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My oil pan just blew up

DieselAmateur

Diesel or Bust
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Location
Upstate NY
Thread starter #21
Thanks for the tip on the starter. Extra RPMs will definitely help in this cold climate.

Appreciate the confirmation on the sensors. Sure is tricky with 1 and 2 wires types out there.

My bad on saying the sensor is in the block, not head :oops:. As my name implies I am merely a beginner and have only learned about these engines through forums and the many things going wrong on my own engines. Pretty soon with all the problems I've had I may graduate from amateur to novice!

My crankshaft position sensor looks all kinds of gummed up, initially didn't think I could re-use it. Heard lots of stories about the plastic breaking when trying to remove. Any word out there on whether new ones are good units?
 

Will L.

Well-Known Member
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#22
Fyi, all info is sent with helpful intent, and never to say someone doesn’t know what’s up. Better to share tmi, imo. M-o-u-s-eeeee

The best sensors have proven to be AC Delco. I would remove engine, and then take out sensors. Atf/ acetone at 50/50 mix is amazing at removing stuck components way better than wd40, kryoil, or the like.

I would reuse the old sensors, but if you want all new- nothing bad there.

Check with Chris of @Twisted Steel Performance as I think he might have the hookup on the powermaster starter.

Are you going in with the p400 all stock or doing some of the upgrades like head work, coatings, better rings, better timing gear, etc.?
 

DieselAmateur

Diesel or Bust
Messages
23
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21
Location
Upstate NY
Thread starter #23
Thanks Will, I know all is said with good intent. I just specialize in self- deprecation :D Thanks for the tip on atf/ acetone, PB blaster has been my go to for most things stuck. Acetone is one hell of a cleaner.

With the p400, I wish I had more time and money for coatings and the like. I don't know/ trust anyone where I live who does coatings, and even if there was someone it would probably be out of my budget.

So far my bill for this build is a little under 3k, which includes a new ps pump & hoses, 4" exhaust, new exhaust manifolds & gaskets, starter, intercooler, etc. Doesn't include a new turbo which will run over 1k, and who knows what else will come up!

I've read up a decent bit on head porting, but iirc some thread concluded that the pre-cup design of idi heads limits what can be done and the advantages may be minimal. If I had the funds, I'd send my p400 to Twisted Steel in a heartbeat.

I would like to get some feedback on what folks think of gapless rings. At one point in time I thought of studding the heads if I was removing them to put in gapless 2nd rings, but was also advised that studs have a higher chance of coolant leakage. I know there is the method of drilling out space for rubber gaskets when putting in studs, but I don't want to drill out anything I don't have to. I bought this p400 to be my last truck engine ever, forgive me if I sound like a paranoid parent :shame:

I do plan on installing a fluidampr. I thought about timing gears, but don't know enough about the pros/ cons of gears vs chains. I know the p400 is a stout engine, but to me a chain seems like a safer option should anything seize on the top or bottom end. I could be totally wrong, and will happily defer to the experts.

I am hoping for a larger turbo, which will necessitate an intercooler and the peninsular intake. Chris at Unique Diesel sells a Peninsular towing trubo that is non wastegated, which is attractive for deleting the vacuum system. I have also been in touch with him about a custom Holset HX40II spec'd out by Chris @ Twisted Steel Performance, which will absolutely need an intercooler.

My biggest concern with building up the engine is the capacity of my manual transmission to handle the power. Despite the annoying gear ratios of the NV4500 I have only driven manuals my entire life. They are incredibly useful up here in the winter for slowing down via downshifting in slippery conditions. The NV4500 can't handle much more than 600 ft/ lbs of torque, so I'm not sure what HP that translates too. A big reason why I was holding off on the build was my plan to rebuild my spare 1999 nv4500 with the 1-3/8" input shaft that was put behind Dodge trucks running the 12v cummins. My current trans had a new bearing kit put in it a year and a half ago, but I really wanted the built p400 to be mated to a built transmission.

