , more BTU’s, and much wider air fuel ratio vs gas. So they started tuning the injection and it maybe has a bigger window variation than spark vs crank angle with temperature differences. Thus the development of the electronic IP the advantage of ds pump more control over the injection than DB pump. Common rail is just the next generation and even more tunable.
 

Chewy1576

Well-Known Member
Messages
124
Reaction score
261
I believe in the latest video he discusses how the higher flow injectors move the combustion event and peak cylinder pressure a few degrees later in the crank rotation. The piston is further away from max position and moving down, maximizing the downward force of the combustion event.
 

THEFERMANATOR

FRANKENBURBAN
Staff member
Lead Moderator
Messages
9,992
Reaction score
4,185
Location
ZEPHYRHILLS FL
Bigger injectors allow you to inject the fuel in a smaller window. Thats how you change the timing, instead of needing 40 degrees of crank rotation to inject X amount of fuel, you can now do it in 32 degrees. By taking less time to inject it, you can inject it later and still get it all in before cylinder pressure falls off to the point it will no longer burn it all.

There is alot that goes into injector sizing. You have to be able to get enough fuel in to reach your power goals, do it in a narrow enough window you can take advantage of it, but not go so big that you can't control them at low power levels, and make sure the injectors can do this at the expected RPM range the engine will run at.

As to multiple injections, this is primarily for emissions and sound control. At max power they all pretty much go back to 1, maybe 2 injection events.
 

Husker6.5

135' diagonal 16:9HD, 25KW sound!
Messages
2,343
Reaction score
2,308
Location
Lincoln, NE

Twisted Steel Performance

Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
Vendor
Messages
2,678
Reaction score
3,675
Location
Pauline, SC
I agree 100% as well, the better the flow of air is the more fuel that can be burnt cleanly, and their needs to be room for all that added air and fuel, 21:1 compression will kill.......... I've always told customers the total package should complement the desired results, just bolting on things and expecting a certain outcome just doesn't play well...

I'm no engine dyno expert by any means but watching the video Gale watched is just outright funny and to think they made it public, laughable comes to mind....
 

Will L.

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,059
Reaction score
13,928
Location
Boulder City Nv
Yeah and no to Gail. No doubt he is a top master in diesel, charged air systems, etc. But the core differences of run a gas engine rich and it gets destroyed, run it lean and it burns holes in pistons.
On diesel, too lean is simply less throttle and too rich is too much throttle. Crazy stupid levels of too much unburned diesel fuel making a trail like a steam locomotive is putting way too much carbon in your crankcase and buildup of carbon everywhere from cylinders out the tailpipe. But you have to literally drown it to put out the flame and cause hydrolock.
We’ve all seen tractor pulls where the diesel pollution is equal to a small city and sometimes the engine goes boom. 472F1DBD-1B4A-44BA-B315-BBE0909CE7DF.png
Is this lack of air for the amount of fuel being shoved down the cylinders? Yes. But if their engine could handle one more pound of air without blowing the head(s) off, they add it.
I imagine Gail COULD build the best tractor in the world, but his best dmax numbers so far in racing has been matched by many out there that are doing it by using not enough air and a lot of smoke - but they are doing it with tens of thousands of dollars less per engine too.
To build record setting engines is simply how much money are you going to throw at it once you get to a certain point. The Banks way of doing it is surely better for long term engine life. But when one engine costs 3-4 times as much, sometimes it’s better to blow a couple heads off and smoke the racetrack.

If the EPA gets their way and no smoke or anything beyond factory smog gets in place, Banks would win all classes for a year or two, until someone reads the part of the law saying you can’t modify anything in the fueling or the exhaust system. So it’s a moot point anyway.
 

THEFERMANATOR

FRANKENBURBAN
Staff member
Lead Moderator
Messages
9,992
Reaction score
4,185
Location
ZEPHYRHILLS FL
This was a made for tv special build of thrown together parts to fit in a specific envelope. He knew nothing of the build and paid no attention to details that were said in the full video where they said that wasn't the intercooler for the car. They even said in the full video they knew they had problems that needed to be fixxed.

The TV production crew said the engine had to be on the dyno at X time, regardless of wether it was done or not. This was the 1st time this engine had run, and the production crew was pushing for big numbers.

There is alot more to this story, but Gale sure made some enemies over this "marketing video" he did to basically pat himself on the back about how much he knows.
 
Top