Oil in Coolant

[coxpn2]

I've been a member over at DP for awhile now, and have heard rumblings about how this site has more activity due to some changes made over there. No idea whether that is true or not, but I've been reading up on old posts over here for the last week or so and it looks like everyone is pretty helpful over here.

So anyway, here is what I've got going on:
-Bought suburban with blown engine, also bought donor truck with running engine.
-Took engine from truck and put into suburban, maybe 2k ago.
-Experienced loss of coolant, quite frequently had to fill coolant reservoir. (didn't appear to be going into crankcase - oil level didn't change).
-One night it started smoking white, decided to let it sit for a week.
-Ran it again, once warmed up it started smoking white again - ran for maybe 10 minutes while smoking.
-Tried to start it the next day to get it up to my parents barn - won't crank at all, needed to tow it up there.
-Tore down the engine in the truck (drained coolant only from the radiator drain, heater hoses, and top hose to thermostat).
-Pulled heads off in truck, coolant splashes all over when heads come off.
-Looks like head gasket is shot on passenger side front-most cylinder, possibly also drivers side rear-most cylinder.
-Get sick of working in the cold in the truck, so I decide to pull the engine out.
-Drain oil, and get a bunch of coolant out of the oil pan before oil starts draining out.

How would that much coolant get into the crankcase? All cylinders appear (from what I've seen) to be ok - no cracks. I haven't done an exhaustive examination - rotate so each piston is at lowest point and examine cylinder, but I'm hoping to get some clarity before I go back up there to work on it. I know if water is getting into the combustion chamber it'll force its way past the piston into the crankcase, but how much water could realistically go past the piston in 10 minutes of running without taking out the block wall?

I'm hoping for any insight before I go back up there this afternoon, so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

 

[WarWagon]

You can get a lot of coolant in the oil from pulling the heads. Cut the oil filter open to see if there is sluge in it, look at the CDR for a white sludge, and under the rocker covers. This will tell you if you had coolant in the oil or if it was from the heads coming off.

Coolant can leak through cracked heads and a cracked block. Also the water pump and timing cover are worth a look at lest to reseal them.

Pull the oil pan and look for cracks at the bottom of the cylinders and main webs.

Spin the engine over and make sure the pistons all come up to the same height as you may have bent a rod trying to crank it with coolant in the cylinder.

If the block checks out I would get ARP head studs and seal the block side with blue locktight and re-ring the pistons. It's out may as well eliminate blow by while it is easy. Myself I use gapless rings and have really clean oil vs. the usual coal color.

The other site is like preschool. It is best to leave that horse dead. Welcome.

 

[Will L.]

Welcome to The Truck Stop. WW is on the $.

 

[coxpn2]

You can get a lot of coolant in the oil from pulling the heads. Cut the oil filter open to see if there is sluge in it, look at the CDR for a white sludge, and under the rocker covers. This will tell you if you had coolant in the oil or if it was from the heads coming off.

Coolant can leak through cracked heads and a cracked block. Also the water pump and timing cover are worth a look at lest to reseal them.

Pull the oil pan and look for cracks at the bottom of the cylinders and main webs.

Spin the engine over and make sure the pistons all come up to the same height as you may have bent a rod trying to crank it with coolant in the cylinder.

If the block checks out I would get ARP head studs and seal the block side with blue locktight and re-ring the pistons. It's out may as well eliminate blow by while it is easy. Myself I use gapless rings and have really clean oil vs. the usual coal color.

The other site is like preschool. It is best to leave that horse dead. Welcome.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to an engine stand at this point, making pulling the pan and checking the lower end pretty difficult. I am hoping to get this buttoned up ASAP (it's my wife's primary vehicle, and it's been about 3 weeks now she's been without it). If I'm looking at more than another week I think I'm going to have to look for a temporary replacement vehicle - something that I'd rather not do. That said, I also don't want to cut any corners and have to pull the engine again anytime soon.

How does the coolant get into the lower end? The coolant in the oil didn't have any sludgy consistency (looked exactly like someone just dumped it into the wrong hole - nice green color like it came out of the bottle). CDR looked normal, valves looked normal as well. Based on what you've mentioned above, there is no indication that the coolant got into the oil and it ran like that.

Knowing this - would I be dumb if I did the following: check the piston height (ensuring no bent rods), new head gaskets and buttoned it back up? New oil before start up, then change the oil after 100 miles or so just because? I would assume since the lower end hasn't had any issues yet, and water pump/timing cover hasn't leaked yet, that these points should be fine?