My ideal range is 300-325 hp. I had a friend with a 2005 cummins diesel tow my 3.5 ton mini excavator like it wasn't even there, and if I could replicate that level of performance I would be oh so happy.

Looks like I should start my build thread soon even if it takes a month and a half for an oil pan to get here. I'd love to have discussions like this ongoing throughout the process, as I have learned so much from folks doing the same in the past.
 

Twisted Steel Performance

Formerly: sctrailrider
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#24
My opinion for what it's worth is this...

With your limited funds and time along with somewhat unclear knowledge of details to "build" a performance motor, I would recommend leaving the motor alone. Yes a different turbo will be a good idea performance wise along with a charge air cooler. Keep the boost in the 15psi or less range and no need for studs.. just remember you do NOT have a 18:1 compression motor but a 21:1, therefor the more boost psi you try and pack into the cylinders the more stress you are putting on things for marginal gains in power.

Yes gapless rings would be a benefit, but not if a person is unsure of their ability to take everything apart and put it back correctly...

Yes head work does have benefits, those that say otherwise.. well I'll just let people think what they want about that area, the same thing was & is said about coatings by people who don't know better..

If you want a life long motor, invest in a bypass oil system, the best oil on the market, send in oil samples every oil change, keep it running cool, use a new oil cooler & lines, use Evans waterless coolant & a zero psi cap, a good clean radiator, just to list a few...

If coating bearings & such isn't going to happen, the TriboDyn oil I sell has some of the same ingredients the coatings have and is the next best thing. What ever oil you use keep it clean and cool when towing..

Glad you were thinking ahead a few months ago and have a good one about ready, thanks for the purchase you will like it..
 

Will L.

Well-Known Member
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Boulder City Nv
#25
I would say doing the timing gears now is more important than the balancer. Because you will safely get 100,000 miles out of the one that comes on it. —When you change the balancer, do Leroy’s solid belt drive at the same time for the $150ish iirc. The $425 for balancer saved now is better spent while the engine is out of the truck.

I still have not seen actual hp/ tq or mpg numbers on roller rockers. I would say wait on those if you have to. Plenty of stock rokers crushing a quarter million miles.

The timing gears prove to make the injection pump last longer by the simple comparison of GM db2 life vs Ford db2 life. Then the timing not going retarded starting at 30,000 miles will keep it running etter and slight mpg improvement.
Even with ds4, the first 100,000 miles the komputer can adjust for it but runs out of the ability to do as much long term.

If you choose to leave the rest of the long block untouched, I get it. And don’t feel bad about the head bolts ve studs thing.
I dont think it is a bad idea to run tty bolt, provided they are quality and not being pushed for really high numbers.
Keep boost numbers in safe range for now and the better breathing turbo and exhaust gets the nod for safer power and mpg later if needed.

@Twisted Steel Performance p400 @ 21:1? I thought all GEP was lower?
 

Will L.

Well-Known Member
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#29
Ya, I could be off. I could swear that the optimizers dropped the compression down there or at least close to it. Ever since I bought mine, and my paperwork from my engine when I bought it and talked to gep about it is stored away.

That’s why I asked about the p400 compression, i was under the impression it dropped way down for optimizers and stayed for p400.
 

DieselAmateur

Diesel or Bust
Messages
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Location
Upstate NY
Thread starter #32
I would say doing the timing gears now is more important than the balancer. Because you will safely get 100,000 miles out of the one that comes on it. —When you change the balancer, do Leroy’s solid belt drive at the same time for the $150ish iirc. The $425 for balancer saved now is better spent while the engine is out of the truck.

I still have not seen actual hp/ tq or mpg numbers on roller rockers. I would say wait on those if you have to. Plenty of stock rokers crushing a quarter million miles.

The timing gears prove to make the injection pump last longer by the simple comparison of GM db2 life vs Ford db2 life. Then the timing not going retarded starting at 30,000 miles will keep it running etter and slight mpg improvement.
Even with ds4, the first 100,000 miles the komputer can adjust for it but runs out of the ability to do as much long term.

