635 Rebuild cont.

[turbonator]

I understood it to be mainly in the exhaust elbows but there is a difference in the two impellers upon closer inspection. Perhaps I could swap both the housings and impellers? Shafts are probably just different enough to prevent that though.

It would be really good info to take all the measurements of wheels and housings, to post up while you have the two tore down:thumbsup:.....it is not information that has been readily available. Maybe even a couple close up pics of the compressor and turbine wheels, that way, someone can estimate the trims from the pictures......we all know you are always looking for little side projects to occupy your free time....:hihi:

 

[Paveltolz]

It would be really good info to take all the measurements of wheels and housings, to post up while you have the two tore down:thumbsup:.....it is not information that has been readily available. Maybe even a couple close up pics of the compressor and turbine wheels, that way, someone can estimate the trims from the pictures......we all know you are always looking for little side projects to occupy your free time....:hihi:

If that last line is an example of Quebecian Humor...I like it.:rof:
I might as well seeing as how after spraying the valley down with Dawn liquid soap and water (1:5) along with the bottom of the motor, transmission, bell housing, cross members, radiator where the AT fluid leaked and down the front where it all ran; then spraying it all off with low pressure hot water and then driving for 100 miles today there was no motor oil to be found on or under the motor, flex plate cover, starter, torsion bars...anywhere under there. Be still my beating heart, could it be, success?:???:
As much as I want to call this project a success at this point, I'll continue to monitor things very closely, if only out of morbid curiousity:skep:

I'm surmising that there was enough oil from the gallery plug sprayed around the back of the oil pan and main seal that no amount of wiping and such was getting it all and with the fuel spill washing down the remaining and thinning it out, it was able to get wind whipped around on to the starter, oil pan along the block's edge and down the main seal etc.

With the leak stopped at the IP return line and the fuel cleaned out of the valley then washed all down with grease/oil cutting soap in mass quantities, I'm thinking positive thoughts. Then again, if I've only cleaned off the excess and the leak just has to work its way further to get noticed again....
So, until the leak shows up again, or not, I can now use my 'spare time' to get out the micrometer and measure stuff!:agreed:

 

[SS FORCE]

If you wanted the GMX-8 off of my truck it would just give me more reason to speed up the install of my HX-35. Hit me up if your interested

 

[orrum]

Hey Paul sounds like you are really gettin it done now! Bet you like driving the truck again! When is the salt flats?

 

[Paveltolz]

Hey Paul sounds like you are really gettin it done now! Bet you like driving the truck again! When is the salt flats?

Howdy Bill. good to see you on line again. Did I win? Husker said it was a race to see if the truck got done or you healed first.

Salt Flats have three events. August, Sept and October.
One of the things Bill and I will talk over this Friday is the rule book and getting tires and rims so I can actually make a run. I'll be looking for a 3:42 rear end, complete, this summer and will drop the truck to stock height too. After the salt flats, I'll get a proper lift done by some lads up in Kaysville. Anymore salt flat runs will be in another vehicle...with a 6.5 hybred in it.

If you plan on coming out, plan for October. It isn't as crazy as August but it isn't furnace hot either.

Today's adventures. 200 miles of driving and no leaks. Well, maybe exhaust...
I torqued the cross over bolts to 26lbs, removed the splash plate, loosened the fan belt, swapped out the HB Pulley and buttoned it all up. Total time to include clean up was 45 minutes! That's just wrong. Should have taken half a day at least.:rolleyes5:

 

[handcannon]

You're getting tooo experienced at working on that truck.

Don

 

[Paveltolz]

Yeah, the truck has definitely given me the opportunity to excel.

Left the house in time to meet SS Force and grab his ECM so he could get a reflash of his GL4 to better suite the HX35 (I think). Door to door delivery, just one of the services I offer.
Made it to Ellensburg after a long delay outside of Wells NV for a wreck. Fiat clown car and 80's Firebird got together on bad section of road so both north and south traffic on US-97 formed parades for about an hour or so before we got let through. One guy on the CB said, "I thought Truckers were supposed to know the short cuts and ways around delays." I chimed in "Difference between Truckers and Professional Drivers I guess." SILENCE! snicker.

