Twisted Steel Performance
Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
His radiator has a Thermal Dispersant coating.... it does remove more heat than a bare aluminum unit will..
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Looking for some help
- Thread starter ak diesel driver
- Start date
FellowTraveler
Well-Known Member
So it is not incorrect to say this coating does the same thing as EVANS waterless coolant does but in a different way pulling more heat.
In my adventure with EVANS in my 99 6.5td I found that sealing all the gaps all around the radiator this allowed more flow through the radiator core big difference.
There are two (1 on each fender) rear upper inner fender vents openings the most upper area where hood hinges are under hood hot air flows through these exiting the gap between the fender and the leading edge of the front doors. I added vents in the outer fenders with tabs on leading edge to create vortices' to aid pulling air out while in motion and allowing massive hot air flow at idle and slower speeds too yes a little extreme but it helped.
I had incorporated vents on the hood just behind the radiator shroud "this is the critical location" that allowed a massive amount of hot air to exit from under hood at all speeds however; most of the air when motion comes out the passenger side of this vent system because of cooling fan rotation. IMO this is your best option along with sealing all gaps around the radiator.
In my adventure with EVANS in my 99 6.5td I found that sealing all the gaps all around the radiator this allowed more flow through the radiator core big difference.
There are two (1 on each fender) rear upper inner fender vents openings the most upper area where hood hinges are under hood hot air flows through these exiting the gap between the fender and the leading edge of the front doors. I added vents in the outer fenders with tabs on leading edge to create vortices' to aid pulling air out while in motion and allowing massive hot air flow at idle and slower speeds too yes a little extreme but it helped.
I had incorporated vents on the hood just behind the radiator shroud "this is the critical location" that allowed a massive amount of hot air to exit from under hood at all speeds however; most of the air when motion comes out the passenger side of this vent system because of cooling fan rotation. IMO this is your best option along with sealing all gaps around the radiator.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
I'm not having any issues while running only the heat soak after shut down
MrMarty51
Well-Known Member
A friend of the 6.5 community recommended this ALDL adapter for Me. It is the Autel AP200 series unit and comes with one vehicle app, other vehicles can be bought for not much money. 25 bucks or so. Unit price is just under 70 bucks.
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Will L.
Well-Known Member
@FellowTraveler to do detail, we should be on a different thread to not sidetrack his help thread. If you desire to hit all the pro/con we should start that thread and just edit a link to there from here.
Does Evans do same thing?
No. Opposite in fact. Evans is less thermally conductive than normal coolant. It takes longer to get the heat from the engine into the coolant. Longer from coolant into radiator. The same engine with evans in it will get to operating temperature sooner, but show less heat because it is slower to conduct that heat. The advantages of Evans is the overheat temp is much higher than conventional coolant. At 280 conventional is spewing out, and Evans is good until 375 iirc. The 6.5 issue is the rear two cylinders get to 220 and the metal expands enough to cause the walls to tighten the gap against the pistons. It doesn’t matter if you use Concrete in the block. Metal expands at a certain rate, and at 220, theadded wear starts happening on this engine. Other engines might not have interference issues until 400f, but you hit 350 in a 6.5 and it is destroyed- even though you technically never overheated. But that isn’t direct to the question, so back on track.
Having a coated radiator with evans would be good because it will get it back towards how fast the heat gets rejected.
here I go more on track to Les’ question.
The coating on the radiator makes it More thermally conductive so it sheds heat faster. More overall heat per minute comes out of the engine through coolant, radiator and into the air under the hood. That means more heat onto the outside of the ip which could warm the ip more which is his concern, since the thermostat is going to keep temps up at his predetermined level- 195 I am guessing.
But now underhood heat is say 5 degrees hotter. So now does the higher ambient temp create the issue?
Heads up testing would have to be done to show if a better radiator can heat it more- and at first though instinct is to say yes- but my money would be No. Why? Because the engine is already 195. The crossover, the heads, the timing cover it is mounted to action as a heat hiway are all at 195. Law# 2 thermodynamics says heat always goes to cold not the other way around. So the coldest thing is he fuel in the highly conductive aluminum ip, via the aluminum timing cover from the iron block and heads.
