No start 95 S

[packratt]

Looks like the computer is telling you what else is wrong. Make sure the glow plug system is also working. I would remove a glow plug, put in a pair of grounded vice grips, leave the engine harness plug on it and cycle the glow plugs with the ignition switch. Does it glow? Verify at least you got 12v on both banks with the glow plug (or WTS) light is on. If the glow plug system is working verify the ECM is getting a signal from the glow plug harness when the plugs are "on". Perhaps swap ECM's with the test truck.

As I posted a week ago, glows were tested. All glows were pulled and voltage applied. A couple were tested using the ignition key and factory glow plug wire by removing, grounding and turning key on. All glow plugs are working.

After getting the glow plug relay and brake switch codes the codes were cleared and currently have no codes after additional starting attempts.

Block heater work? I have had luck in Colorado winter weather to get a 6.2 started without glows just on the block heater.

When I have to start plugging the truck in when it is 50-60 outside, I'll quit doing anything with diesels. That being said, I did try plugging in a couple weeks ago when it was cold. Didn't make any difference. I didn't hear any of the typical block heater sizzle but I didn't check resistance through the heater.

Without looking at a schematic is there anything related to the brake switch and glow plug relay? Still acts like a rub through short somewhere.

I'll check but I can't think of any reason why either would disable start.

 

[packratt]

At some Point, you must draw a Line...

Try an ECM from a Buddy or a Car that runs...

Otherwise...

Throw everything out... IP and ECM...


Good Luck...
Gunar

I'm almost to that point.

Unfortunately I don't have a spare ECM chip. Have a stock 98 box and a 98 Kojo box but that won't work in a 95. If I had one, I'd have tried it long ago.

I need to pull the oil filler tube and check that the IP key hasn't sheared.

 

[jrsavoie]

I am befuddled. I thought you would find that you were not getting juice back from the PMD. I am assuming you checked voltages at the place the PMD extension plugs into.

Did you also check at the end of the extension harness where it plugs into the PMD?

Sorry about the harness not working. I could have swore that was the harness I used on my 1994 K3500.

I haven't got out to see if I have a similar harness for a Flight Systems PMD.

I think you have already tried cranking with a glow plug out to see if you are getting diesel mist out of the hole.

I think it's important to know if you are getting juice back to the IP from the PMD. Seems it would be good to know that for sure, one way or the other

 

[Will L.]

I think you need to forget everything done to this point and start at the beginning of the actual procedures. Jumping around like this it is easy to miss one step. I remember reading you had fuel out of the injectors, yet now your woriend the ip isn't turning? And still questioning electronics feeding ip?

 

[WarWagon]

I read that the GP codes were steady, my bad.

You have
1) Fuel
2) Glows
3) Cranking RPM

We are down to something mechanical. Loss of compression, busted crankshaft, and your idea of timing key sheared could come back to IP failure and perhaps bad fuel. (gasoline contaminated that you would smell and said you don't.) However not getting fire from WD-40 is starting to be the #1 clue. We have covered the 'unknown normal' lack of fuel return from the IP as possible 2nd clue.

I second the earlier suggestion(s) for a compression test.

 

[packratt]

I think you need to forget everything done to this point and start at the beginning of the actual procedures. Jumping around like this it is easy to miss one step. I remember reading you had fuel out of the injectors, yet now your woriend the ip isn't turning? And still questioning electronics feeding ip?

According to Dieselpro, if the key has sheared or partially sheared the IP can still be turning and injecting fuel but be out of time and doing this at the wrong moment. Eliminating this potential issue is what I was talking about checking by pulling the oil fill tube.

The first voltage at PMD numbers I posted were prior to cleaning grounds. The numbers I posted the other day were after grounds were cleaned and battery cables and battery cables were replaced. I was not getting a consistent voltage output from the PMD and was trying to get a longer crank time. I am getting output voltage from the PMD I can easily test with and the other PMD is basically new. I'm fairly certain the PMD and extension can be eliminated as being the issue.

 

[packratt]

I read that the GP codes were steady, my bad.

You have
1) Fuel
2) Glows
3) Cranking RPM

We are down to something mechanical. Loss of compression, busted crankshaft, and your idea of timing key sheared could come back to IP failure and perhaps bad fuel. (gasoline contaminated that you would smell and said you don't.) However not getting fire from WD-40 is starting to be the #1 clue. We have covered the 'unknown normal' lack of fuel return from the IP as possible 2nd clue.

I second the earlier suggestion(s) for a compression test.

According to DieselPro (IP rebuilder) amount of fuel in the return line when cranking means nothing.

Fuel contamination - I put the previous 4-5 tanks of fuel in. These were 25-30 gallon fill ups. The last tank of fuel was driven for 250 miles with no issues before the truck cut off and would not restart.

When the truck cut off, it was just like the key was turned off. No strange noises, rattles, etc.

Busted crankshaft - have puffs of WD-40/fuel coming from 4 cylinders.

