Well I do it with dial indicators to be as exact as possible but getting close may be good enough.
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Rebuild about done
- Thread starter Rodd
- Start date
DieselAmateur
She ain't revved 'til the rods are thrown...
Two questions-
Where does one get offset keys?
And how did the fellow up north get his hands on a new P400? lol
Where does one get offset keys?
And how did the fellow up north get his hands on a new P400? lol
Will L.
Well-Known Member
All the hot rod part suppliers like summit, jegs, fast eddy etc all sell the offset keys.
Many people bought the p400 and just sat on them waiting to do their upcoming projects.
Btw- Chris is right- dial indicator is the right way. I am just thinking of what to do with an already assembled engine to verify if it is way out. And a tooth off is WAY out.
Long arm indicator could reach the lifter rim with pushrod removed. Otherwise pull that lifter set. Starett sells a nice 15 piece set that has screw together arms reaching almost 2’.
Many people bought the p400 and just sat on them waiting to do their upcoming projects.
Btw- Chris is right- dial indicator is the right way. I am just thinking of what to do with an already assembled engine to verify if it is way out. And a tooth off is WAY out.
Long arm indicator could reach the lifter rim with pushrod removed. Otherwise pull that lifter set. Starett sells a nice 15 piece set that has screw together arms reaching almost 2’.
Offset keys are the same as SBC or BBC keys . To really do this right , follow what Chris suggested . If that's not an option , I suppose you could remove an injector and use a small screwdriver to get close to TDC . After that you need a degree wheel and the cam specs .
Degreeing a cam, or checking the cam or gear install isn't a beginner thing that is easy to do and get right. I always check myself, start from scratch more than I like, but it pays to be sure while it's on a engine stand.
In your case check the IP gear first, maybe you get lucky.
In your case check the IP gear first, maybe you get lucky.
Rodd
Recruit
How would I know if the IP gear is off?
Rodd
Recruit
It's over my head.
dbrannon79
I'm getting there!
The only way to know is to tear down the front of the engine like your going in to replace the timing chain, then line up the timing gears with the engine on TDC. once the timing gears are lined up and on TDC, look for the dot on the IP gear and see where it's at.
@Twisted Steel Performance you would know more about this, but is it possible to have the lower IP gear (gear bolted onto the upper timing gear) installed where it can also be off? I myself have never gone into an engine this deep, but I would assume it goes onto a keyed slot with only one way to install unless the key is sheared or worse.
@Twisted Steel Performance you would know more about this, but is it possible to have the lower IP gear (gear bolted onto the upper timing gear) installed where it can also be off? I myself have never gone into an engine this deep, but I would assume it goes onto a keyed slot with only one way to install unless the key is sheared or worse.
dieselolds
Well-Known Member
One should always be careful of running an engine with pump timing off by a tooth,etc.I’ve personally seen cylinder heads with melted or deformed precups because of this.I wouldn’t run that engine again until the dots/marks are verified to be right.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Correct. This is extreme hot rod mode where you know it will fail- not if but when.
dieselolds
Well-Known Member
I also came across one 6.5 several years ago with injector lines 2 and 4 crossed over on the injector end.Some guy had the two lines in the wrong place.The injector tips on those two cylinders were practically melted away.It was unbelievable.
MrMarty51
Well-Known Member
I wonder if the engine sounded like it had a miss ?with those two lines crossed.
MrMarty51
Well-Known Member
I just made the purchase of the timing gear set, not planning on installing it any time soon, now I’m almost fearful to do so.
jrsavoie
Recruit
I would definitely check the keyways against the markes on the gears before proceeding, if that works.
Had the money, tell you what I'd do, I'd take everything to Chris and let him work his magic. Or at least to somebody he recommended.
Sadly We didn't win the big lottery or any other. Might have something to do with not buying tickets
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Yup. Just align your gear set to a chain gear set.
If the keyways all line up- and the dots line up= golden.
Have you ever taken and measured how far out of time he stretched chain will allow?
Look up how many degrees people adjust their normal chain system to. And the engine would run perfectly safe without the degreed cam. It just runs better when it is degreed.
You don’t panic just throwing on a new set of chain and gears. You line up the dots and go with it, You don’t rebuild the whole engine.
5 degree offset keyway is all that’s ever needed building a 6.5 because if you would use a 6°, you are better to move a tooth and use a 4° the other direction. The DSG/ Leroy gear set is better because at 7.5° per tooth 4° is the most needed.
A person can take the engine- slide on regular chain/gears (even use old gear and chain before they come off) and get timing marks correct. Then slide on gear drive set and see that the new DOT is correct or incorrect.
If it is incorrect- break out the sharpie, make your dot. Take it off and get the center punch and hammer. PING! Done. Dont let this freak you out and go away from gear drive. Just take the time to verify and you’ll be fine.
Is the absolute best choice to do a complete engine rebuild and correct errors even the factory made? Absolutely. But don’t be afraid to make a simple upgrade.
If the keyways all line up- and the dots line up= golden.
Have you ever taken and measured how far out of time he stretched chain will allow?
Look up how many degrees people adjust their normal chain system to. And the engine would run perfectly safe without the degreed cam. It just runs better when it is degreed.
You don’t panic just throwing on a new set of chain and gears. You line up the dots and go with it, You don’t rebuild the whole engine.
5 degree offset keyway is all that’s ever needed building a 6.5 because if you would use a 6°, you are better to move a tooth and use a 4° the other direction. The DSG/ Leroy gear set is better because at 7.5° per tooth 4° is the most needed.
