6.5L
Old Iron Runner
So scrolling thru ebay and found this on a 506 Optimizer block for sale, same as the Optimizer I had. Notice anything familiar? Literally identical damage. Makes me wonder
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Optimizer Failure Points?
- Thread starter 6.5L
- Start date
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Hmmm. I don't like you right now. Quit scaring me.
Once was bad enough.
Seriously though, I am really debating pulling my engine out when I do all my upgrades and repairs as soon as I can get I to my garage (sister's 93 cummins pusher rv in the way - soon to be up for sale).
It would be nice to check things out and look at those 2 cylinders.
Gapless rings maybe- As an excuse- you know.
The optimizer compression is 20.5:1 iirc, thinking about +.10 felpro gaskets to drop it to 20:1? I never though about it before- then I need to do something for valve opening loss, right?
Sorry for the sidetrack question.
Maybe teds or boyce will have seen enough to have input.- anyone know them well enough to get a straight answer- and while you talk to them- get current pricing and if any are available- there is a hummer guy that might need one and can't afford a new engine from Leroy. (One day, the rest of that forum will all be members here). I thought I was the only broke hummer owner. Turns out owning a hummer makes people go broke -HAHA!
Once was bad enough.
Seriously though, I am really debating pulling my engine out when I do all my upgrades and repairs as soon as I can get I to my garage (sister's 93 cummins pusher rv in the way - soon to be up for sale).
It would be nice to check things out and look at those 2 cylinders.
Gapless rings maybe- As an excuse- you know.
The optimizer compression is 20.5:1 iirc, thinking about +.10 felpro gaskets to drop it to 20:1? I never though about it before- then I need to do something for valve opening loss, right?
Sorry for the sidetrack question.
Maybe teds or boyce will have seen enough to have input.- anyone know them well enough to get a straight answer- and while you talk to them- get current pricing and if any are available- there is a hummer guy that might need one and can't afford a new engine from Leroy. (One day, the rest of that forum will all be members here). I thought I was the only broke hummer owner. Turns out owning a hummer makes people go broke -HAHA!
The word "optimizer" really means nothing, I found NO changes in design over GM other than one valve seat in the head.. maybe they changed the metal some and maybe they didn't.. anyone ever send a chunk off for testing??
Sure they made a attempt to help, oil squrters etc, but no changes in the areas that proved to need help...
I find that most of it is hype generated for sales via the believe everything web....
The GEP vs GM thing was only a owner/foundry change..
The cutaway parts I have done show nothing was truly changed till the P400, then they totally changed every aspect of the motor, they knew they had a flowed design and nothing would change that short of total redesign..
The so called optimizer is showing the same flaws as older blocks do and then some, the more time that goes by the more this will become apparent...
Piss poor design can't be over come with things like bolt on the main cap things, and such, it's all just a warm fuzzy false sense of security...
Sure they made a attempt to help, oil squrters etc, but no changes in the areas that proved to need help...
I find that most of it is hype generated for sales via the believe everything web....
The GEP vs GM thing was only a owner/foundry change..
The cutaway parts I have done show nothing was truly changed till the P400, then they totally changed every aspect of the motor, they knew they had a flowed design and nothing would change that short of total redesign..
The so called optimizer is showing the same flaws as older blocks do and then some, the more time that goes by the more this will become apparent...
Piss poor design can't be over come with things like bolt on the main cap things, and such, it's all just a warm fuzzy false sense of security...
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Big book response warning!!!
Besides not seeing the main web cracks you guys know to look for, here is why I know it is so different.
Not seeing the cylinder wall split- which is super appearant on center mount turbos in rear number 8 where the hmmwvs still use the 4 bolt waterpump and routinely run high ect temps. They wipe out the rings from it, and talking to couple different guys in the motor pools- on sample engine tear downs, the rings are newr gone and some piston scuffing occurs on #8 to the point of temporary engine sieze is possible. This is exactly what was going on with all the cracked block gm castings except the optimizer blocks are handling it with out failure- but the blocks failed before the piston got squished in place.