Air is a far less conducive medium than any of the metals.
So majority of the heat is from the physical contacted metal.
What is the temperature of the air? Less than 195. E=mc2 says you loose energy at every state of transition. So junky explication is 195 at stat, 194 at radiator, 193 at air. If the mean temperature is obtained at ip, the air blowing across it is less than the ajoined temperature.
Why hotter when it shuts off then? Think of it as 300 degree potential in the engine, but kept down by loss of heat going out radiator air and creating global warming (like how they trained me to fit that in? Haha). But the coolant stops pumping and fan stops turning so the heat stops leaving. That 300 heat soaks out (of the heads mainly) into the rest of the engine. Where is the coldest part of the engine? Fuel. (Why does heat soak kill factory pmd- because it would cook them after shutdown).
Opening the hood allows the heat to rise and escape the engine rather than insulting and keeping it there. The hot air rises and creates a very small air flow from under the engine across it and away rather than trapping a hot air pocket against the hood like a hot air balloon. Thats how hood louvers help in hotrods that cant push enough air out the bottom. That air flow also allows air flow to draw more heat from the radiator.
If you had an electric fan, and a small electric waterpump in the coolant system, it could run after shutdown and would eliminate the heat soak issues to the fuel. Too much effort for too little reward- but it was done in racing, We had to on some of drag cars including the alcohol rail.
My issue to this whole line of thinking the problem is underhood heat is: with 13psi into a brand new ip- the engine should start at 300f providing it can crank fast enough. Obviously not seeing those temps so ignore the engine temp and focus on fuel temp. Either that or the last two used ip and this brand new ip all have worn head/rotor -which I doubt.
Assuming the hot fuel is the no start issue:
The problem only happens on winter blend fuel.
The heat is enough to thin the already thinner fuel beyond tolerance.
The fuel temp is reading high. Is there that much heat to raise the entire tank of fuel? No way! Pull a sample from tank and stick your finger in it. The fuel is getting hot in ffm, ip, or both. IF the main heat source is the ip from engine heat, it has to be heating the entire tank to be read that hot at the ffm where the sensor is. That is CRAZY to much energy that needs to be created to heat up that much fuel even if you always had 1/4 tank or less.
The heat has to be coming from the ffm heater is my only option I am left with.
Does Evans do same thing?
No. Opposite in fact. Evans is less thermally conductive than normal coolant. It takes longer to get the heat from the engine into the coolant. Longer from coolant into radiator. The same engine with evans in it will get to operating temperature sooner, but show less heat because it is slower to conduct that heat. The advantages of Evans is the overheat temp is much higher than conventional coolant. At 280 conventional is spewing out, and Evans is good until 375 iirc. The 6.5 issue is the rear two cylinders get to 220 and the metal expands enough to cause the walls to tighten the gap against the pistons. It doesn’t matter if you use Concrete in the block. Metal expands at a certain rate, and at 220, theadded wear starts happening on this engine. Other engines might not have interference issues until 400f, but you hit 350 in a 6.5 and it is destroyed- even though you technically never overheated. But that isn’t direct to the question, so back on track.
Having a coated radiator with evans would be good because it will get it back towards how fast the heat gets rejected.
here I go more on track to Les’ question.
The coating on the radiator makes it More thermally conductive so it sheds heat faster. More overall heat per minute comes out of the engine through coolant, radiator and into the air under the hood. That means more heat onto the outside of the ip which could warm the ip more which is his concern, since the thermostat is going to keep temps up at his predetermined level- 195 I am guessing.
But now underhood heat is say 5 degrees hotter. So now does the higher ambient temp create the issue?
Heads up testing would have to be done to show if a better radiator can heat it more- and at first though instinct is to say yes- but my money would be No. Why? Because the engine is already 195. The crossover, the heads, the timing cover it is mounted to action as a heat hiway are all at 195. Law# 2 thermodynamics says heat always goes to cold not the other way around. So the coldest thing is he fuel in the highly conductive aluminum ip, via the aluminum timing cover from the iron block and heads.
Air is a far less conducive medium than any of the metals.
