The End of an Era

[Dunedain15]

Gentlemen, I sold my 6.5L last week. I'll remove it from my signature soon, but I can't bring myself to do it just yet. It's a long story about why I sold it, but it turned out good in the end. Now I'm looking into a gas Burb. I'm going to look at this one tomorrow evening. What should I be looking for under the hood? I'm familiar with the body, but the 5.7L Vortec is new to me. I've seen a lot of Vortecs for sale that have 225k+ on them, so the high mileage doesn't bother me unless I see something you guys tell me to look for. Thanks, Guys.

 

[Will L.]

You don't delete it from sig, just add "sold:" before it. That way after a year and a half when you miss the clatter of a diesel you come back to the signature section to add the future diesel.

The 5.7 is a good engine, I prefer the 6.0 (which is in my '01 2500 burb 4x4). If your easy on the go pedal all the time a 5.7 can get a little bit better mpg. If you are at or near the front of the pack from the stoplight, OR you load down the rig with passengers and gear OR you tow anything at all: the 6.0 will get better mpg. Only talking around 2 mpg difference, but if that counts to you... Both are very abuseable engines.

What's the "sell story" of the 6.5?

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

The 5.7L VORTEC is a good engine. Plan on putting the updated injectors in it as the old poppet ones suck, and tend to fail around 150-175K miles causing hard starts when hot, poor idle, O2 codes, and all other kinds of driveability issues. The rest of the truck is pretty similiar to what you had. Plan on rebuilding the front end if it hasn't been done, and it may be due for cats as they seem to go around 200K miles. Since it's past 125K miles, the engine is probably good. The distributor gear is a weak area, as well as intake gaskets(the VICTOR REINZ as of about 2012 fixes the issue, but gaskets before then fail quite often).

 

[Dunedain15]

You don't delete it from sig, just add "sold:" before it. That way after a year and a half when you miss the clatter of a diesel you come back to the signature section to add the future diesel.

The 5.7 is a good engine, I prefer the 6.0 (which is in my '01 2500 burb 4x4). If your easy on the go pedal all the time a 5.7 can get a little bit better mpg. If you are at or near the front of the pack from the stoplight, OR you load down the rig with passengers and gear OR you tow anything at all: the 6.0 will get better mpg. Only talking around 2 mpg difference, but if that counts to you... Both are very abuseable engines.

What's the "sell story" of the 6.5?

Thanks for the info, Will. 6.0's are hard to come by. Probably just gonna go with the 5.7 and play around with it.

I don't know how spiritual everyone around here is, but the sell story is part of a two-pronged journey I've been on regarding: 1. My needs and a willingness to trust the Almighty for provision. 2. Physical things I cling to. A need for cash arose, and I knew the provision would come, but I felt like I was supposed to offer the Burb as a way for that provision. I set a price, $6000, and refused to take less. Last Wednesday, somebody drove up from Gettysburg with $6000 in hand and drove away with her. It's been a good learning experience. I'm sad she's gone, but I'm glad for the lesson. Plus, I'm looking forward to tinkering with a 5.7.

 

[Dunedain15]

The 5.7L VORTEC is a good engine. Plan on putting the updated injectors in it as the old poppet ones suck, and tend to fail around 150-175K miles causing hard starts when hot, poor idle, O2 codes, and all other kinds of driveability issues. The rest of the truck is pretty similiar to what you had. Plan on rebuilding the front end if it hasn't been done, and it may be due for cats as they seem to go around 200K miles. Since it's past 125K miles, the engine is probably good. The distributor gear is a weak area, as well as intake gaskets(the VICTOR REINZ as of about 2012 fixes the issue, but gaskets before then fail quite often).

