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Ds4 on Ford IDI?

The driven direction of the input shaft controls the direction it turns.

Jack shaft: Lets say you have a long shaft bolted to the timing gear long enough so other end terminates about the center of engine valley. Now turn IP so its input shaft faces the rear of the truck, mesh the two with a one to one gear and Voilà
Lot simpler said than done. You'll also need a sturdy bracket to hold IP inplace
 
Yes, I believe the cam ring (its profile/ramp orientation) is the foundation for direction of rotation.

Also, the timing mechanism is a piston and stepper motor combo. The piston is at the bottom of the pump. IF I remember right and understand it correctly the fuel pressure supplies the force to change/rotate the cam ring / timing and the stepper controls the force. I am not sure how that could be reversed (to fight the torque of direction change).

Since you mentioned a custom mount adapter I also thought about either a "V" drive or maybe some custom double drive gears to reverse the direction.

You would probably have to do this anyway to try and compensate for different crankshaft/piston stroke ????? If its possible?
 
Last edited:
Burning oil said:
The driven direction of the input shaft controls the direction it turns.

Jack shaft: Lets say you have a long shaft bolted to the timing gear long enough so other end terminates about the center of engine valley. Now turn IP so its input shaft faces the rear of the truck, mesh the two with a one to one gear and Voilà
Lot simpler said than done. You'll also need a sturdy bracket to hold IP inplace
Click to expand...

I misspoke when I was talking about how the jack shaft would affect the IP. The problem I would still run into would be it trying to operate in a direction it was not intended to run. It would still probably have issues with the optic sensor and stepper motor I would assume.
 
schiker said:
Yes, I believe the cam ring (its profile/ramp orientation) is the foundation for direction of rotation.

Also, the timing mechanism is a piston and stepper motor combo. The piston is at the bottom of the pump. IF I remember right and understand it correctly the fuel pressure supplies the force to change/rotate the cam ring / timing and the stepper controls the force. I am not sure how that could be reversed (to fight the torque of direction change).

Since you mentioned a custom mount adapter I also thought about either a "V" drive or maybe some custom double drive gears to reverse the direction.

You would probably have to do this anyway to try and compensate for different crankshaft/piston stroke ????? If its possible?
Click to expand...

All the extra stuff is why I believe it would just be easier to have new injector lines made and correlate them to the correct cylinder. This would seem to be much easier IMO.
 
The jack shaft idea would allow the pump to run the same direction it does in a GM truck. If you went with the jackshaft design in the valley, then a belt drive from it to the DS4, you could turn the pump around and make it run the correct direction. You could also incorporate the crank sensor arrqangement into the jackshaft. As to the DS4's fuel output, it will never touch what a DB4 can do. On a GOOD day you can hope to see 89-92MM3 of fuel from it under real world conditions at 3K RPM's. Even the DB2 used on the turbo 6.5s is capable of more fuel, and it doesn't hold a candle to what the FORD DB4 can do.
 
OH yeah your right Ferm, a gear drive jackshaft like I said would turn the IP is same direction as it does when mounted in stock config, so yes a pulley or chain type drive would spin it opposite from stock just like 88Ford wants
Seems like a lot of work, but would be cool to see the Ford DB4 on a 6.5

I remembered the corvette's had a blower drive system that is very similar to what I was talking about. See the picture, but imagine the front pulley being bolted directly to timing gear.

jackshaft drive ideas for ip1.jpg
 
I think you still have to gear it correctly so what is it 2 revs of crank is equal to 1 rev of IP? That would time 1 cylinder. I am not sure if timing between cylinders would stay same as 1 rev and 8 cylinders is same. Yes lines could be made to correct order but not rotational time.
 
Just need a one to one ratio.
Ford firing order is different Im sure, but since new lines have to be made you can make each line go to whatever cylinder you want. Not sure what you mean "rotational time"
 
If I just let it spin like it does on a 6.5 I think it would be fine as long as I matched to the Ford firing order. The Ford firing order is 12734568. The 6.5 order is 18726543 correct? So if I matched the Fords cylinder 1 to spot one on the Ds4 and cylinder 2 to spot 8 and so on... I think it would work. I would just need new injector lines. Does the 6.5 IP gear rotate the same direction as the Ford? I was under the assumption that it did and only the pumps spin opposite.

After that, I would need to mount it properly and work the sensors and electronics out.
 
THEFERMANATOR said:
The jack shaft idea would allow the pump to run the same direction it does in a GM truck. If you went with the jackshaft design in the valley, then a belt drive from it to the DS4, you could turn the pump around and make it run the correct direction. You could also incorporate the crank sensor arrqangement into the jackshaft. As to the DS4's fuel output, it will never touch what a DB4 can do. On a GOOD day you can hope to see 89-92MM3 of fuel from it under real world conditions at 3K RPM's. Even the DB2 used on the turbo 6.5s is capable of more fuel, and it doesn't hold a candle to what the FORD DB4 can do.
Click to expand...