So majority of the heat is from the physical contacted metal.
What is the temperature of the air? Less than 195. E=mc2 says you loose energy at every state of transition. So junky explication is 195 at stat, 194 at radiator, 193 at air. If the mean temperature is obtained at ip, the air blowing across it is less than the ajoined temperature.
Why hotter when it shuts off then? Think of it as 300 degree potential in the engine, but kept down by loss of heat going out radiator air and creating global warming (like how they trained me to fit that in? Haha). But the coolant stops pumping and fan stops turning so the heat stops leaving. That 300 heat soaks out (of the heads mainly) into the rest of the engine. Where is the coldest part of the engine? Fuel. (Why does heat soak kill factory pmd- because it would cook them after shutdown).
Opening the hood allows the heat to rise and escape the engine rather than insulting and keeping it there. The hot air rises and creates a very small air flow from under the engine across it and away rather than trapping a hot air pocket against the hood like a hot air balloon. Thats how hood louvers help in hotrods that cant push enough air out the bottom. That air flow also allows air flow to draw more heat from the radiator.
If you had an electric fan, and a small electric waterpump in the coolant system, it could run after shutdown and would eliminate the heat soak issues to the fuel. Too much effort for too little reward- but it was done in racing, We had to on some of drag cars including the alcohol rail.
My issue to this whole line of thinking the problem is underhood heat is: with 13psi into a brand new ip- the engine should start at 300f providing it can crank fast enough. Obviously not seeing those temps so ignore the engine temp and focus on fuel temp. Either that or the last two used ip and this brand new ip all have worn head/rotor -which I doubt.
Assuming the hot fuel is the no start issue:
The problem only happens on winter blend fuel.
The heat is enough to thin the already thinner fuel beyond tolerance.
The fuel temp is reading high. Is there that much heat to raise the entire tank of fuel? No way! Pull a sample from tank and stick your finger in it. The fuel is getting hot in ffm, ip, or both. IF the main heat source is the ip from engine heat, it has to be heating the entire tank to be read that hot at the ffm where the sensor is. That is CRAZY to much energy that needs to be created to heat up that much fuel even if you always had 1/4 tank or less.
The heat has to be coming from the ffm heater is my only option I am left with.
Try some injectors set to the stock pop PSI.
Although my "after" experience is on an engine that "lost compression" it was easier to start with lower pop PSI. Offhand I think I was running ~2250. Before the run-away bent the valves I had (5) five DB2 IP's sitting on the bench at one point with the damn hi pop injectors over hard starting problems. This includes 1/4" turn on the pump from the "Line to Line" timing marks just to keep the white smoke down after start up. I would have saved a LOT of misery swapping usable IP's if I had run stock POP PSI injectors!
Used IP's... The Known Known of a built Moose IP also having trouble was pretty clear the injectors were the trouble all along.
The stock setting injectors on the 1992 project and it's turnkey startup is a GLARING example that the fuel or whatever has changed to where the hi-pop injectors cause more trouble than they are worth, now. Maybe if the pump builder built the pump exclusively for 2200 PSI pop pressure it would be a different story. I do not know of anyone doing so at this time.
The higher pressure the pump has to build to POP the injector to get fuel flowing the more internal leakage in the pump. Acts just like a worn head and rotor due to higher internal leakage with thin hot fuel at low starter RPM... Thin #1 winter fuel at high temp ... I could hardly get #2 to start on what you would consider a summer day during our winter.
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Will L.
Well-Known Member
If you have another set of injectors, set them low and try it is investment of time but could show if that is the issue. I dont think so, here’s why. The pressure is at 2200. When Jay tested his brand new injectors from Leroy, they were at 2175. ALL 8 on the money, as Jay doesn’t stutter! Haha
Bosch said they have a 200 psi + or - variation specification. So going up 25 psi should have no issue.
I know the original specs back from 80’s and 90’s- and with the REAL diesel we could push pressure more than with the new fuel. And higher pop pressure can make harder starts, yes. But if he were to buy a new set, that 25psi lower he might get or the new set may be higher- not worth it imo.