Thanks for the info, Ferm. Question: Is there a quick way to tell if the conversion to the updated injectors has been done already? Even if I pay the full price they're asking, I'll have about $1500 to play with after the purchase. My first investments were gonna be those injectors and headers/exhaust. At this juncture, I have another question. Leroy really touts the advantages of dual-fueling with propane. Anybody converted a 5.7L Vortec to a carb? The kit from Edelbrock is only about $600, and it includes the intake manifold, gaskets, carb, and hardware. From there, when the money presents itself, I could convert to dual-fuel easily. Just wanted to see if anybody here had experience with a carb on a Vortec. Thanks again for all your input, Guys.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

You culd convert to carb, but it would cost you ALOT of money to get it all to work. You might be able to see the injectors through the throttle body to see if it is just poppet lines, or if there are wires running out to the inejctors along the lines. To ge the trans to work you would need a trans controller, so throw another $400 onto the cost for a stand alone TCM. I think the 98 transfer case will work without the PCM, but not 100% certain, so you may be looking at a 241 transfer case conversion and adding in a floor shifter. In all honesty start off by making sure the 5.7L is up to par. Make sure the cats and exhaust are good, the injectors aren't leaking down, the distributor gear is still good and not worn, and just go over the truck. I wouldn't go putting headers on it until your ready to do some other upgrades to justify them.

 

[WarWagon]

There is no replacement for displacement. You should hold out for the bigger engine esp. if you want to hop it up with headers etc. The year you are looking at 1998 should be the 7.4L, 454. With some work they run well. They are dogs from the factory.

If I bought the one you are looking at the 1st mod I would make is to drop in a 7.4L, 454. The 454 doesn't have to work so hard like the 350, 5.7, does to move the heavy beast around.


The second mod would be to cut the hood to clear the belt drive supercharger. No kill like overkill. And it would help getting over the 6.5L torque you will be missing.

No, I wouldn't be looking at a 1/2 ton with the undersized brakes GM put on them.

 

[Dunedain15]

There is no replacement for displacement. You should hold out for the bigger engine esp. if you want to hop it up with headers etc. The year you are looking at 1998 should be the 7.4L, 454. With some work they run well. They are dogs from the factory.

If I bought the one you are looking at the 1st mod I would make is to drop in a 7.4L, 454. The 454 doesn't have to work so hard like the 350, 5.7, does to move the heavy beast around.


The second mod would be to cut the hood to clear the belt drive supercharger. No kill like overkill. And it would help getting over the 6.5L torque you will be missing.

No, I wouldn't be looking at a 1/2 ton with the undersized brakes GM put on them.

Thanks, WW. My concern with the 454 was mileage. I'm not hauling a bunch of stuff around. Just the family 95% of the time. Thoughts on that end of things?

 

[Dunedain15]

Also, at the risk of being banned for all eternity, I do have this Excursion available to me. Thoughts on this vs the 5.7L?

 

[WarWagon]

Also, at the risk of being banned for all eternity, I do have this Excursion available to me. Thoughts on this vs the 5.7L?

If you are *really* gentle on the 454 they can get slightly better MPG over a 350. When you need to pass MPG goes out the window. Again a 454 needs some mods like an exhaust to really run good.

Parts store employee I see often just went the V-10 route. It promptly put a couple of rods through the block (while towing) and now the extended warranty is replacing the engine. Gutless gas hogs when they run and spit spark plugs out with cyl head threads still attached often.

 

[Dunedain15]

If you are *really* gentle on the 454 they can get slightly better MPG over a 350. When you need to pass MPG goes out the window. Again a 454 needs some mods like an exhaust to really run good.

Parts store employee I see often just went the V-10 route. It promptly put a couple of rods through the block (while towing) and now the extended warranty is replacing the engine. Gutless gas hogs when they run and spit spark plugs out with cyl head threads still attached often.

I kinda figured that'd be the response I'd get. So, you'd say I should go for this one over the orginal one I linked to. Now, let's compare the 7.4L to the 6.0L. Any thoughts on that?

 

[WarWagon]

I kinda figured that'd be the response I'd get. So, you'd say I should go for this one over the orginal one I linked to. Now, let's compare the 7.4L to the 6.0L. Any thoughts on that?