I know the modified Db4 can push a lot but there has to be a way to get more out of a Ds4, even if it doing it electrically. Maybe there is a possibility of producing a PMD module that would have a high enough voltage to produce maximum IP volume. The max voltage stock is 5vdc correct? Doesn't a resistor #9 replacement try to accomplish what I am talking about to a smaller degree? What does the voltage go up to after that resistor is replaced?
 
I guess Ford's drive gear is turning the correct speed just the wrong direction. I was mixing up a GM drive gear in my mind for some reason. 1:1 drive gears or sprocket sizes from Ford's drive gear to IP rotor would keep rotational speed correct.

IF the guy could mount 2 DB pumps on that tractor its probably doable in some V drive, jackshaft, and or sprocket system with an extra gear to change direction or mount the IP in a backwards orientation etc . Probably more feasible than changing direction internal to the IP.

Was wondering about time between cylinder but 8 cylinders is 8 cylinders. Not sure how much piston stroke would affect the performance match up. Would think its somewhat of a big deal as peak cylinder pressure management would be different.
 
How much room do you have over the front of the engine? Mount the pump over top of the crank pulley instead of the valley. I cant remember too much in the way of the last ford I worked on. Save jack shaft, drive belt, etc. just an altered mount plate. A little longer lines, but they are custom anyways.

I would say if you are thinking about correcting the fsd/pmd problem, tackle that first. If you come up with one that doesn't burn up all the time, you could make a big chunk of cash selling those to the 6.5 crowd. Then once that is tackled it could help pay for the rest of the project.

I'll say kinda nuts :wacky: for trying the ds4 onto the ford, but my hats off to you for being willing to try it. Those of us who have owned ds4 vs db2 tend to have a biased opinion.
 
I don't think the output of the GM DS4 is limited by electronics. Its reliability is limited but not output. Its the physical size of the cam ring, rotor, and plungers that limits the output.

The resistor is just a calibration adjustment for bench test it doesn't change output significantly I don't think.
 
schiker said:
I don't think the output of the GM DS4 is limited by electronics. Its reliability is limited but not output. Its the physical size of the cam ring, rotor, and plungers that limits the output.

The resistor is just a calibration adjustment for bench test it doesn't change output significantly I don't think.
Click to expand...
What he said. The DS4 just cannot mechanically push that much fuel. Mathematically it SHOULD be capable of somewhere around 110-120MM3 of fuel, but with pumping losses due to tolerances and pressure, it only pushes around 89-92MM3 of fuel. I know one person has said he was able to put in bigger plungers, but he has yet to find somebody to calibrate it for him. Others have said it is impossible to fit anything bigger inside of it. GM only specced these pumps to move 64MM3 of fuel, so going to far over this is pushing it.
 
Ok so I was watching YouTube videos and from what I can tell the engines spin the same way. I saw some videos of the engines on the stand and it looks like the flywheel on both spin counter clockwise when you are facing the flywheel. So am I missing something? As I see it, there isn't a need for a jack shaft. I just need to swap the injector lines to the proper firing order since it spins opposite and then it should be fine.

As for the Ds4 output, I guess I did read that it was capable of only around 90cc cus of flow instead of the 120cc that it should mathematically push. But that is something to worry about after I get it one (if I can).
 
The problem lies in the fact teh international uses a gear drive to drive the cam, and GM used a chain. So the camshaft spins the same direction in a GM as the drankshaft, but in the international the camshaft spins the opposite direction of the crankshaft. They both drive the injection pump directly off the camshaft 1:1, so thus the injection pump turns the opposite direction between the 2 since the cams spin opposite of each other.
 
Gear drive must be different in the Ford if IP spins opposite way.
I don't know much about what you have, or are doing. Was just trying to offer a solution to turn IP in an opposite direction. (seemed to be the question at the time)
If Ford and Chevy IP actually turn same way then you may have one problem solved.

Edit: Ferm beat me to the reply, was typing as he posted :)
 
Ah crap. I did not think about that. I wonder about the internals then? It would be a lot easier if direction had no affect on it then...
 
Burning oil said:
Gear drive must be different in the Ford if IP spins opposite way.
I don't know much about what you have, or are doing. Was just trying to offer a solution to turn IP in an opposite direction. (seemed to be the question at the time)
If Ford and Chevy IP actually turn same way then you may have one problem solved.

Edit: Ferm beat me to the reply, was typing as he posted :)
Click to expand...

Ford aka International's setup is simplicity at its best, one crank gear mesh's with a cam gear, that's it and why the cam turns backwards. We have a timing chain as you know and to run a gear set, we need one with an idler. If billets were affordable, I'd have a cam made for our engines and do the same as a Ford and run a Ford pump.

I will have a reluctor gear for sale soon if interested.
 
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