Towing potential advice from those "in the know"

[Tovar]

From the modifications that I have done, what can I expect to tow (total weight) consistently and reliably?

 

[JayTheCPA]

From what I am seeing in the signature, should be good for at least the rating per owner's manual.

In terms of towing at the max possible weight as opposed to the variable number, I never did find any engineering explanation why a taller rear gear ratio and bigger motor allows for more gross weight on the chasis.

Am not seeing any comment in the signature about tranny work. From my limited knowledge, there are a few OE things that might need correction. But then again, with the HD platform, perhaps the truck already has them?

 

[schiker]

Tough question it can't be answered with a specific weight really IMO. The speed you want to tow, route, traffic, how confident you want to feel etc etc. Then the trailer is too big of variable. GM was conservative for several reasons. I would tow up to axle limits, with good load balancing/ appropriate tongue/pin weight (without getting out of scale with trailer). Its how the truck feels to you personally with safety in mind.

 

[schiker]

Just my opinion with single wheel truck I will not approach limits with a tag along trailer but will with a gooseneck your milage will vary.

 

[WarWagon]

Tough question it can't be answered with a specific weight really IMO. The speed you want to tow, route, traffic, how confident you want to feel etc etc. Then the trailer is too big of variable. GM was conservative for several reasons. I would tow up to axle limits, with good load balancing/ appropriate tongue/pin weight (without getting out of scale with trailer). Its how the truck feels to you personally with safety in mind.

Don't be voiding your Insurance Coverage via Arizona's "Stupid Law" that allows insurance companies to walk away from "gross overloads". Intended to increase seatbelt use and keep people driving into flooded washes... So take the GCVWR seriously, weigh the rig at a CAT truckstop scale, and do not overload any rating: on any axle, tire, or vehicle/trailer. It isn't relevant what the vehicle can and can't really do it is Trumped by the sticker on the door, owner's manual, or GM published numbers. Sure it only matters when you get unlucky, but, then it really matters and there is no undoing it.

"Not For Hire" on the doors can be helpful if you are truly not.

This said the 6.5 benefits from a better turbo and other mods to just tow it's ratings. Lower ECT, better MPG, as well as more power are available from just a bigger turbo.

 

[Will L.]

@WarWagon - I kinda was expecting a bigger answer from you on this one. You mean you never overloaded yours?

wait, dont answer that- somebody with badge might be reading- haha.

@Tovar - proper air coming in through a good turbo and breath out big enough exhaust. Then being able to keep it cool all on an HD platform means you can tow more than your stickers say physically. But I will agree with your Arizona neighbor, johnnie law wont be friendly when you exceed the sticker.

In any event, brakes would be my next concearn.

 

[Tovar]

So, 10,000lbs. 15,000lbs. would be to much....? My gears are 4.63. I have done nothing to the transmission as of yet. I plan on a different torque converter, larger pan, and trans. temp gauge. Where can I find the GCVWR for this truck (the truck itself weights 15,000Lbs.).

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Brakes are not a big concern on a 3500 hd as they came with 4 wheel 2 piston disc brakes factory(and the p30 master, hydro boost, and the high output brake proportioning valve). The frame can handle some serious weight to as many had a 13,500 gvwr, and several variants were even higher. Would also help to onow which gears and tires you have. I believe the 19.5" rims were pretty much standard on them, and most got 4.56 or 4.88 gears, but you could get a 5.46 in some of them. Speed can be an issue though with the high gears as even in od, you can be turning some pretty high rpm's. Just keep in mind that truck is rated to handle alot more weight than most any other 6.5l truck as the gmt-455 platform was a beast of a chassis.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

So, 10,000lbs. 15,000lbs. would be to much....? My gears are 4.63. I have done nothing to the transmission as of yet. I plan on a different torque converter, larger pan, and trans. temp gauge. Where can I find the GCVWR for this truck (the truck itself weights 15,000Lbs.).

15k is your gvwr, not how much it weighs. It probably weighs in the 9-10k pound range if you take it across a scale. Most of those trucks were pretty well limited by the 26k lb gcvwr unless you had a higher class cdl in which case it was certified to whatever you certified it to(commercial trucks are rated differently than regular consumers).

 

[Tovar]

Thanks for clearing up some of my confusion Thefermanator. Theoretically, a 15,000lbs. fifth wheel is within the realm of possibility. But, the rating is 10,000lbs., and the above responses about law issues are worth heading. I've got a triple axle Eclipse Attitude toy hauler, but to avoid hassles, I'll sell it off and get something 10,000lbs or less. To all responses, thanks for the advise.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Your truck doesn't fall under the 10k pound max towing like the others do. The 3500hd really is a medium duty truck whereas the regular 3500 dually is a light duty truck. Forget what applies to regular gmt-400 trucks as the gmt-455 was in a different class.

 

[WarWagon]

So, 10,000lbs. 15,000lbs. would be to much....? My gears are 4.63. I have done nothing to the transmission as of yet. I plan on a different torque converter, larger pan, and trans. temp gauge. Where can I find the GCVWR for this truck (the truck itself weights 15,000Lbs.).

I assume you are referring to the GVWR, Gross Vehicle Weight RATING on the door at 15,000 or did you get a scale ticket?

The Door Sticker on 1993 Patch a 3/4t, 2500, is 8600 LBS GVWR. It scales at 6280 LBS at the dump. I get 2320 LBS to toss in the truck to haul to the dump making sure I don't go over the front/rear axle load number. This rear axle rating in important to me because it is close to what the tires (are rated at) will take on a hot Phoenix summer day at speed. Trailer weight added to the truck is the same consideration of axle and GVWR limits with a max GCWR.