The 6.0, 364, is a newer small block found in newer body Suburbans - the ones with 4 wheel disc brakes. It is like the 5.7L, 350, is to the 7.4L, 454. The big block 2500 option is a 8.1L, 496. The 6.0 looks to be offered as a special 2006 edition in the 1500. 6.0 was standard in the 2500's and they ran well (quick) in pickups. Otherwise you get the 5.3L in the newer 1/2 ton rigs. You will notice the 5.3's lack of torque vs. the 6.5TD. (Well at least I do over the hot rod 6.5L I built...)

A Small Block in a 3/4 ton is overworking the engine IMO.

 

[Dunedain15]

So, that 350 I originally posted about turned out to be crap underneath. Found this 454 about ten minutes from my house. Any thoughts on what that damp area on the intake in the last picture would be? Underneath looks good, but the place was closed by the time I got there. Gonna go drive it tomorrow.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

You couldn't pay me enough to have a truck with a 454 in it. Single digit fuel milage is the norm with them. If your GENTLE on the throttle you can see 12 or so out of one, but 8-10 with modern ethanol blends is the norm anymore. A good running 5.7L VORTEC with 3.42's or 3.73 gears will get 15-17 all day long on the highway. As far as towing, my neighbor tows his 27 foot SEARAY cabin cruiser with a 98 K1500 with a little ole 5.7L 350 under the hood. I would go with the EXCURSION ANYDAY of the week over the 454 SUBURBAN. IF you go with an EXCURSION, keep in mind the 4X4's were known to have a PISS PORR ride at stock ride height because FORD tried to keep them lowered down for soccer moms which resulted in not enough suspension travel. If you want one to ride nice, you need to swap in F-250 springs and a good set of shocks from a truck. Also keep in mind if you ever want to put it in a garage, the EXCURSION doesn't fit in alot of garages. I believe the 4X4 needs a shade over 7 feet of height, and over 8 foot of width to get it in without folding the mirrors in. Also keep in mind the length is longer than most garages and needs a bit over 20 feet IIRC. The V-10 engine is a good engine, but the spark plug issues with FORDS scares me away from even touching one for somebody.

Between the 454 BURB and a V-10 EXCURSION, I would go with the EX all day long. Twice the truck, a true HD suspension, AND MUCH better brakes. If I was people hauling, a 1500 BURB is my choice hands down ALL DAY LONG! And I would hold out for a 2000 or newer with the LS series of engine in it. The 5.3L is leaps and bounds ahead of the 5.7L VORTEC in technology, HP, and milage.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

I kinda figured that'd be the response I'd get. So, you'd say I should go for this one over the orginal one I linked to. Now, let's compare the 7.4L to the 6.0L. Any thoughts on that?

The 6.0L was the replacement for the 454. The 4.8L replaced the 5.0L, the 5.3L replaced the 5.7L, and the 6.0L replaced the 454. GM did come out with the 8.1L engine, but it was intended solely for the newer heavier duty line of HD trucks. Hence why the 2500 in 99-00(new body style) only had the 6.0L as an engine option. The 4.8L, 5.3L, and 6.0L are based on GM's newer LS engine platform stemming back to 96 or so when GM came out with a redeign of the age old small block for the new CORVETTE(and they're short lived initial attempt the LT1/LT4 engines starting in 92). The ground work for the LS engines stems back to the mid 90's with GM's new cylinder head design for NASCAR, the SB2.2 cylinder heads.

 

[Dunedain15]

You couldn't pay me enough to have a truck with a 454 in it. Single digit fuel milage is the norm with them. If your GENTLE on the throttle you can see 12 or so out of one, but 8-10 with modern ethanol blends is the norm anymore. A good running 5.7L VORTEC with 3.42's or 3.73 gears will get 15-17 all day long on the highway. As far as towing, my neighbor tows his 27 foot SEARAY cabin cruiser with a 98 K1500 with a little ole 5.7L 350 under the hood. I would go with the EXCURSION ANYDAY of the week over the 454 SUBURBAN. IF you go with an EXCURSION, keep in mind the 4X4's were known to have a PISS PORR ride at stock ride height because FORD tried to keep them lowered down for soccer moms which resulted in not enough suspension travel. If you want one to ride nice, you need to swap in F-250 springs and a good set of shocks from a truck. Also keep in mind if you ever want to put it in a garage, the EXCURSION doesn't fit in alot of garages. I believe the 4X4 needs a shade over 7 feet of height, and over 8 foot of width to get it in without folding the mirrors in. Also keep in mind the length is longer than most garages and needs a bit over 20 feet IIRC. The V-10 engine is a good engine, but the spark plug issues with FORDS scares me away from even touching one for somebody.