Again, I don't want to cut corners, but not having this running is causing problems. But then again, I don't know a ton about the internals on these engines (enough to be dangerous ) and don't want to have to pull the engine again soon to replace the water pump gasket!

What do you think?

 

[Big T]

Welcome to TTS. My first stop was DP, but only briefly. I followed the blood trail from a fight and ended up here, never looking back. You'll find nothing but help here from arguably the best 6.5 diesel wrenches around.

I came here with a '95 Suburban that was bought tow boats down Baja for fishing at the East Cape. Never did go down with my boat as the 6.5 would never make the grades in the heat of August. Fast forward and because of the advice and input of this site, there's not much I can't do on these trucks and there's not much my truck can't do. The performance brings a smile of confidence to my face.

 

[Will L.]

Yeah, sound like you should be ok with it like that. Of coarse still verify heads and block are good. ARP Stud the heads, as you have to replace the 1 the use head bolts anyways, and 1 set of studs is cheap insurance -especially if you ever have to get back into it. Felpro or victor rienze (sp?) headgaskets. New AC Delco ONLY t stat. Consider new rocker arm plugs & make sure push rods go in right side up. Put in oil pressure extension hose when going back together. Pay attention to the balancer while your that close to it-that is what breaks these cranks. Do Not use the hb mount bolt to rotate the engine, flywheel turner is $10 at harbor freight.

 

[Burning oil]

Egine stands are cheap too, check Harbor frieght for that also.
Welcome to TTS.

BTW I have access to so many parts for the 6.5 that I can't list them (yet) on my site, ARP head and main studs being some. I have the best price normally, if you need just shoot me an email.

 

[JayTheCPA]

Did not see this as part of the overall plan: Oil Analysis.

Short version is that I had most of the indications as yours (coolant consumption, no change in oil level) except the truck ran fine, did not smoke, and I only drained oil out of the sump. Yeah, sure, coolant consumption should have served as a clue, but have had other losses which traced to slow leaks at connectors. Oil analysis caught coolant and lots of wear metals in the oil, which lead to a decision to replace the motor (the mechanic is allergic to fixing 6.5's and I do not blame him as his customers push OE 6.5's past their limits as work trucks, but that is another story).

Given that the Burb is your Wife's ride, recommend doing a more through inspection but understand the desire to get it running quickly.

If the decision is to just get the Burb running after some light top-end work and no bottom end inspection, recommend oil analysis at least every 5K for the interim and working on a replacement motor for a swap in the very near future as a noisy IDI is much more enjoyable than the lengthy 'I-told-ya-so' lectures when the IDI goes quiet . . .

 

[WarWagon]

Rent a car.
Get an engine stand. As above or look on Cl for a used one.
Pull the oil pan, water pump, and timing cover. You want to reseal the timing cover as it is a possible coolant leak. A HO water pump from a 1998 is a good idea.

It is worth it to do it right for long engine life. You already have the engine out so it is easy to do a light overhaul.

How are the oil cooler lines? Stiff and old?

Coolant can also go into the auto trans via the in tank oil to water heat exchanger.

Clean the heads in the area between the valves looking for cracks. Coolant can enter through them if they get deep enough - common failure esp. if you got it over 210 ECT. You can get these fixed with a guide (machine shop) or get new heads.

With the pan off flip the engine over and wipe the oil away from the mains. Let sit overnight. Any cracks will show up as oil lines. (I have 40K on an engine with cracked mains after a re-ring. Depends on how bad the cracks are as to if you want to re-use the block.)

How was the blowby? If you have any at all I suggest a re-ring.
Stamp the cyl number on the rod caps and rods and pull the pistons and rods. Ebay for cheap rings or get gapless made/ordered.
With the rods off you can check bearing condition - if they are bad then you need to do bearings - Otherwise just rings.
Leave the crank/cam in the engine. Cover it and then use a cylinder deglazer to break the glaze on the cylinders. Clean the cylinders and then rinse and oil everything to get any debris out. Your first oil change is at 100 miles after this. You will need a ring compressor. Maybe a ring spreader depending on how cheap or good at it you are...

Always a few members in the area you can offer Beer to for help... :thumbsup:

 

[coxpn2]

Yeah, sound like you should be ok with it like that. Of coarse still verify heads and block are good. ARP Stud the heads, as you have to replace the 1 the use head bolts anyways, and 1 set of studs is cheap insurance -especially if you ever have to get back into it. Felpro or victor rienze (sp?) headgaskets. New AC Delco ONLY t stat. Consider new rocker arm plugs & make sure push rods go in right side up. Put in oil pressure extension hose when going back together. Pay attention to the balancer while your that close to it-that is what breaks these cranks. Do Not use the hb mount bolt to rotate the engine, flywheel turner is $10 at harbor freight.