Loss of compression - no symptoms of compression issues prior to shutting truck of and restarting 5 min later. Truck had plenty of power. Not using oil or anti-freeze. No hard radiator hose. Weather and work permitting (doing this outside in an unlighted area) I will try to run a compression check late this week. Don't think it is a problem but will check to eliminate

 

[deejaaa]

i had a valve train come off of 2 cylinders but it at least still ran.

 

[Will L.]

Clear line on ip return.
You pull the glowplugs, use a remote starter button or have someone crank it for you and watch for fuel mist coming out the cyliders.

This tells you plainly you are getting fuel in the cylinders at a close enough time that this is or is not your issue. If your ip is off time enough to not start, it will not spray fuel out while cranking. The fuel will run down past the rings. If you get it out some cylinders but not at all, or anything wierd- you will know what's up right away.
Also glacing at the clear line through this lets you know aeration right away.

If all that looks good, then the compression tester.

There is 5,000 ways you can play around and test everything under the sun. Seriously if a guy in my shop spent 4 hours checking out a 6.5 and had not started this procedure, I would send him home the rest of the week with out pay. Diagnose it all in 1 hour start to finish.

Talented guys can chase the electrons problems for a week sometimes, but fuel spray out the cylinders ends all that really quick. No fuel, then pull the lines off the injectors and see if it is getting to the injectors at all. If not, then and only then do you start looking at is the pump turning or electrical to it.

It is possible a sheared ip drive could let it slip timing, but I have never seen it. Usually a sheared key is a locked up ip which would result of in zero fuel at any injector.

I feel for you, when aythong drags out it gets frustrating. Good luck.

 

[packratt]

To eliminate backtracking in the thread I'm going to restate the problem and what has been done to date.

250 miles into a trip shut the truck off for about 5 minutes. Truck immediately restarted and ran for about 30 seconds before it cut off and would not restart.

2. Year of truck/engine.
95 6.5 NON-TURBO
3. Odometer reading (indicate miles or kilometers).
~175000
4. Indicate the model number on the Injection pump (starts DS4 or DB2......).
DS4
5. Indicate if you know if it’s a 1500, 2500, 2500HD, 3500, 3500HD.
1500
6. Do you have an EGR on the engine? (An F or an S engine code 8th VIN digit)
EGR removed by PO. vacuum switch connected w/o vacuum other switches removed and wires jumpered. Had to
clear numerous EGR codes.
7. Air Filter condition (visual check).
good
8. Fuel filter condition (freshly changed, mileage since changed).
good unknown mileage but getting good fuel pressure and flow through it.
9. Location of PMD/FSD? (ex. on pump/remote over intake, behind bumper).
behind bumper
9a. If remote mounted, describe wiring harness (homemade or purchased from which vendor).
looks purchased
9b. Indicate the location and condition of the FSD/IP grounding wire.
good condition on IP
10. Outside Temperature (C or F). _____ °
low to mid 40s F when occurred have tried starting when in low 60's
11. Service Engine Light while running?- on/off/intermittent
intermittent
11a. Service Engine light does glow during start/cranking/bulb check: Yes/No
yes
12.Have you scanned for engine codes? Yes/No
yes
12a. List exact results on engine codes.
listed above. First set unknown how many were old (existing before incident) currently no codes after clearing
13. Condition of Battery terminals (removed, cleaned and tightened).
New New battery cables 2/0 main pos and neg 4awg to alt, junction box, and fender grounds added cable from alt
to second battery
14. Known condition and age of Batteries.
new
14a. Are batteries a matched set of same age?
15. Condition of Major Grounds (removed, cleaned and tightened)
removed, cleaned, tightened
15a Have the batteries been individually load tested?
Yes
16. Does engine crank, or "turn over"?
yes
16a. Does engine start and run?
no
17. If engine does not start- Crack injector line: do you have fuel? Yes/No
yes
18. Does your Wait To Start light come on?
yes
18a.Number of seconds WTS light is lit.
varies
19. Engine Cranking speed (if you have an accurate tachometer).
think ive seen it 800-1000 rpm
20. Are you experiencing Stalling?
no
20a. Describe the event (upon startup only, down the road, hit a bump, etc...)
see above
20b. Do you notice loss of dash or instruments?
no
21. Check turbo inlet and air filter for obstructions.
clear
22. In a no-hot start, pour a bottle of room-temp water on the injection pump. Does it start now?
no staret hot or cold
23. Lift pump test - Describe results.
16oz in 40 sec at drain 9 psi at IP


Answers for 24-26 were from when truck would start
24. Upon cold start, does the radiator hose get hard quickly? Yes/No
no
25. Upon cold start, do you have excessive white smoke? Yes/No
no
26. Do you have excessive cranking time before the engine starts? Yes/No
no
27. Have you used the block heater? Does it affect engine starting? (only try for starting problems).
Yes, once during diagnostics no affect
28. Are all glow plugs in proper working order?
Yes, all plugs pulled and bench tested. A couple were tested hooked to wiring harness and worked properly.