The example below gives 240 LBS left on the rear tires (tire rating) that I can't use:

My 2003 Dodge 1 ton, 3500 is 9900 LB GVWR. 20,000 GCWR is not on the door but looked up here. (26,001+ LBS GCWR Requires a CDL.) Both pickups are Single rear wheel. The Dodge weights configured as worst case as it's going to go down the road: Full tank of fuel, dogs, purse, etc. The GAWR front is 4750 LBS and rear GAWR 6150 LBS. Tires are rated at 3195 LBS each as they are 17" and in the single configuration. (240 LBS more than the axle number.) Note: Dual rear wheels are NOT rating x 4, but, the lower dual rating x 4 tires. (19.5" tires can be rated to carry 4000 or more each.)

What -- Limit -- Weight -- Remaining (LBS)
GVWR -- 9900 -- 7240 -- 2840
Axel1 -- 4750 -- 4440 -- 310
Axel2 -- 6150 -- 2980 -- 3170

So the above means the Dodge truck can have an additional 2840 LBS tossed on it as long as I don't overload any single axle. The front axle doesn't have much room limiting me to a light front bumper, front bumper genset hitch, limit luggage on the roof, and no weight ability for dead deer or dead elk strapped down to the hood... They have to go in the back. The Heavy Cast Iron Cummins and Cast Iron NV5600 eat a lot of the front axle rating. A weight distribution hitch is a serious concern as it transfers weight to the front axle. I can not use all of the 3170 LBS from the rear axle rating because I am limited to whats left of the 9900 GVWR of 2840 LBS.

Now lets throw a 5th wheel on the Dodge. The scale weight indicates perhaps my fat butt gained weight or someone needs to dump some bricks or whatever out of a purse. 80 LBS heavier on the front and 40 LBS heavier on the rear. Likely different cargo and scale accuracy as it is 6 months later? Note to self: since last scale ticket there was more engine work and a sway bar added to the rear.

We start out with a re-weigh and discover work to truck has changed something! Tail gate removed for the following.

What -- Limit -- Weight -- Remaining (LBS)
GVWR -- 9900 -- 7540 -- 2360
Axel1 -- 4750 -- 4520 -- 230
Axel2 -- 6150 -- 3020 -- 3130


With a 5th wheel:

What -- Limit -- Weight -- Remaining (LBS)
GVWR -- 9900 -- 9300 -- 600
Axel1 -- 4750 -- 4540 -- 210
Axel2 -- 6150 -- 4760 -- 1390
Axel3 -- 13,000 -- 7780* -- 3460*
GCWR -- 20,000 -- 17,080 -- 2920
* 5th wheel is leaning on the truck adding 1760 LBS, a comfortable 15-20% tongue weight. True Trailer total weight is 9540 LBS, Trailer GVWR is 13,000 LBS, leaving 3460LBS for 5th wheel trailer cargo, but, I can't use all of it due to GCWR limits. Total 17,080 LBS -- 2920 LBS remaining on 20,000 LBS GCWR that can have 600 LBS of it put on the truck depending on how much the additional weight in the 5th wheel trailer adds to the tongue weight. Weight and balance of cargo in the 5th wheel will be important.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

He has a 3500hd, you need to be comparing it to an f-450 or a kodiak 4500 as far as weight rating goes.

 

[WarWagon]

He has a 3500hd, you need to be comparing it to an f-450 or a kodiak 4500 as far as weight rating goes.

Absolutely! The above is just an example of numbers I had laying around, after all, Dodge numbers on a 6.5 GM forum...

 

[GM Guy]

If you are concerned about its ability to tow your above mentioned toyhauler, I would say it would.

Our most memorable haul with the HD was 22,000 total combo weight over some nasty mountain passes out west, and locally we were well north of 30,000 lbs, if I had it figured correctly about 36,000 lbs. no trailer brakes, and was pulling a farm implement behind the trailer.

The C3500HD chassis cab is a very capable platform. with your ATT I would not hesitate to pull that toyhauler.

Now if you wanted to haul commerically and had variable weights, I would sand bag it a little, especially with the automatic.

If hauling commercial, I would consider an Allison swap.


Your only remaining weak links IMO are the transmission and rear end.

The Dana 80 rear end suffers from a slight design flaw that results in hard loading of the differential carrier bearings, causing rapid oil breakdown. OEM recommendations were 3,000 mile oil changes with 80w90 conventional and 30,000 miles with 75w140 full synthetic. it has the same diff cover pattern as the Dodge spec Dana 80, so you can order a deep finned aluminum diff cover for a 97 dodge 3500 and it should bolt up fine.

The auto, others will know more. I dont know squat since I hate them in my pulling pickups. I am pretty sure the HDs got a bigger transmission oil cooler than non-HD models, which helps alot. I am sure you can mount a deep finned aluminum pan to one as well.

 

[GM Guy]

Brakes are not a big concern on a 3500 hd as they came with 4 wheel 2 piston disc brakes factory(and the p30 master, hydro boost, and the high output brake proportioning valve). The frame can handle some serious weight to as many had a 13,500 gvwr, and several variants were even higher. Would also help to onow which gears and tires you have. I believe the 19.5" rims were pretty much standard on them, and most got 4.56 or 4.88 gears, but you could get a 5.46 in some of them. Speed can be an issue though with the high gears as even in od, you can be turning some pretty high rpm's. Just keep in mind that truck is rated to handle alot more weight than most any other 6.5l truck as the gmt-455 platform was a beast of a chassis.

To my knowledge every last one was 15,000 lbs GVWR.

The only ratios from the factory (special order could have gotten something else maybe?) were 4.63 and 5.13

They only came with 225/70R19.5 rubber.

I agree with everything else though, especially the last sentence!