Heads and block look good as far as I can see - my dad and I spent about 4-6 hrs cleaning them up, don't really see anything that concerned him or I. Good advice with everything I see here - but what is an "oil pressure extension hose"?

Egine stands are cheap too, check Harbor frieght for that also.
Welcome to TTS.

BTW I have access to so many parts for the 6.5 that I can't list them (yet) on my site, ARP head and main studs being some. I have the best price normally, if you need just shoot me an email.

Dumb question, but I'm assuming you are Leroy Diesel?

Did not see this as part of the overall plan: Oil Analysis.

Short version is that I had most of the indications as yours (coolant consumption, no change in oil level) except the truck ran fine, did not smoke, and I only drained oil out of the sump. Yeah, sure, coolant consumption should have served as a clue, but have had other losses which traced to slow leaks at connectors. Oil analysis caught coolant and lots of wear metals in the oil, which lead to a decision to replace the motor (the mechanic is allergic to fixing 6.5's and I do not blame him as his customers push OE 6.5's past their limits as work trucks, but that is another story).

Given that the Burb is your Wife's ride, recommend doing a more through inspection but understand the desire to get it running quickly.

If the decision is to just get the Burb running after some light top-end work and no bottom end inspection, recommend oil analysis at least every 5K for the interim and working on a replacement motor for a swap in the very near future as a noisy IDI is much more enjoyable than the lengthy 'I-told-ya-so' lectures when the IDI goes quiet . . .

Seems like a good idea on the oil analysis... where do I look/send it out to be analyzed?

Rent a car.
Get an engine stand. As above or look on Cl for a used one.
Pull the oil pan, water pump, and timing cover. You want to reseal the timing cover as it is a possible coolant leak. A HO water pump from a 1998 is a good idea.

It is worth it to do it right for long engine life. You already have the engine out so it is easy to do a light overhaul.

How are the oil cooler lines? Stiff and old?

Coolant can also go into the auto trans via the in tank oil to water heat exchanger.

Clean the heads in the area between the valves looking for cracks. Coolant can enter through them if they get deep enough - common failure esp. if you got it over 210 ECT. You can get these fixed with a guide (machine shop) or get new heads.

With the pan off flip the engine over and wipe the oil away from the mains. Let sit overnight. Any cracks will show up as oil lines. (I have 40K on an engine with cracked mains after a re-ring. Depends on how bad the cracks are as to if you want to re-use the block.)

How was the blowby? If you have any at all I suggest a re-ring.
Stamp the cyl number on the rod caps and rods and pull the pistons and rods. Ebay for cheap rings or get gapless made/ordered.
With the rods off you can check bearing condition - if they are bad then you need to do bearings - Otherwise just rings.
Leave the crank/cam in the engine. Cover it and then use a cylinder deglazer to break the glaze on the cylinders. Clean the cylinders and then rinse and oil everything to get any debris out. Your first oil change is at 100 miles after this. You will need a ring compressor. Maybe a ring spreader depending on how cheap or good at it you are...

Always a few members in the area you can offer Beer to for help... :thumbsup:

Oil cooler lines look good - they are factory, but look new. And great to know about the help potential!

I did check the piston height with a machinists straightedge and shined a light behind it; all look about the same so I'm not thinking a rod is bent.


Thanks so much for all of the replies, I tried to address all questions/comments so not to leave anything open ended, but I definitely read everything everyone wrote and took it into consideration. So here is what I decided to do:
~since all indications were that the coolant came from the head removal, I ASSUMED that I am not getting coolant from anywhere else into the oil. I am going to put new gaskets in it and button it back up. I figure that if I've got other issues I'll pull the engine at a more opportune time and work on it. I honestly do not have the time, the truck is 10 minutes away, the weather here is terrible (4 ft. of snow in a week) so I have to plow a lot, my wife doesn't have a car to get to her doctor's appointments and hour away (another baby on the way), the truck is not in a heated garage, I'd have to buy an engine stand and rent a car, my dad can't park in his garage because mine is in the way, it is almost Christmas (I want to spend time with my family not alone in the garage), etc.

If it were not for all of these factors, I would definitely do a complete tear down/inspection and see what I'm dealing with (as you guys have suggested). If I get it together and I have more issues, I'll have to buy another vehicle and let this one sit until spring.