The sucess rate of the GEP optimizer in hmmwvs compared to GM castings was perfect. It all but eliminated all the blown engines the hmmwvs were experiencing. The only reason they went to the p400 was that hmmwv weight and load rating doubled. Most up armoured hmmwvs drive around at 18,000 lbs. Compare that to a normal slantback at 8,800 lbs. with all the added weight they would not accelerate any faster than grandma in her wheel chair.
When Gale Banks got involved, he started building them kits that was 450hp and 700 torque. Then they started having rod failure, not block failure. With the long known history of the mains blowing out, he worked with the GEP engineers and educated them about all the mods done in modern racing engines. Then they designed the p400. I talked to him about trying to get them to do the 2 waterpump system we figured out that led to the balanced flow pump. GEP/ AM General lawyes squashed that as too similar to GM's new pump.
When they did the banks hmmwv demonstration compared to the stock one at 29 Palms- they told the overheating story. I got up to talk about the circulitory issue, and my hoodscoop design, and why they should skip it and focus on stack redeisgn. I would imagine if you search the web you can find the video of it around still. (If so, post a copy please). I am sitting in the second row on the right hand bleachers all the way to the right with my leg hanging off when the camera pans while he is taking questions- me in a suit- haha. I did see Gales talk posted years ago, not mine- I guess I'm not as cool as him- HAHA, DUH! It didn't make the video that I saw, but in the q&a session, the failure rate of the optimizer was brought up.
They made it abundantly clear, they were having almost no failures, but only doing the "high performance engine" (p400) on the fully up armoured hmmwvs. That is why they are still producing the optimizer today. If it were a failure and the p400 was a fix for it, they would have stopped the optimizer and only started making the p400. His complete package fixing steering and handling issues made it too expensive to swallow. If he had done an engine package and put in the handling pakage with it, they would be using his complete system.
So do I think it is a failure proof engine- of course not. But the ability to withstand what we accept as "too hot" (220 and above) while the military is out there telling guys- "it is only 240, keep going" and not having the cylinder wall split open on #8 should explain alot. The added heat and stress in hummers is so bad to the #8 that if you read on the hummer forum - they just call them "at risk blocks" or say "I had #8" and everyone knows what they are talking about. Hummer dealerships literally sent someone out to every single hummer owners house that did not respond to the letters over the overheating issues trying to deal with the problem(kinda).
In pickups, the side mounted turbo keeps enough extra heat away from the head that they can generally survive better. But even then- I have called it on a couple of engines on this forum for "look at #8 first" to be asked -how did you know- once the engine got opened up.
Seeing the rods have bent and smaked the bottom of the cylinders is nothing new for any 6.5. Most all of us have seen the s shaped rods at least once.- you, me, WarWagon,consaka, Bill Heath on the flats once iirc at 140-all come to mid quickly- more have to be on here... But it just depends which way the metal bends.
The fact that optimizers still bend rods and can hit there isn't sign of the block being bad.
All the Mercedes idi- 5 and 6 cylinder that have the same high compression and higher rpm running engines like us bend their rods into s shape also. Just bieng inline instead of v design thiers hits other areas, usually piston skirt to crank.
I have never cut a chunk out of parts and sent them in, but I have put magnets to them and could feel a difference in the holding power- just a hillbilly test on the metalurgy I was explaining to my son learning about magnetism in different metals for science class. Something is noteably different doing that- and why would GEP lie about using an exact match to the original Detroit engineered spec that GM pinched pennies on? GEP was not planning on selling them to the public- only to their 1 customer- themselves- AM General.
They even fought in court to not have to sell to the open public at first. Who were they to marketing to?
They were releasing the info they were required to because of going from publicly traded company (GM) to a sole source - originally AM General was to be the name on it. GEP company had to be created as a seperate entity for legal reasons mandated by military sales contracts since AM General wanted to stop using the outsourced GM engine. There are a ton of parts AM General would not sell to the public (hummer owners) until the forced creation of GEP- General (as in AM General) Engine Products - a subsidiary of AM General...