Answers for 24-26 were from when truck would start
29. During hard acceleration, do you have excessive black smoke? Yes/No
no
30. Do you have any unusual exhaust smoke issues?
no
31. Turbo check out - Pass/Fail
NON TURBO TRUCK
32. Indicate fuel that you are using: Bio-Diesel, #2 Diesel, SVO/WVO, other
#2 diesel
32a. If running Veggie Oil fuel setup, indicate details of your conversion (homemade or packaged system).
N/A
33. Are you using any fuel additives? If so, please list.
no
34. Upon unscrewing fuel cap, do you have a large vacuum formed in the tank? Yes/No
no
35. Do you have any service history available that might pertain to the problem you are having?
NO
36. Please indicate any modifications to the vehicle that might help us diagnose better.
Humvee intake, EGR removed, PMD relocated


DIAGNOSTICS PERFORMED
backup pmd installed at IP
voltages tested at PMD attached to extension cable good
FSO swapped
grounds cleaned
batteries replaced
battery cables replaced
glow plugs pulled and tested
glow plug harness tested
ignition switch replaced
lift pump jumpered during all testing
lift pump producing fuel
IP return line blown clean
swapped fuel relay
installed clear IP return line - no bubbles

 

[packratt]

Clear line on ip return.
You pull the glowplugs, use a remote starter button or have someone crank it for you and watch for fuel mist coming out the cyliders.

This tells you plainly you are getting fuel in the cylinders at a close enough time that this is or is not your issue. If your ip is off time enough to not start, it will not spray fuel out while cranking. The fuel will run down past the rings. If you get it out some cylinders but not at all, or anything wierd- you will know what's up right away.
Also glacing at the clear line through this lets you know aeration right away.

I had someone turning the key when I checked for mist. I pulled the 4 DS glows and held my hand in front of one of the cylinders. I believe I was smelling diesel over the odor of WD40.

When I pull all of the glows to test compression I will redo this test. I may even blow the cylinders out one evening, recharge the batteries and let my sinuses clear from the odor of WD40 and retest for fuel vapor the next evening before I do the comp test.

 

[Will L.]

No need to hold hand over anything. Stand there and watch from the front of the engine as it spins. You will see it shooting out. If you can not see the spray from all cylinders- it is obvious.

 

[packratt]

When all I could smell was WD40 from the initial sprays, I had to try and capture some of the spray from later cranks and get it closer to my nose.

 

[WarWagon]

No need to hold hand over anything. Stand there and watch from the front of the engine as it spins. You will see it shooting out. If you can not see the spray from all cylinders- it is obvious.

Firing injectors while cranking should look something like this. (fire isn't the right word. ) Don't even think of putting your hand by the glow plug hole while cranking.

 

[Will L.]

Yup- just like that. Obvious.
Here is one the camera angle is low and less fuel than you should have because this is a non turbo 6.2
Notice how much fuel mist is in the air.
YES IT IS FLAMMABLE!!! A cigarette or spark will light that off.

 

[jrsavoie]

Yup- just like that. Obvious.
Here is one the camera angle is low and less fuel than you should have because this is a non turbo 6.2
Notice how much fuel mist is in the air.
YES IT IS FLAMMABLE!!! A cigarette or spark will light that off.

Might be a good way to sell my Jeep

 

[Husker6.5]

Time for the Ether Bunny? Just make damn sure you do it WITHOUT cycling the glowplugs on!

 

[Will L.]

Sell the jeep? To the insurance co.?

Ether bunny!!!
Here comes Diesel Cobustion tail...
Spray it down the intake rail...
Hippity hoppity parts are blown to hell.

 

[Husker6.5]

You can start a cold 6.5 with ether, as long as the glow plugs are left off (or are burned out) by cranking directly without pausing to wait on the Wait To Start light. I had to do that with my 'Burb I bought in North Carolina in December on the drive back to Lincoln each morning because their lot boy ran the batteries dead trying to start it without waiting for the glows, then put it on their big-ass 500 amp charger on Jump Start and fried out the glow plugs when he realized what the WTS light meant - all before I had arrived at the lot and in defiance of my request of them previous to my arrival that I do the cold start on it - so the next two 20°F mornings at the motels I stopped at on the drive back it was ether cold starts until I got back home and slapped a set of Duraterms into it.

 

[Will L.]

You can. Best to unplug the connector to the controller. But have someone crank it while you very lightly spray. The ether will fill the precup, and i have seen it where even with no glowplugs the precup blew out of the head and caved into the block. It cracks the head where the precup gets blown out and dimples the block leaving them both as scrap metal.
So many people just go to starting fluid becasue it is what was used on big rigs for years, not remembering most of them had 2 strokes and blowers not 4 strokes and turbos.
If you guys haven't seen precup dimple blocks, you might search it- its a game ender.
Di diesels can get away with it better- that precup really doesnt like it. Your better to put gasoline in a spray bottle than ether if wd40 or the like doesn't get it for you.