The advice given here is great, and it all makes sense. (I like the site already ) I'm hoping that it goes back together and runs smooth at least until it gets warmer! I'll let you know how I make out.

 

[Burning oil]

Dumb question, but I'm assuming you are Leroy Diesel?

Yes.

 

[Will L.]

I meant to say "oil pressure switch extension hose". Your oil pressure switch is mounted in the valley below the intake manifold, about as big as a roll of quarters.

It sends signal to the pressure gauge, and also sends power to the fuel lift pump when the engine is running. Later on adding a relay in line is a good idea, but while you have it easily accessible, you buy from Leroy, or make one yourself an extension hose between the block and sending unit. If you make it, you have to carry a ground from the block to the sending unit. The are hard to change due to location and are a known problem. The hose makes it easy.

 

[JayTheCPA]

Seems like a good idea on the oil analysis... where do I look/send it out to be analyzed?

The most common companies people use are Blackstone Labs and Oil Analyzers. When taking a sample, make sure to get the motor up to running temp and drain within a few minutes of shut-down; waiting a long time to drain may skew the results as heavier particles will settle.

To help with oil drains and samples, consider a Fumoto (aka: quick drain valve).

While doing the rebuild, think about installing a remote oil filter (with preference of a bypass) kit as it makes filter changes on K series trucks a *lost* less gnasty than the OE design.

Am sure that Leroy can hook you up on all of these items. :thumbsup:

 

[Will L.]

We used to use a long plastic hose and little hand pump. The hose would go down the dipstick tube. Only took about30 seconds. We got the kit from the lab that did the testing. They can ship it with the sample bottles. Worth $20 for the ease and convenience of it.

 

[WarWagon]

Make sure you use new head bolts as these are one time use TTY, torque to Yield (Torque to near failure). It isn't a good idea, and explicitly stated as one time use in the shop manual, to reuse them as they are likely to loose clamping force or break resulting in a blown gasket. ARP head studs when sealed in the block with blue locktight or thread sealer are an install and forget about head gasket issues no matter how crazy you get sort of thing. You will blow the bottom end before another head gasket with ARP's.

 

[coxpn2]

That makes sense on the OPS. I did put a new AC Delco in when I did the engine swap a couple months ago. (How anyone gets that thing out in stock location is beyond me). But the extension seems like a good idea for the rebuild when it comes. Remote filter sounds good too when the time comes and it gets warmer

Used new head bolts with Permatex PTFE thread sealer. I do have studs that came with the suburban engine, but am missing a couple washers and didn't have time to track them down. Went with Felpro gaskets and head bolts - got the heads on, valve covers, injectors, GP's back on. Tonight I'm going for the injector lines and intake manifold. I need to make up the return line because I broke the stock one getting the valve covers off. I've got to find an 1/8 to 1/4 hose adapter (return line from injectors to 1/4 hose return from IP... )

Thanks for the info on the oil analysis, and thanks for all of the comments thus far!

 

[WarWagon]

That makes sense on the OPS. I did put a new AC Delco in when I did the engine swap a couple months ago. (How anyone gets that thing out in stock location is beyond me). But the extension seems like a good idea for the rebuild when it comes.

:rof: As you found some of us just pull the engine to change the OPS...

 

[coxpn2]

I figured I'd throw a quick update on here just to follow up:
Finished putting everything back together last Saturday, have about 200 miles on it now. Seems to run fine, upper radiator hose is soft, cold and warm. I'll keep an eye on the coolant and see if it drops, but no issues thus far.

New AC Delco thermostat definitely keeps the temp much more steady - it used to vary between maybe 190 and 210, now it hangs right around 195, maybe 200 consistently.

It's nice having 2 vehicles back on the road, wife is now able to go grocery shopping so we can eat again

I bought an engine stand from Harbor Freight (should have done that before I even started the project), my plan is to put the mystery engine with the broken crank on it and see what the deal is with it, maybe put it together for a spare if the block isn't cracked. I'll probably start another thread on that one - I posted over on DP the ID#'s, and no one new where the engine came from... ?

Thanks for all of the help/replies. I hope to be a frequent visitor/contributor/learner here in the future!

 

[GM Guy]

be careful with the harbor freight stand.

I went with a summit racing 2000 lb rated one. being import, I went on the side of caution, and got an overkill capacity one. IMO its just right, I dont think its overkill once I got it. darn import stuff.

welcome to the site!

 

[Chevypoor]

Glad she is behaving with the new engine. Welcome to the site!