AM General needed a solution to the cracked blocks problems plaguing the hmmwvs. They were worried about hmmwv replacement coming sooner because of it. There was lawsuits over the balanced flow waterpump (pretty sure I mentioned those before here). I got pulled into it becasue of the testing I did with/for GM when I worked for Rebel/Unical/American Truck. We did all the flow testing. I am the one that cut the side out of a block and mated the bullet proof glass to the side to watch the coolant flow issues on the cylinders. It was my 12v waterpumps we used for the 2 separate pumps to see the flow volume 1 side at a time. (Why I shake my head when people still think balanced flow waterpump is no biggie or worse try to credit Bill Heath with it.)
Still today hmmwvs use the bolt on waterpump with its uneven flow because the lawsuit issue of GM having "corrected the overheating issue" that they thought would stop AM General from being allowed to make their own 6.5 liter engine. AM General cant use the balanced flow waterpump until the year 2018 (? iirc). I doubt they will bother with the sucess the optimizer 6500 (they are not allowed to call it a 6.5 liter, they have to call it the 6500 kl {kiloliter} or just optimizer 6500- again legal issue).
The ruling came out that GM knowingly defrauded AM General and as compensation they could, under a seperate company (GEP) produce and sell an exact copy or any modified version of it, without royalties to GM. But in AM General not accepting they "fix" of the balanced flow waterpump, they are not even allowed to use it on their products for 20 years from the lawsuit date. That was a countersuit filed by GM. The same one that mandated the "injured name" of GM 6.5 should be able to force GEP to have to sell to anyone, including the public, the engine. Which is why you cant buy only a block or only a single piston. The court set what parts they had to openly sell.
GEP has to sell at the same price they sell to AM General, and in paying order- thats why you cant buy a p400 option 6500 optimizer right now, they have another customer that put in and paid for a certian number of engines, AM General. Once the order is filled, then Leroy and others can get their name back on the list. - I bet Leroy has at least 2 people offering him cash right now for new p400 that he cant get from GEP because of it.
Besides not seeing the main web cracks you guys know to look for, here is why I know it is so different.
Not seeing the cylinder wall split- which is super appearant on center mount turbos in rear number 8 where the hmmwvs still use the 4 bolt waterpump and routinely run high ect temps. They wipe out the rings from it, and talking to couple different guys in the motor pools- on sample engine tear downs, the rings are newr gone and some piston scuffing occurs on #8 to the point of temporary engine sieze is possible. This is exactly what was going on with all the cracked block gm castings except the optimizer blocks are handling it with out failure- but the blocks failed before the piston got squished in place.
The sucess rate of the GEP optimizer in hmmwvs compared to GM castings was perfect. It all but eliminated all the blown engines the hmmwvs were experiencing. The only reason they went to the p400 was that hmmwv weight and load rating doubled. Most up armoured hmmwvs drive around at 18,000 lbs. Compare that to a normal slantback at 8,800 lbs. with all the added weight they would not accelerate any faster than grandma in her wheel chair.
When Gale Banks got involved, he started building them kits that was 450hp and 700 torque. Then they started having rod failure, not block failure. With the long known history of the mains blowing out, he worked with the GEP engineers and educated them about all the mods done in modern racing engines. Then they designed the p400. I talked to him about trying to get them to do the 2 waterpump system we figured out that led to the balanced flow pump. GEP/ AM General lawyes squashed that as too similar to GM's new pump.
When they did the banks hmmwv demonstration compared to the stock one at 29 Palms- they told the overheating story. I got up to talk about the circulitory issue, and my hoodscoop design, and why they should skip it and focus on stack redeisgn. I would imagine if you search the web you can find the video of it around still. (If so, post a copy please). I am sitting in the second row on the right hand bleachers all the way to the right with my leg hanging off when the camera pans while he is taking questions- me in a suit- haha. I did see Gales talk posted years ago, not mine- I guess I'm not as cool as him- HAHA, DUH! It didn't make the video that I saw, but in the q&a session, the failure rate of the optimizer was brought up.
