NV4500 and BW Tcase rebuild begins

[tanman_2006]

So for this is what i have:

BW T case on the floor as well as tranny cross member.

I am waiting on a rebuild, removal, and install book from Quad 4x4 before i attempt to screw anything else up. As well as some specialty tools (I'm sure other tools could have been made to work).

I am pricing rebuild kits from a couple suppliers but I will let yall know where I order kits from when I get to that point. Talked to Blumenthals, quad 4x4, and a local rebuilder (did the first rebuild in Ol Blue when dad twisted the bell housing). Any suggestions are welcome!

Rebuilds will include (but are not limited to): 1 BW Tcase (shift forks are bad), 2 NV4500's, 2 custom clutches, 2 new solid flywheels.

These are going into Ol' Blue and the unnamed 93 service truck.

Future upgrades to axles/gears and a ranger OD/splitter might find its way into this thread too. Also been bouncing NV5600 and ZF6 swap ideas off of quad 4x4 guys.

 

[3500GMC]

And so it begins..

I like the squirrel tail you tied to the antenner..

 

[tanman_2006]

Gotta stay hydrated in the 110 days

 

[GM Guy]

Keep us posted, but I bet a ZF6 8.1L/duramax version would go in easier than a 5600, since the 5600 never graced GM frame rails.

keep me posted on that shift lever! I am not a fan of hacking on the tunnels.

IMO, on the gearing, 3.42s would be nice, as you can tow in 4th gear, and cruise in 5th. might even try and find lower numbers than that if they are available for the 14 bolt. if the Class 8 market can do it, so can we! saw a 600 hp Western Star advertised a week or so ago, and it had a 2.81 rear end ratio. keep in mind, that is the one benefit to 4wd, if she cant launch, 4wd low till you get on the flat and or on pavement.

good luck!

 

[tanman_2006]

I don't really need a 6spd im just wanting stronger. After getting off the phone with the shop manager at quad 4x4 I feel I might end up getting a 96 or newer bell housing with a dodge hd 4500. He made it sound pretty basic.

I have to agree with your 3.42 suggestion for those that keep gm turbos and only tow moderate loads. Personally I don't use 4lo that often and if I do its just to drag a tractor out of a mud hole or something. On flat ground I feel like im lugging too much to take off and plan to go 4.56 gears with a ranger gear splitter and att turbo. I think that would be less stress on the engine in the long run. That's my plan for the 93 atleast

 

[tanman_2006]

Gm guy, what problem are you having with the shifter? Trying to get retainer nut loose or getting the tower off?

I've got mine out but my puter crashed today so pics might take a while to upload.

 

[tanman_2006]

Sorry if the pics don't come out good or don't load, im doing this all on my phone now. I loaded a pic of Ol' Blue and the 93 flat bed who are both the victims in this rebuild. I've got 2 nine piece synchro kits, 2 full bearing and seal kits, 1 rebuild manual, and a tailshaft nut removal socket (made of gold) on the way from quad 4x4.

 

[GM Guy]

well, the shifter I have been playing with is full length, no option for taking off the majority of the lever and leaving a stub. one long ass stick. in the one piece top cover, with no removeable top shifter piece like 95+.

I assume it has to be released some how, snap ring, press and turn, etc. but IDK how.



what is your launch technique? is this the only qualm about going with faster gears, and the reason with going for deeper gears? any reason for reserving 4 low for extraction?

for a very heavy towing perspective, (a 9230 Steiger has graced the trailer before! ) I know my boss prefers the 3.55s in the dana 80 second gens over his 3.73s in the AAM 11.5 in the 3rd gens.

on all of the trucks he feels in direct it isnt fast enough, and OD is lugging, so he would prefer even faster gears so that he can do 60-65 in direct with a reasonable RPM. think 3.42s or 3.23s.

how about going wild fast in one truck, and wild slow in the other? 3.42 (or faster is they offer it for the 14 bolt) in one, and 4.56 in the other. and see which one actually works better.

I am just not a fan of the 2-ton truck gearing style, but more the semi gearing style, but in the end it is your decision.

good luck!

 

[GM Guy]

well, the shifter I have been playing with is full length, no option for taking off the majority of the lever and leaving a stub. one long ass stick. in the one piece top cover, with no removeable top shifter piece like 95+.

I assume it has to be released some how, snap ring, press and turn, etc. but IDK how.



what is your launch technique? is this the only qualm about going with faster gears, and the reason with going for deeper gears? any reason for reserving 4 low for extraction?

for a very heavy towing perspective, (a 9230 Steiger has graced the trailer before! ) I know my boss prefers the 3.55s in the dana 80 second gens over his 3.73s in the AAM 11.5 in the 3rd gens.

on all of the trucks he feels in direct it isnt fast enough, and OD is lugging, so he would prefer even faster gears so that he can do 60-65 in direct with a reasonable RPM. think 3.42s or 3.23s.

how about going wild fast in one truck, and wild slow in the other? 3.42 (or faster is they offer it for the 14 bolt) in one, and 4.56 in the other. and see which one actually works better.

I am just not a fan of the 2-ton truck gearing style, but more the semi gearing style, but in the end it is your decision.

good luck!

 

[tanman_2006]

To remove the shifter from the tower I grabbed a flat screw driver with a sharp tip and hit down and counterclockwise on the smooth/spring loaded nut at the base of the shifter. Out poped the shifter. To do this you must have it in either 3rd or 4th gear.

My launch technique is let the engine have all she can handle w/o killing it and feather the throttle.

