Any thoughts on running a BD Super "B" turbo? I have a Super "B" from one of my Dodge trucks that has very low miles on it. It has a smaller compressor than a HE351 but it is more efficient. And the turbine housing is larger than the HE351 from a 04.5-07 HO Cummins. I think it is a step up from the HX35 maybe even up from the 40?
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Super "B" turbo
- Thread starter GJF
- Start date
- Staff
- #2
The specs I could find says the exhaust housing is roughly 14CM with a 58MM wheel. The intake is a 65MM wheel and is rated at 870 CFM at 45 PSI with a 80 A/R. So it appears to have a slightly smaller exhaust housing than the HX40 that most are running, but bigger than the HX35's 12. The intake side though seems to be larger than that of the HX40, and it is rated at a good bit higher flow than the HX40. It is supposed to light off pretty quickly and boost up high, so I don't know how that will work on the 6.5. I found a few posts from peopel at BD, and they seem to reccomend running them at 40-45 PSI on teh CUMMINS, don't know how this will work on a 6.5 running 15-20 PSI of boost.
Compression ratio is lower on the smaller displacement engine it came off of.
I suggest head studs and an intercooler when you are playing with it esp. for higher boost numbers. That turbo will be taking you to higher boost numbers for sure.
Some take the 6.5 to higher boost territory. I have run the HX40II to 23 PSI and the ATT to 18 PSI.
Personally I think a HX40 lacks top end in trade for lighting slightly lower RPM than the A Team. Even though I have higher boost with the HX40II flat out is simply isn't pulling as hard as the ATT does in higher the RPM to redline. Not sure if the turbo is reaching it's RPM limit or the back pressure is too high vs. the ATT. Popping the waste gate open gets tricky as the turbo can loose boost if it isn't perfectly adjusted. it's like hitting a brick wall with lots of black smoke when that happens...
I suggest head studs and an intercooler when you are playing with it esp. for higher boost numbers. That turbo will be taking you to higher boost numbers for sure.
Some take the 6.5 to higher boost territory. I have run the HX40II to 23 PSI and the ATT to 18 PSI.
Personally I think a HX40 lacks top end in trade for lighting slightly lower RPM than the A Team. Even though I have higher boost with the HX40II flat out is simply isn't pulling as hard as the ATT does in higher the RPM to redline. Not sure if the turbo is reaching it's RPM limit or the back pressure is too high vs. the ATT. Popping the waste gate open gets tricky as the turbo can loose boost if it isn't perfectly adjusted. it's like hitting a brick wall with lots of black smoke when that happens...
Nothing to add, just wanted to say you got a nice looking truck in your avatar. Looks like the same wheels I had.
THEFERMANATOR : I'm thinking it will work well even at 18-20psi. I definitely won't try to push 40+
WarWagon : I think this turbo would be maybe in between the HX40 and the ATT. I ran this on my Dodge at 40psi. Of course the cummins is a different beast al together. I tried a custom Garrett with the same spec of a ATT. it had great top end even running a Max E torque towing program. But smoked a lot til the turbo was lit. I'm sure it would have been better with the KOJO tune for the ATT. I just had Bill re flash my PCM to the latest and greatest #7151 tune. Hopefully it will work well with the Super "B".
burning oil :Thanks!!! I have round hole 22's on the truck now. the Freightliners had some machining defects. So I bought a set of new round holes and will decide down the road what custom cut I will have done to them.
WarWagon : I think this turbo would be maybe in between the HX40 and the ATT. I ran this on my Dodge at 40psi. Of course the cummins is a different beast al together. I tried a custom Garrett with the same spec of a ATT. it had great top end even running a Max E torque towing program. But smoked a lot til the turbo was lit. I'm sure it would have been better with the KOJO tune for the ATT. I just had Bill re flash my PCM to the latest and greatest #7151 tune. Hopefully it will work well with the Super "B".
burning oil :Thanks!!! I have round hole 22's on the truck now. the Freightliners had some machining defects. So I bought a set of new round holes and will decide down the road what custom cut I will have done to them.
- Staff
- #6
Just be careful setting the boost up when you have a turbo with the capability of hitting that much boost as quickly as that one is said to do it. Should spool up nice and quick, and hold some boost.
Jorge6.5
Well-Known Member
I know the turbo on my dads 06 cummins has a very small turbine housing like 9cm. Is your b turbo anything like that? Won't the back pressure be too much? Is the reason it works good on a cummins is because of the lower compression and stronger design of the motor?
Jorge6-5: the 04.5-07 HO Cummins uses a Holset HE351. It has a small turbine section and a larger compressor section than the Super "B". The compressor section of the Super "B", although smaller in dimensions, it is suppose to be more efficient than the larger Stock Holset. The larger turbine section on the Super "B", doesn't cause back pressure like the factory HE351. This is why it is a a great mild performance turbo for the HO Cummins. It is also the primary turbo used on BD's towing compounds. But with compounds the boost pressure is set at 50-60 psi, and we can't realistically run that much boost on a 6.5. But using it on the 6.5 in a single application, it should work fairly well.