They made it abundantly clear, they were having almost no failures, but only doing the "high performance engine" (p400) on the fully up armoured hmmwvs. That is why they are still producing the optimizer today. If it were a failure and the p400 was a fix for it, they would have stopped the optimizer and only started making the p400. His complete package fixing steering and handling issues made it too expensive to swallow. If he had done an engine package and put in the handling pakage with it, they would be using his complete system.
So do I think it is a failure proof engine- of course not. But the ability to withstand what we accept as "too hot" (220 and above) while the military is out there telling guys- "it is only 240, keep going" and not having the cylinder wall split open on #8 should explain alot. The added heat and stress in hummers is so bad to the #8 that if you read on the hummer forum - they just call them "at risk blocks" or say "I had #8" and everyone knows what they are talking about. Hummer dealerships literally sent someone out to every single hummer owners house that did not respond to the letters over the overheating issues trying to deal with the problem(kinda).
In pickups, the side mounted turbo keeps enough extra heat away from the head that they can generally survive better. But even then- I have called it on a couple of engines on this forum for "look at #8 first" to be asked -how did you know- once the engine got opened up.
Seeing the rods have bent and smaked the bottom of the cylinders is nothing new for any 6.5. Most all of us have seen the s shaped rods at least once.- you, me, WarWagon,consaka, Bill Heath on the flats once iirc at 140-all come to mid quickly- more have to be on here... But it just depends which way the metal bends.
The fact that optimizers still bend rods and can hit there isn't sign of the block being bad.
All the Mercedes idi- 5 and 6 cylinder that have the same high compression and higher rpm running engines like us bend their rods into s shape also. Just bieng inline instead of v design thiers hits other areas, usually piston skirt to crank.
I have never cut a chunk out of parts and sent them in, but I have put magnets to them and could feel a difference in the holding power- just a hillbilly test on the metalurgy I was explaining to my son learning about magnetism in different metals for science class. Something is noteably different doing that- and why would GEP lie about using an exact match to the original Detroit engineered spec that GM pinched pennies on? GEP was not planning on selling them to the public- only to their 1 customer- themselves- AM General.
They even fought in court to not have to sell to the open public at first. Who were they to marketing to?
They were releasing the info they were required to because of going from publicly traded company (GM) to a sole source - originally AM General was to be the name on it. GEP company had to be created as a seperate entity for legal reasons mandated by military sales contracts since AM General wanted to stop using the outsourced GM engine. There are a ton of parts AM General would not sell to the public (hummer owners) until the forced creation of GEP- General (as in AM General) Engine Products - a subsidiary of AM General...
AM General needed a solution to the cracked blocks problems plaguing the hmmwvs. They were worried about hmmwv replacement coming sooner because of it. There was lawsuits over the balanced flow waterpump (pretty sure I mentioned those before here). I got pulled into it becasue of the testing I did with/for GM when I worked for Rebel/Unical/American Truck. We did all the flow testing. I am the one that cut the side out of a block and mated the bullet proof glass to the side to watch the coolant flow issues on the cylinders. It was my 12v waterpumps we used for the 2 separate pumps to see the flow volume 1 side at a time. (Why I shake my head when people still think balanced flow waterpump is no biggie or worse try to credit Bill Heath with it.)
Still today hmmwvs use the bolt on waterpump with its uneven flow because the lawsuit issue of GM having "corrected the overheating issue" that they thought would stop AM General from being allowed to make their own 6.5 liter engine. AM General cant use the balanced flow waterpump until the year 2018 (? iirc). I doubt they will bother with the sucess the optimizer 6500 (they are not allowed to call it a 6.5 liter, they have to call it the 6500 kl {kiloliter} or just optimizer 6500- again legal issue).
The ruling came out that GM knowingly defrauded AM General and as compensation they could, under a seperate company (GEP) produce and sell an exact copy or any modified version of it, without royalties to GM. But in AM General not accepting they "fix" of the balanced flow waterpump, they are not even allowed to use it on their products for 20 years from the lawsuit date. That was a countersuit filed by GM. The same one that mandated the "injured name" of GM 6.5 should be able to force GEP to have to sell to anyone, including the public, the engine. Which is why you cant buy only a block or only a single piston. The court set what parts they had to openly sell.