If you choose to leave the rest of the long block untouched, I get it. And don’t feel bad about the head bolts ve studs thing.
I dont think it is a bad idea to run tty bolt, provided they are quality and not being pushed for really high numbers.
Keep boost numbers in safe range for now and the better breathing turbo and exhaust gets the nod for safer power and mpg later if needed.

@Twisted Steel Performance p400 @ 21:1? I thought all GEP was lower?
Appreciate your perspective. The timing gears and balancer cost pretty much the same, so its kind of a wash there price wise. Can you change the balancer with the engine mounted, or does it necessitate pulling the entire rad and core support? My goal is to do as much as I can now that will just be a PITA later...

also, what is leroy's solid belt drive?

I would like at the very least to do gapless second rings, which means I have to pull the heads. I'm thinking that If I'm removing the pistons, I may as well send them to @ Twisted Steel Performance for coating. May as well get them machined down to 18:1 as well while they're out.

Which then necessitates the million dollar question: If pulling the heads to remove pistons, do I install studs? If it can be safely done without drilling out space for rubber gaskets I'd do it, but remain paranoid about leaking coolant...Plus, where can I get p400 quality TTY bolts?

Probably a good thing that it will take a while for the custom pan to get here, gives me more time to bring in some extra $$$
 

Twisted Steel Performance

Formerly: sctrailrider
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#34
Appreciate your perspective. The timing gears and balancer cost pretty much the same, so its kind of a wash there price wise. Can you change the balancer with the engine mounted, or does it necessitate pulling the entire rad and core support? My goal is to do as much as I can now that will just be a PITA later... Yes balancer can be done later gears need to be done while on a stand.

also, what is leroy's solid belt drive? Their are several instances of fitment issues both here and other places, GM made them with rubber for a reason..

I would like at the very least to do gapless second rings, which means I have to pull the heads. I'm thinking that If I'm removing the pistons, I may as well send them to @ Twisted Steel Performance for coating. May as well get them machined down to 18:1 as well while they're out.

Which then necessitates the million dollar question: If pulling the heads to remove pistons, do I install studs? If it can be safely done without drilling out space for rubber gaskets I'd do it, but remain paranoid about leaking coolant...Plus, where can I get p400 quality TTY bolts? If you use "the right stuff" sealant, AND Evans coolant with a zero psi cap you would be safe. The trouble is water gets pushed past the threads top & bottom, with zero coolant psi much less chance of coolant getting pushed past the threads.

Probably a good thing that it will take a while for the custom pan to get here, gives me more time to bring in some extra $$$
 

Will L.

Well-Known Member
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#35
The solid belt drive as I poorly described it, is a billet crankshaft pulley. I couldn’t think of the proper term, sorry.
http://leroydiesel.com/products/billet-crankshaft-pulley/

In the class they told us always change the balancer and the pulley at same time because the rubber deteriorates on both and both could be responsible for lower end problems possibly. They were recommending 125,000 mile intervals, but we learned in the fleet to do them at 100,000 miles. That 100,000 mile number seems repeated on every forum I have seen also. So to me, do both at one time, then you are good to go forever. Someone here said fluiddampr says 500,000 miles for their damper, but I’ll be dead before my Hummer hits that, so to me that’s forever. Haha

Yes you can change it inplace. It is of course much easier on the stand, and maybe you could sell the new take off balancer/ belt drive for some cash to offset. You can run just fluiddampr andreplace the belt drive pulley each 100,000 miles still.

Can Chris or Leroy order new tty headbolts from gep?
Then use them instead of studs. Many guys stand by tty strongly, they just don’t speak up here all the time. John that owns Unique Diesel and now Peninsular too- he is a tty bolt instead of studs guy just because of the leak issue. I am really torn about it for my next build in my hummer. I don’t ever want to crack the engine open again after this time. I still have a set of tty VictorReinz on my shelf.

There are felpro and VictorReinze. I used victor’s tty on many rebuilds with zero issues. I love the security of the studs, but on rigs I can’t easily get back into- I use tty bolts.