I went through Boise right at evening rush hour so kept at 60 and watched the show. I also watched the odometer indicate that the first of two thousand miles rolled over. Half way to fun meter pegging. In the meantime though, I can feel the engine coming alive. It used to feel 'heavy' as the RPMs increased. I try to climb longer grades in third and at freeway speed (65+) there was a kind of "not to day feel' about things. After crossing into Oregon and rolling up those hills to include 'three sisters' outside Yakima, that is no longer the case. The feeling now is more along the lines of, 'is this all you got to challenge me with?"
I still accelerate from dead stop with about 1/2 of the normal amount of throttle I usually use but the truck is responding much more affirmatively as well.
I brought the dead GM-8 with me for show-and-tell. If possible to swap housings, 'll take the time to pull the GM-5 and get some measurements while they're both apart. I may not post the results until later though so control yourselves Turbonator.

 

[turbonator]

:reporter: smiling and waiting, have a good trip Paul...

 

[Paveltolz]

Good trip up to Bill's but not without a little drama, of course.
Discovered / confirmed that these Rocky Mount Falkin tires are about the worst for rolling resistance ever. I crested the hill before Ellensburg that I used to kick into neutral at the top with the speed at 70 and coast down and would normally reach near 80. That was with the BF Goodrich AT's. These Falkins held me at 60 the whole way except for the slowing down part and with that new bumper and winch I'm a little heavier than before. Bill had mentioned the issue when he had the truck last summer but I hadn't seen it for myself until today. Well now, that explains a few things to include the economy and the 'feels like the e-brake is on' feeling.

At about 1000 miles the motor seemed to start coming alive. Going up hill at 70 in 3rd the motor had felt heavy or lugging but that was at 750 miles. Then while climbing out of Ontario OR I was at 70 again (I'd been varying speed every couple of songs by 3-5 mph since Salt Lake) so I pulled it down to 3rd again and zoom.
This is fun. On the flats outside Pendleton I got a little more assertive with the throttle changes and yes, 'it is alive.' I took Ted for a ride the next morning and ran it up to 85-90 just riding the power, not slamming into it and with the roads wet the tires broke momentarily at the shift to OD at 70. Ok, the road was probably icy there as the pass was closed the night before. Still...

We set the timing on the IP after I got a lesson on finding and loosening IP bolts as it was off by 'just enough' to make it unhappy. Then we went for as few spins as he dialed things in and I have to say that his 'easy on the throttle pedal' is a lot more fun than mine! Yahoo. I'll still granny this thing, for the most part, for another thousand or so miles (currently at 2300) on the OD but I'm pleased to be able to have some fun and appreciation for the project.

Drama.
On the way home, I made a check stop and noticed that the slight seep at the turbo's oil feed line was seemingly worse. Being an AN fitting, I attempted to make repairs...not so much. Now it was a more like a weeping. Made another attempt and it seemed better so off I went. As the sun began to set in the rear view mirror I realized I was killing every mosquito along the freeway so I pulled over and I had quite the mess in there as it was now a full on leak. I put it over the oil fill tube and started it to observe the flow and the volume coming out was still good but yeah, it was dripping down the line out the back of the fitting. I apparently got the inner liner of the hose pinched back under the fitting creating a path out and the 'repairs' only compounded the problem. Burely was just ahead with an O'Reilly's that with a little improvisation (3/8" brass barrel fitting and some oil rated fuel line with hose clamps and some heat shield sock) got me a leak free repair and safely home.

Just one more thing with these projects.
New Oil Feed Line or repair to this one.
Market for better rolling resistance tires.
More heat shielding for some of the wire looming that seems drawn to the exhaust manifolds (yes, re-routing too).
Then there's the pictures and data on the Turbo's to collect.
Some Lab Rat work looms positive once its fully ready.
Then there's always that shiny thing that makes us all say "SQUIRREL"

 

[Paveltolz]

Hey Look, PICTURES

:reporter: smiling and waiting, have a good trip Paul...

Wait's over.:hihi:
I took them apart and took some pictures with measurements. The turbo's are essentially the same on the front end so the exhaust elbows are apparently the main difference.
First I tried to measure the impeller to inlet edge but there is so much shaft play on my GM-8 that the effort was pointless. The GM-5 came in at .08 without moving the impellers (there's a slight amount of shaft play but .08 didn't move anything and was the same at 3, 6, 9 and 12 O'Clock.

Exhaust Inlets GM-5 and GM 8



Fresh Air Inlet - Air Intake GM-5 and GM 8


Fresh Air Inlet - At the impellers GM-5 and GM 8


Housing Diameter exceeds the calipers but are interchangeable GM-5 and GM 8


Impellers (note the material removed in certain locations at the back of the housing face plate (or whatever it's called)...Balancing?
GM-5



GM-8



Here's the Data
GM-5
Flange Opening Length Width Area
Exhaust Inlet 2.27" 1.77" 4.04"
Fresh Air Inlet 2.04" 12.8"
Fresh Air Outlet 2.2" 13.8"

GM-8
Flange Opening Length Width Area
Exhaust Inlet 2.27' 1.77' 4.04"
Fresh Air Inlet 2.04" 12.8"
Fresh Air Outlet 2.2" 13.8"

 

[Paveltolz]

I swapped the GM-8's Extrude honed intake housing over to the GM-5. Perfect fit, no issues whatsoever.
I checked the blade to housing clearance and it matched the GM-5 housing measurement at .08mm. So, no wear from the GM-8 impellers even with the shaft play.