GEP has to sell at the same price they sell to AM General, and in paying order- thats why you cant buy a p400 option 6500 optimizer right now, they have another customer that put in and paid for a certian number of engines, AM General. Once the order is filled, then Leroy and others can get their name back on the list. - I bet Leroy has at least 2 people offering him cash right now for new p400 that he cant get from GEP because of it.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Once GEP opened production to the dealerships, GM quickly closed production sighting a 30% loss of potential sales and tried another counter suit which failed. GM then kept the 6.5 doors closed ahead of required dealership required parts supply schedule sighting GEP as a required supplier. GEP got fined for not meeting contract deadline to the USMC because hummer dealerships were buying engines to warranty the GM longblocks at AM Generals expense. That backed up hmmwv production. AM General won a suit proving GM did it on purpose when they mandated dealerships to go door to door and offer the free new longblocks provided the hummer was brought in within 6 months. That is when the courts ruled GM was not allowed to ever produce the 6.5 again. Remember GM announced they were going to resume 6.5 production with the new metulurgy and never did? Thats why.
Because of my involvement for the company I was part owner and the companies I worked for that did the testing for GM on the overheating, I followed it all closely. I was of course worried I could get caught up on the wrong side of a lawsuit instead if just testifying.
Same engine wihout improvements? No. Major improvements by just proper metal if nothing else. Remember i was wanting to "save" my scratched optimizer cam even if the lobes are exactly the same and have you do the coating on it rather than my GM cam? Thats how convinced I am about the difference in metal quality. I just wish that GEP used a better source for their bearings or wish GM had not used rolled cam bearings.
I do agree 100% the p400 is a completely different animal that is light years better than any of it's predecessors. If I had the money, I would have my name on Leroy's list of call me the day they are available, and my optimizer would be in another toy or sold.
Because of my involvement for the company I was part owner and the companies I worked for that did the testing for GM on the overheating, I followed it all closely. I was of course worried I could get caught up on the wrong side of a lawsuit instead if just testifying.
Same engine wihout improvements? No. Major improvements by just proper metal if nothing else. Remember i was wanting to "save" my scratched optimizer cam even if the lobes are exactly the same and have you do the coating on it rather than my GM cam? Thats how convinced I am about the difference in metal quality. I just wish that GEP used a better source for their bearings or wish GM had not used rolled cam bearings.
I do agree 100% the p400 is a completely different animal that is light years better than any of it's predecessors. If I had the money, I would have my name on Leroy's list of call me the day they are available, and my optimizer would be in another toy or sold.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
There are 3 optimizers for sale through government liqudation right now here at Nellis AFB. If anyone wants to buy them, I will go pick them up and tear them open to see how the bottom end is... haha.
I will put a small bid on them, but they usually get driven up too high.
I will put a small bid on them, but they usually get driven up too high.
6.5L
Old Iron Runner
I've been thinking a lot lately, and honestly, I'm just the kind of guy that needs to know what I have, from bottom to top. I am going to a 100% fresh rebuild, but now as it is my project, as I have another daily drivers, I am going to swing for the fences on a brand new Optimizer 506-specification block.....from Brazil. At this point, I wonder that if even a GEP Optimizer broke, why spend the extra cash just for it to happen again? And I'll never have the cash for a P400. So I found a block online, Brazilian 506 based. $1800 bare block. Brand new. I think I'm going to pull the trigger on it and see exactly how much it can hold up to my abuse. Will be interesting to see if it has the same strength as a new block, or if it will per-maturely fail.
Sometimes credit is due is for bringing the balance flow issue out into the open. Regardless, when equipped, the cooling issue is indeed aggravated by the restrictive turbo keeping excessive heat in the engine due to backpressure.