Between the 454 BURB and a V-10 EXCURSION, I would go with the EX all day long. Twice the truck, a true HD suspension, AND MUCH better brakes. If I was people hauling, a 1500 BURB is my choice hands down ALL DAY LONG! And I would hold out for a 2000 or newer with the LS series of engine in it. The 5.3L is leaps and bounds ahead of the 5.7L VORTEC in technology, HP, and milage.

Ferm, I really appreciate your input. I remember your mentioning something about piston slap in the 5.3's. Is that something to consider?

 

[WarWagon]

Ferm, I really appreciate your input. I remember your mentioning something about piston slap in the 5.3's. Is that something to consider?

It's caused by the short skirt pistons they used and production tolerances. Simply put the engines will start to tick when the pistons cool down like when you idle in a drive through or on a cold start. They go a long distance while doing this. Lots of GM engines have this annoyance. Overall a decent engine. The last year for a true throttle cable was 2002 on them. The computer decides when and how to open the throttle on later years.

Maybe I am off base with the working things too hard perspective. After all this is a family hauler the OP asks of. I never see this as 'family hauler' one day winds up towing something out of the blue, always. Personally a 'small block' 6.0L to replace a big block. yuck... I am one reason/use/whatever GM made the 8.1L and the V-10's came on the market. The grades in The West putting a serious hurt on almost any vehicle unloaded would be the main reason of course.

I have towed with a 4.3 TBI and Vortec, 350 TBI, the 2010 4.7 Dodge Ram, 454, 6.2 NA and turbo, 6.5 TD, 6.6, LS2 Trailblazer SS, 5.9 Cummins, and a few others I forget... Although your neighbor can do it, it isn't as fun as a big block or properly modded turbo diesel. There is a fine line between 'I don't know the trailer is back there' and a workout with an undersized high RPM small block gas engine. Watching gauges, hoping nothing blows up at high RPM on the grade. Like converter lockup clutches slipping at high RPM, belts flying off the engine, fan clutches slipping and failing at the high RPM trying to keep the fan locked in...

Low RPM torque is what a big block is all about and why it doesn't have to wind up like the newer GM small blocks have to to get or stay moving.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Ferm, I really appreciate your input. I remember your mentioning something about piston slap in the 5.3's. Is that something to consider?

It's mostly a cold weather problem, and tends to go away after a minute of run time. The LS based engines use a short piston skirt design to minimize rotating mass to help them to be able to live while being revved to 6K RPM's. Many an engine has done it from day one, and still going after 300K miles. Only real serious issues is intake gaskets up north where it gets cold, fuel pressure regulators on earlier engines, oil pan gaskets can deteriate after 12 years or so and cause a drop in oil pressure, and I've had to do a few sets of injectors. All and all the LS engines are about as good as it gets, and is why many are laughing at swapping in a small block chevy and going for the LS engine.

 

[trouttrooper]

Main thing I don't like when towing with a small block in the west here is having to listen to the engine screaming all the time because that's where the torque happens. It doesn't take much of a hill before they have to downshift. I don't really worry/care about the engine being able to handle it. My big block will hum quietly along and not sound so annoying in the cab.

 

[Dunedain15]

Yeah, I'm not towing anything 98% of the time. When I do, it's light. Ferm, I appreciate all your input, and I think I'm gonna try to get my hands on a 5.3L.

WarWagon, I hear what you're saying about power. I appreciate the fact that you're trying to ease me down from the diesel. Thanks for all your advice. If it comes time for me to start pulling, I'll be back asking for more.