So, I now have a GM-5 with an extruded intake housing for a truck that doesn't like the GM-5 and a GM-8 with awful shaft play and GM-5 housing complete with "GM-5" on the data plate. Both are sitting on the shelf...

My current *** Turbo pulls like a stabbed rat all the way up to my chicken point on curvy Redwood Rd at 95mph and is still wanting to pull more. The traffic is heavy with returning Easter Campers though so prudence won out.

Need ATT to play with next. Anytime you're ready to swap back....

I have the new wheels to mount the Salt Flat tires on. Steel 16 x 6s which will get Z rated tires to satisfy the Salt Regs. Truck will be fitted with stock leafs and upper control arms and lowered to stock height for the run. After that, the tires go on KSL Classifieds and a correct lift goes under the truck. Looking at September for the run.

Oh yeah, I stopped by SS Force's place to hand deliver the upgraded ECM and plunked down the $$ for ladder bars. This is going to be fun.

 

[ak diesel driver]

Paul before you run on the salt you have to watch the movie called The Worlds fastest Indian. based on a true story. I thought it was great

 

[Paveltolz]

Yes indeed. I saw it in part with a lot of interruptions. Will have to get it. I did enjoy 'The Boys of Bonneville" as well.

 

[Husker6.5]

Wow, that was a lot of reading to catch up on since the beginning of March when my 11 year old laptop took another dump. It's now back up and running and I'm back following the thread.

Gee, Paul, once you've got her nice and broke in and the Bonneville run is over, here's your next GM diesel swap into the pickup to consider: http://youtu.be/m48vyc5beNg!

 

[Husker6.5]

If you're serious about a Bonneville run, drop a 3.21 ring and pinion in it instead of a 3.42 in the 10.5 14 bolt.

 

[Paveltolz]

Bonneville: The only thing getting dropped is the lift, fender flares and the too tall tires. This will be a DD run. All I'm doing in total is "H" rated tires w/ correct rims, Metal Battery retention strap/brackets, Drive Shaft retention loop, correct helmet and ensuring the suspension / steering is up to snuff.

I did some small projects / house cleaning under the hood. Heat Wrapped the Exhaust Elbow. Added some EDI heat tape to hold the galvanized wires in place.


Got the Oil Feed Line repaired, completed a Re-do on the Oil Feed / OPS set up.


Had a slight oil weep from between the upper intake and the spacer so new gaskets, threads and rework on the turbo to intake path. The new turbo is smaller than the GM and the outlet is closer to 1.7" ID vs. the 2".


2" external Diam so a new mandrel bent pipe was sourced and cut to fit. I re-assembled the parts after attaching the upper intake to the lower and torquing the bolts down to the prescribed 17lbs. Then I lined everything up to ensure there wasn't any stress on the joints, ran the 2" up to the Cummins Elbow and used the silicon step-up connector there.

I also sourced a Stainless V-Band clamp on Amazon and it is a bit beefier than our OEM unit. Using the transmission jack to push the cross over flush to the Turbo's exhaust elbow ensured the two meet flush. The rest was easy and the sound is now 'correct.'


I took it for a test run and it pulled 22psi up to 104mph and wanted to go much faster. I have to say, it seemed a lot faster but that's the difference between a lifted truck on a narrow, not so smooth state highway vs. a Saab on the autobahns.

Sorry, no pictures of the run, a little bumpy. Speedometer stops at 100 but the GPS was climbing.

EGT's were at 1300 according to the Isspro EV2 but I'm not sure that gauge is accurate as when I first get in the truck, before starting, it is already at 100*. When I did a quick stop after the run, the EGT's were 800* but the heat gun showed only 440 at the sensor whereas, Trans was 150 and the heat gun showed 152, IAT's were 120* and heat gun said 116. Something isn't right so I'll source another gauge and see what that one shows.

 

[turbovanman]

I've been reading and following, nice build, :thumbsup:

A few quick questions, so you've been running the stock turbo up until now? Do you have the ATT turbo now?