You can't shift from 4lo to 2hi on the fly, or atleast not without alot of grinding. I can't get started on flat found with walbro pump, turned up ip, and wastgate set to 15. My timing might be off and not giving me the low end grunt im looking for, I am going to check that 1st.

Blue wont get lower than 4.10s but it might go higher. The reason for the ranger is so I can theoretically haul in 1:1 on the 4500 and put the stouter built ranger in OD

 

[GM Guy]

I take it tandem dually goose full of round bales? I know hauling equipment, we never have launch problems, even in the 2wds. so I am assuming you are at big weights?

thanks for the info on the shifter. I forgot to ask, does yours have a removeable shift lever? a quick visit to quad 4x4 suggests I got a special tranny since it has that stinking lever. I take it it was a very early production, which they changed to removeable from stub type lever after some poor sap had to pull one out.

so you are saying old blue might end up with 3.42s, but the big dooley (how the local chevy dealer spells it! ) needs to go lower, like 4.56??

do you think an early C3500HD with the 6.34 1st and reverse ratio NV4500 coupled to a 5.13 geared Dana 80 might take care of you launching needs, or does it still need to be lower? IMO, the two sets of gears and the ranger unit might buy a whole C3500HD.

good luck!

 

[tanman_2006]

I've been looking for an early yr 3500hd 92-95 but couldn't come up with anything decent. That's why I was putting in an offer on that bucket truck you found. The money went to my 00 crew cab and what's left is building the 93.

I only need something that big for the highway loads. The dually will go lower but Blue will stay at 4.10 probably. Blues build includes a dodge sas and lift for an idea of the direction im taking it.

Ill check my 93 and see what shift lever it has. Ill also take closer pics of what i'm talking about. What is your oddball tranny out of?

 

[GM Guy]

pulled from a 88 C2500 with a semi floating 14 bolt. surely from either a p-chassis or C3500HD, as it has the long tailhousing. also has a drain plug IIRC, and only the early ones got that.

 

[tanman_2006]

Have you tried pulling the stick on any of the other 3500hd's? Maybe they are all that way? Must have been a retrofit job, I was pretty sure those years were getrags

 

[GM Guy]

oh yeah she was a swap for sure, had a SM465 judging by the OEM master, elevated tranny tunnel, and pedals, but redrilled crossmember and NV4500. I am assuming the tranny is a 92 model.

 

[tanman_2006]

Small snag in tear down. The reverse bearing went out and welded itself to the main shaft, fairly common in high mile trannies (this one has been rebuilt many times so it shoulda been replaced recently). Heading to the machine shop in the AM to get it pressed apart. So far the gears themselves look great but the bottom of the tranny is full of sludge and shavings (big chunks). The way the reverse bearing is set up, it has a cage bearing and race that runs on the outside of it so when the bearing locks it is hard to notice but speeds up the wear and tear on other parts. you can see the bearing/race at the top of the gear assembly.

Questions are welcome

 

[tanman_2006]

oh yeah she was a swap for sure, had a SM465 judging by the OEM master, elevated tranny tunnel, and pedals, but redrilled crossmember and NV4500. I am assuming the tranny is a 92 model.

Sounds like a custom job to say the least. I did find some reading where they said NV4500's actually were first built starting in 1990 (or even a couple yrs earlier) so there could have been some different variations before GM and crysler started using them more a couple years later.

 

[tanman_2006]

Well the 1st gear locking snap ring bout kicked my @$$ yesterday. But I prevailed and am down to 2nd through 4th on the main shaft. I am only working on this a couple hours a day so 2 gears aday in decent progress for me lol.

I did get my hands down in the bottom of the case and there were some BIG shavings down there, so far I havent found any synchros with that kind of wear but I am fixing to get to the gears that gring this afternoon. I fired up the hotsy and a 5 gallon jug of 4:1 engine degreaser (4 parts water 1 part hotsy degreaser) and blasted the piss out of the case, after it dried i used some brake clean to get a few small crud deposits off, then sprayed it down with an oil mix to keep the bare cast iron case from getting rusty (not sure if that was needed but made me feel good to lube something up!)

I left the counter shaft in because it is still tighter than rebuild specs on end play and i figure it has a very good oil supply. My hard parts show some discoloring and slight wear from the 300K miles of abuse on the tranny but nothing that would leave me to believe it is in serious danger of gear failure.

I might try and get some eye candy for yall today.

If anyone knows of a good place to get Rebuild parts for a BW Tcase I would really appreciate some help on that. I haven't had much luck scaring up any kits.

Happy 4th to everyone!

 

[tanman_2006]

Looks like my synchro sleeves (part that rides on the shift forks and meets the synchros) might be chewed up. I cant find in my manual what the wear specs are so I will have to get ahold of quad 4x4 in the AM and get see if they can tell me what is usable. Mine dont have measureable wear but you can see that the points on the sleeves are worn more one direction than another. The gear teeth on the inside are fine though. Doesnt show up in pics.

I have abunch of pics but I cant get my photobucket to upload, my hotspot internet is being slow lately.

 

[tanman_2006]

1st and reverse are unsynchroed on early models, 4th gear (1:1) also has more teeth on the early models than the lase models (translates to more contact surface in my books)

4th is on the couter shaft at the input side of the tranny. To the right in the next pic

5th gear shift mechanism, passes through the tranny case to the tail housing.

More pics to come but the computer is having trouble loading still.

Synchro teeth are visible on 2nd gear, the teeth on 1st are the same but there is not a synchro clutch buffer (same for reverse). Part of a synchro set is visible leaned on 3rd gear but the outer sleeve is off as well as the PITA springs that like to fly places.