A person can take the engine- slide on regular chain/gears (even use old gear and chain before they come off) and get timing marks correct. Then slide on gear drive set and see that the new DOT is correct or incorrect.
If it is incorrect- break out the sharpie, make your dot. Take it off and get the center punch and hammer. PING! Done. Dont let this freak you out and go away from gear drive. Just take the time to verify and you’ll be fine.
Is the absolute best choice to do a complete engine rebuild and correct errors even the factory made? Absolutely. But don’t be afraid to make a simple upgrade.
dieselolds
Well-Known Member
To be honest it sounded okay and the engine was pretty steady when looking at it under the hood but when I stood back a second and observed those lines it definitely didn’t look right.It also had two misfire codes for 2 and 4 and the minute I reversed the lines it performed even better but damage to the two injector tips was already done.Pretty much deformed on the ends.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
The two cylinders were almost 180° out. If it had been 2&3 or 4&7 it would have ran smoother, simply pushing fuel out with the exhaust valve open.
look at the degree of rotation mathematically.
You have four strokes:
0°= Compression -upward piston both valves closed
90°= Power -downward compression both valves closed
180°= Exhaust- upward piston exhaust valve open
270° = Intake -downward piston intake valve open exhaust valve closed
So two pushing fuel at 180° out just pushes the fuel out the exhaust.
If the fuel gets there before the power stroke, the fuel cant go out the exhaust, it just gets half burned because the fuel is still there- just not burned perfectly when the fuel gets shoved to compression to be ignited. The fuel is high pressure but has to come out the precup and get circulated around the cylinder before trying to go out the intake valve when it opens. But since there is a turbo creating flow into the cylinder and is pressurized from the turbo- that fuel still stays in the cylinder.
So what you saw was liquid fuel burn rather than well misted / aerated fuel burning.
Horrible flame front.
In gasoline engines the spark plug would ignite the fuel no matter where the piston is. That causes a dramatic lean condition and burns holes in pistons quickly from both not the right amount of oxygen and lower compression.
Diesel doesn’t have a lean condition- the compression is there and what causes the fuel to ignite. But the fuel won’t burn as good so it won’t have the power, will produce more smoke, and burns up whatever metal it is in contact with. Because the flame started on top of the piston- the flame front pushed into the precup and burned out against the injector and glowplug. Probably burned the glowplugs up some as well. But 6 plugs are plenty to start a 6.5, so not noticed.
The customer is lucky it ate his injectors the way it did. What happens sometimes is the injector tip starts spraying a stream through the opening of the precup- and the high pressure cold fuel hits the screaming hot piston top. This causes thermal shock in a tiny area making it weaker, then the pressure simply starts to cut a hole in the piston.
So although it happens a different way than gassers- results can be the same.
look at the degree of rotation mathematically.
You have four strokes:
0°= Compression -upward piston both valves closed
90°= Power -downward compression both valves closed
180°= Exhaust- upward piston exhaust valve open
270° = Intake -downward piston intake valve open exhaust valve closed
So two pushing fuel at 180° out just pushes the fuel out the exhaust.
If the fuel gets there before the power stroke, the fuel cant go out the exhaust, it just gets half burned because the fuel is still there- just not burned perfectly when the fuel gets shoved to compression to be ignited. The fuel is high pressure but has to come out the precup and get circulated around the cylinder before trying to go out the intake valve when it opens. But since there is a turbo creating flow into the cylinder and is pressurized from the turbo- that fuel still stays in the cylinder.
So what you saw was liquid fuel burn rather than well misted / aerated fuel burning.
Horrible flame front.
In gasoline engines the spark plug would ignite the fuel no matter where the piston is. That causes a dramatic lean condition and burns holes in pistons quickly from both not the right amount of oxygen and lower compression.
Diesel doesn’t have a lean condition- the compression is there and what causes the fuel to ignite. But the fuel won’t burn as good so it won’t have the power, will produce more smoke, and burns up whatever metal it is in contact with. Because the flame started on top of the piston- the flame front pushed into the precup and burned out against the injector and glowplug. Probably burned the glowplugs up some as well. But 6 plugs are plenty to start a 6.5, so not noticed.
The customer is lucky it ate his injectors the way it did. What happens sometimes is the injector tip starts spraying a stream through the opening of the precup- and the high pressure cold fuel hits the screaming hot piston top. This causes thermal shock in a tiny area making it weaker, then the pressure simply starts to cut a hole in the piston.
So although it happens a different way than gassers- results can be the same.
dieselolds
Well-Known Member
Your right about the glow plugs as well.Those weren’t in great shape either.The guy had aftermarket China injectors in it with gold numbering on the bodies.Definitely wasn’t Bosch or Delphi so he bought a set of new Bosch India turbo injectors from me which worked out well for him.
Unfortunately though it didn’t end well.It was running fine for a few weeks and then it grenaded.He called me flipping out over the phone cursing and swearing telling me it made a huge bang in the driveway and wouldn’t crank after that.It must of snapped the crank or the webs fell out of it causing the crank to break.I just steered clear and didn’t bother looking into the cause of the failure.That was 6 yrs ago.
Anyway guys sorry bout the derail.
Unfortunately though it didn’t end well.It was running fine for a few weeks and then it grenaded.He called me flipping out over the phone cursing and swearing telling me it made a huge bang in the driveway and wouldn’t crank after that.It must of snapped the crank or the webs fell out of it causing the crank to break.I just steered clear and didn’t bother looking into the cause of the failure.That was 6 yrs ago.
Anyway guys sorry bout the derail.
Rodd
Recruit
Haven't have time. Hopefully we will be able to get to it this weekend.