How do you like the cam? Think it really helps over stock?

Thanks.

 

[Paveltolz]

I've been reading and following, nice build, :thumbsup:

A few quick questions, so you've been running the stock turbo up until now? Do you have the ATT turbo now?

How do you like the cam? Think it really helps over stock?

Thanks.

Very much appreciate the compliment and glad someone else is enjoying themselves with this build. Too much fun not to share....

Question 2: With the swap and all the improvements that went with it, I would be hard pressed to identify where the cam is actually factoring in. This motor performs so much better than the old one but we're talking new vs. a power plant with 215K miles. I haven't really put the spurs to it yet either. Pretty much half throttle off the line when playing. Still, between the cam set, the tune, balanced rotating assy, extrude honing, 2400psi balanced H.O. injectors it's hard to say where the improvement is really coming from. The chrome has to be helping to right?

I know it will perform even better with a transmission rebuild and I'm still working with Bill on the tune as I'm getting a lot of fuel delivered through the H.O. injectors. With the altitude here and the set up, I'm obscuring folks with slight throttle blips. It doesn't launch quick but once the boost builds up, it did 85mph in a 1/4 mile and with the weight, tires, gears etc. the 'racer math' works out to a respectable figure.

Up until the engine swap, I've run the GM-5 and the ATT back and forth settling on the GM-5. While the ATT didn't work well for me, Orionthade is running it now and having driven my truck, its performing much better for him with his handshaker. I think I mentioned that my tranny could use a rebuild....

Question 1: Since the swap, I've run a GM-8 with bad shaft play, a GM-5 up to about 1500 miles and am currently running a unit as an experimental. Guess I'm still a bit of a lab rat. I put the GM-5 back on to see what the difference would be since the current one went on at the same time the TDCO got corrected and the tune modified somewhat...DOG. Even at the low end there wasn't anything good to say and it quit, flat "fork stuck in it done" quit at 15psi and dropped off before 70 mph and the truck crawled up to 75. As my EGT's still climbed like a rocket (bad sensor), there was no need to delay swapping it right out and on to the shelf. I would like to run the ATT on it again though so as soon as Orion's done with it, I'll give it a shot; hopefully soon.

Hope this helped with the questions.

 

[Twisted Steel Performance]

Any updates here Paul..... I haven't been able to follow much, have ya dyno'ed yet???

 

[Paveltolz]

Right now the truck is no longer a "K" but a "C" model as the front drive shaft and differential came out. Mainly for the Salt Flats but when the rains came and flooded the course I was putting the new Axles in and the right side drive shaft came unseated from front differential and wouldn't re-seat. So, the differential came out for a rebuild but can't be rebuilt cause parts are discontinued. New take out unit is on the way. It never ends. At least now I can address the slight oil leak I still have at the rear of the block. Probably the bright idea to chrome the pan....

No real updates to the engine build. I haven't run it on the dyno yet. I would like to have the GM-5, ATT and S-84 turbo's available when I do and I haven't heard from Orion lately. Work has had me pretty busy too, thankfully.

I have about 6500 miles on the build. Smokes only under hard throttle applications or putting along in torque lock at 50 and punch it. It will average between 19-21 on the highway at 65mph and pulls hard all the way up to a more socially responsible 85 where I stop but the engine is still making power, even with the GM-5. It's happiest as a daily driver when fitted with OEM upper intake mated to a GM-5, Standard Bosch Injectors, and the modified tune Bill did for my a short time ago.

Getting ready for the Salt Flats with the experimental turbo, tune and HO injectors I've blown the 3”boots off the Peninsular intake sustaining 22psi. Top speed so far has touched 120mph. I'll need a VSSB fooler to get above 130 next year, if I decide to run at all.

I still have that ‘heavy feeling and the EGTs are still higher than I’d like despite any turbo, injector, intake or tune combination I’ve thrown at it. ISSPRO tested the gauge and sender as being accurate at 1000*. The skeptic says, “of course it tested accurate.” Sinicism(sp) seems to have finally caught up to me.
So, to work on the ‘can’t get out of its own way’ syndrome, I have been addressing the driveline. The effort has mainly added pavement and banking to my learning curve, as always.

I did pick up 6 mph on my rolling test hill (start at 55mph, end at 63 where I used to end at 57mph) running without the CV axles (just the joints torqued into the new hubs). Different tires are in order I’m having to finally admit. Currently still running the Faulkin Rocky MTs. I think I’m seeing a BF Goodrich set in my future once I recover from the new front differential and repairing the Passat (tore out the plastic under panels and Uriah injection lines on some high ground last week).