- Staff
- #9
It's also hard to compare a VGT turbo to that of a wastegated fixed turbo.
turbonator
Member
i believe the one he is talking about is the he351 cw waste gated, but i could be wrong....
Turbine Doc
Just Another Diesel Guy
Go for it :thumbsup: it looks like you have a good understanding on risks and have been down this road before, so with that give it a shot ATT by paper was not supposed to work either, even Bill not a fan of it but IMO he/it did not get a fair shake out, and much of Bills mind made up by experience/math from the Peninsular big turbo best suited for fixed speed 6.5s. He had my original in his hands for 2 almost years and it never got installed due to that test/project conflicting with the LSR Bonneville racer test/build, then next one he had was fed parts it wasn't supposed to digest and had to be repaired, then same truck had injector (bad propane install) issues.
All turbos have to be program tuned to the engine installation to get most out of them, how much time a programmer has to devote to something he's not really into or has an alternative turbo to promote like some of the HX promoters do can impact the time spent to get the best program for given choice.
For me the MaxE did ok, but not best; even the factory tune worked with it but did not deliver best from the turbo, only time I ever had smoke issues with those on my setup was when romping hard accelerating. I think I got Bill tweaked at me at some point because once I got a tune that had "oh you want more fuel on bottom I'll give you more fuel" written all over it
that tune blew smoke across 4 lanes of traffic with more than slight pressure to the APP I wound up having 2 PCMs running and test going back & forth about many times over until we have what is out there now.
Bill has a program now that works very well with ATT but needs some tweaks still IMO (he has one of my PCMs now waiting for next step after I finish my project engine build) programming takes time so I understand frustration that ATT & other turbos caused/s Bill and to only recommend the GM turbo where he has tons of time energy/effort for that configuration, he has a business built around that, departing from that cuts into the bottom line if I was in that game I'd probably do the same.
Super B mite just work well so long as you stay conservative on top end, I started looking at ATS someting like the Aurora for the 6.5 tuned down but too expensive to "wildcat experiment" that and I did not have a uesd but good one to play with.
Are you close to Bill I expect that as a "bolt on" the super B will need some tweaks to the program to get most out of it, long distance tuning is a long and at times disappointing process, if you do have to do it long distance make sure changes tune to tune don't get lost in process, a few times we went steps fwd & steps backward, have a 2nd PCM handy if you aren't close, if not you'll need to get one so you aren't without the truck if tune you get doesn't work way you want it to.
All turbos have to be program tuned to the engine installation to get most out of them, how much time a programmer has to devote to something he's not really into or has an alternative turbo to promote like some of the HX promoters do can impact the time spent to get the best program for given choice.
For me the MaxE did ok, but not best; even the factory tune worked with it but did not deliver best from the turbo, only time I ever had smoke issues with those on my setup was when romping hard accelerating. I think I got Bill tweaked at me at some point because once I got a tune that had "oh you want more fuel on bottom I'll give you more fuel" written all over it
that tune blew smoke across 4 lanes of traffic with more than slight pressure to the APP I wound up having 2 PCMs running and test going back & forth about many times over until we have what is out there now.Bill has a program now that works very well with ATT but needs some tweaks still IMO (he has one of my PCMs now waiting for next step after I finish my project engine build) programming takes time so I understand frustration that ATT & other turbos caused/s Bill and to only recommend the GM turbo where he has tons of time energy/effort for that configuration, he has a business built around that, departing from that cuts into the bottom line if I was in that game I'd probably do the same.
Super B mite just work well so long as you stay conservative on top end, I started looking at ATS someting like the Aurora for the 6.5 tuned down but too expensive to "wildcat experiment" that and I did not have a uesd but good one to play with.
Are you close to Bill I expect that as a "bolt on" the super B will need some tweaks to the program to get most out of it, long distance tuning is a long and at times disappointing process, if you do have to do it long distance make sure changes tune to tune don't get lost in process, a few times we went steps fwd & steps backward, have a 2nd PCM handy if you aren't close, if not you'll need to get one so you aren't without the truck if tune you get doesn't work way you want it to.
turbonator
Member
actually the 351cw uses the small exhaust housing like the hy35, 9cm2, and started casting the intercooler elbow right on to the compressor cover, thus eliminating the problematic and leaky extra elbow connection... this turbo (351cw) is the HO for the cummins, instant spool-up, and 1:2 drive pressure ratio, but not a real concern for a cummins, they can run like that because of the industrial/genset roots it has... we are subscribed, as i have been waiting for someone to try a super B, we would have already if it was not priced more expensive than most 6.5l trucks are worth....LOL:thumbsup:
Jorge6.5
Well-Known Member
I am talking about the he351cw turbo. Afaik it's not vgt. Iirc the vgt didn't start till '08 when the 6.7 cummins came out.
On the he351cw there is small electrical unit that works with the waste gate but not vgt.
To the op, be sure to hook up a drive pressure gauge when you swap to the b turbo.
On the he351cw there is small electrical unit that works with the waste gate but not vgt.
To the op, be sure to hook up a drive pressure gauge when you swap to the b turbo.
- Staff
- #16
I was wrong, I thought all the HE351's were VGT. I just checked and seen they did also build the HE351 as a wastegated model as well.