The oring fix is a really creative idea. I just am not sure I want to trust that many orings that are in direct contact with the heat of the head. Over the years working on equipment, I have seen orings fail from heat without the components ever having been apart.

In racing, everyone uses blue locktite and spins the arp’s in with a zip gun. They dont crank them down but they all get maybe up to 20# on them spinning in. Everyone has learned the arp sealant is crap and tomuse blue loctite. Way back before arp did the set for this engine, I was having them made at the machine shop. And we liberally coated in blue and used a 3/8 impact spinning them in- just like we were doing on the nitromethane dragsters. Never letting them sit loose in the block. I know the arp instructions, but sorry they are wrong. Somebody search youtube- there has to be video of nitro engines being done by the top dragster teams out there somewhere. Glance through pics looking for the twin mags to recognize it.

Now the problem is, nitromethane engines and coolant leaks? Haha- and my 6.5 hot rodded engines really never got tested for long term- so I cant say 100%. But I have put and been around tons of builders that run arp studs in wet holes for street use rigs. Around here we all use blue & snug technique without failing. But even at that it is a legitimate concern.

@Twisted Steel Performance Is Evans coolant is a safer bet because not water based so leaking into the engine and bearings not as damaging the theory to help with studs? Or just the normal advantages of evans? I really wish I could bring myself to using it- if I had the room for a heat exchanger to keep it out of the cabin from the heatercores, I would run it.
 

Twisted Steel Performance

Formerly: sctrailrider
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#36
I prefer Evans for several reasons, the 0 psi is a good one concerning studs, their is not any pressure pushing coolant so less worrys of coolant getting pushed past threads... the o-ring deal, well the o-ring still sits on the top threads of the stud not the smooth portion so their is still the chance coolant will pass..
I will use studs IF I'm the one building the motor, I have come up with a way I feel is safer and more sure but requires a small bit of machining.. but for the average person I would reccomend TTY bolts...
 

Twisted Steel Performance

Formerly: sctrailrider
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#38
LOL, I don't have any pics or video to show but I will try and explain..

Chamfer (45*) the bolt holes in the block & head mating surface a bit ( about 1/8" deep), spray the HG with high temp copper coat and install on block. Apply "the right stuff" on the threads going into the block, screw the studs into the block, do not wipe the excess off, let it stay around the stud & gasket, install the head, tork down in 3 steps.

What I'm doing is allowing the sealant to pile up around the stud where the gasket-block-head mate, not a lot just enough to form a tight "o-ring" effect sealing the threads, when everything is squeezed tight it gives a good tough seal. I don't have so much excess that it causes problems with the gasket or moves very far away from the studs.. I've done this several times and not a single leak... it will be a little more trouble getting the head to break loose if needed but between the copper coat & sealant no blown gaskets or leaky studs so far...
 

JayTheCPA

Well-Known Member
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Annapolis, MD
#39
While you are building the replacement block, consider installing a second ECT sensor in the other head (above #8) *AND* at least run a wire to it. Reasoning is that you can use this location as a cross-check in case the other one fails or a duplicate to make sure cooling is good across the whole motor.

But if you decide to add the probe and / or wires after the motor is back in the engine bay, it is a *huge* PITA to add them.


Toward waterless and a zero pressure cap, FWIW Evans has backed-away from that guidance and last I checked with them (about a year ago), called for use of a normal pressurized cap. Reasoning was that the coolant attracted water, and water did not play well with the coolant. As a bonus, Evans does *free* analysis of their coolant.

Even with Evan's reversal on the zero pressure, I still have the zero pressure caps as they are good temporary solution when something leaks and I cannot immediately fix it.


X-2 on the oil bypass (dual filter) system.
 

3bals

Active Member
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159
Location
Minnesota
#40
On the oil pan. I got mine from Leroy, but if he can't, try Heath. I was going to get one from Bill, but he couldn't get to me in the time frame I wanted. Although, I still have the custom one that came from Matt at Peninsular and I think Jay has one too.
 
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