TAG
Member
For the record, the optimizer was an improvement over the gm engine's. The deck is thicker and the head bolts are deeper to combat radial cracking in #8 and blown head gasket. The main website are .020 thicker & moly was added to the casting to stop main website cracking. 10 mm outer main bolts as well. The head castings were reworked as well to eliminate cracking between valves. I read all the 6.5 forums fairly regularly & have not personally read of any gep engine failures. Possible I've just missed them all. When I bought my engine from peninsular, I asked Matt about failures in the Marine world with the 2 different engine's. He told me all but one of the gm engine's he sold cracked. As of 9/13/2006, they had not had a single failure in any of the gep engine's. Pretty significant difference for an engine that had not been improved in any way. The optimizer is more than sufficient for any normal use in a pickup. The p400 would probably be a better choice for someone like Nate pushing 420 & 700 at the crank, but his optimizer seems to be holding up fine.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Brazilian huh? Keep us in the loop. Just please dont model any swimwear they send with it!
6.5L
Old Iron Runner
I can't make those types of guarantee's Will lol
tanman_2006
Just a farm kid...
Something about abuse and the ability to break and anvil with a feather just doesn't fair well for any engine....
3500_6.5
Well-Known Member
For what it's worth, if it's not too late, I believe I have one of these blocks. I can't confirm that it is the exact same block, but it is an aftermarket one. It was bought off of eBay probably ten years ago and was claimed to be based off of the gep block and was around $2000 at the time. I don't know if it was a Brazil block or Chinese (my brother bought it and he doesn't remember), but as a warning, it was ran for roughly 40,000-50,000 miles with 18:1 pistons, a marine pump and stock turbo. It is currently sitting in my barn as a junk engine bc the mains are all cracked at the bolt holes. So be warned, they may not fair any better than any of the other factory blocks.
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n8in8or
I never met a project I didn’t like
So it's sounding like the failure point for the Optimizers now is the connecting rods......I wonder if there's a readily-available connecting rod that is stronger and could be minimally modified to fit in our Optimizers? I would sure love to tear mine down and inspect it now that I've run it at this power level for a year.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
I gotta say- yours would be a fine example of how well they hold up under power that we could all watch.
We know there are a bunch of them moving around up armoured hmmwvs, but can't really track them or get pics of diss assembly inspections.
Some variables in their of course by mass production assembly vs hand build and upgraded parts. If it were block issue- yours should show it rather quickly. Same for rod failure. That torque you are throwing...
Of course we see pics and noise is made of the failures, but ya never see pics of the thousands that just keep going.
I wonder how many Teds and Boyce have encountered.
We know there are a bunch of them moving around up armoured hmmwvs, but can't really track them or get pics of diss assembly inspections.
Some variables in their of course by mass production assembly vs hand build and upgraded parts. If it were block issue- yours should show it rather quickly. Same for rod failure. That torque you are throwing...
Of course we see pics and noise is made of the failures, but ya never see pics of the thousands that just keep going.
I wonder how many Teds and Boyce have encountered.
n8in8or
I never met a project I didn’t like
I have no problem being a guinea pig. Since it's my daily driver right now, an exploratory teardown isn't very convenient, however I'm hoping to have a new daily next year...and if that happens a teardown will probably be one of the first things done.
On the topic of Ted's - I would love to know what they do with the engines that don't pass their inspection process. It seems like this would be a great source for Optimizer blocks, rods and maybe cranks and heads that could be used for rebuilds. I sure wouldn't mind having some Optimizer spares for repair or future building.....
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Yeah - never thought about the ones that dont pass, but I really don't think they would have a bunch. The military swaps them on time/miles so most would come out great. The takeouts that have have problems are usually easily identifiable at auctions-tons of gm6.5s had left head off engine and end up going straight to scrap yard. Not many gm 6.5s left in hmmwvs so most are optimizers. Unfortunately most entire hmmwvs get sent as scrap metal.
Husker6.5
135' diagonal 16:9HD, 25KW sound!
Husker6.5
135' diagonal 16:9HD, 25KW sound!
Is this the beastie you're talking about? I've been watching it on eBay for over three years in case of catastrophic failure of my 98 Burb's block: Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/161072520139
6.5L
Old Iron Runner
It is, as soon as I pay down the credit card, I'm ordering it. Hopefully next week or the paycheck after