Next is are these the 303, 311, or what? If they are higher flow, it’s designed to get same volume at 250 higher pressure iirc.
Bosch said they have a 200 psi + or - variation specification. So going up 25 psi should have no issue.
I know the original specs back from 80’s and 90’s- and with the REAL diesel we could push pressure more than with the new fuel. And higher pop pressure can make harder starts, yes. But if he were to buy a new set, that 25psi lower he might get or the new set may be higher- not worth it imo.
Next is are these the 303, 311, or what? If they are higher flow, it’s designed to get same volume at 250 higher pressure iirc.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
They are the Marine mainly because I found made in Germany ones. I have one more set
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Then with more volume of fuel, it should compensate for more pressure, if it was too high.
I’ve had crazy thinking before though. Maybe wrong here
I’ve had crazy thinking before though. Maybe wrong here
Twisted Steel Performance
Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
I think just unplugging the fuel heater would be the easy thing to check first... then if the temp of the fuel is still high, well then go from their..
FellowTraveler
Well-Known Member
Remember the 6.5td has steam tube for a reason "crappy cooling system design." Heat soak or vapor causing super heating inside the heads & block? I would suspect EGW coolant water component vaporizing (steaming) causing extreme heat which would not show on your temp gauge however; it would be quite evident using a thermal image device or a quality laser pointer type temp gun.
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ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
so no change with the heater unplugged
schiker
Well-Known Member
Did the fuel temperature change? Your Original post of 140F seemed in line with a typical value of 159F and the expected range of (50-194F). But those typical values are not qualified as idling, heat soaked, or other. Nor does it talk about winter/summer or today's low sulfur/bio blends fuels.
But temp and viscosity are still not the same as we are talking about winter fuel. Still haven't put to bed viscosity issues and any combined effect of injectors and IP losing something with the viscosity of winter fuel. A slight delay in timing due to pumping loss or slightly lower volume of injection combined pumping loss/higher pop?
Have you noticed any pattern with just how warm it causes problems?
How about any manual glow time? Wonder if engine warm ECM does not call for appreciable glow time but might would help due to slight delay or volume of fuel (less btu too)? It just doesn't cook off in colder air, a bit less fuel, and a bit later than expected so the power stroke over to start isn't working.
But temp and viscosity are still not the same as we are talking about winter fuel. Still haven't put to bed viscosity issues and any combined effect of injectors and IP losing something with the viscosity of winter fuel. A slight delay in timing due to pumping loss or slightly lower volume of injection combined pumping loss/higher pop?
Have you noticed any pattern with just how warm it causes problems?
How about any manual glow time? Wonder if engine warm ECM does not call for appreciable glow time but might would help due to slight delay or volume of fuel (less btu too)? It just doesn't cook off in colder air, a bit less fuel, and a bit later than expected so the power stroke over to start isn't working.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
Average running down the road temp seemed to be about 85* with the heater unplugged. I do have a manual override on my glow plugs but it doesn't seem to help. Haven't monitored it enough to know what temperature is the magic no start temperature. When I crack the hood the temp only got to 120*, it does start but you can tell it struggles a bit.
Twisted Steel Performance
Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
Remove the hood, that will cure it... just kidding ya know. Does your friend with the 6.5 have this trouble also ?
Will L.
Well-Known Member
I believe the ulsd is more viscous thN the original diesel as well. Talking to the shop that used to do my pumps, the guy I used died a while back, but the other builders there said they modified all their old numbers because of the new stuff. One of the guys said he was trained by the old builder, but has quit using his hot rod pump and injector higher pressure numbers because of it.
So running dowm the road is fine, just hot restarting issue is killing it by heat soak... need remote water heat exchangers now or what?! Unbelievable that a new pump cant handle it.
So running dowm the road is fine, just hot restarting issue is killing it by heat soak... need remote water heat exchangers now or what?! Unbelievable that a new pump cant handle it.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
Wish i knew someone still that could lab check a sample of your new winter fuel for free. They might be out of spec enough to cause this and if no one complains- no change if they are saving $
1999gmc
Active Member
Sorry, I didn't end up taking my truck this weekend to check temps. I'll try and see this week sometime and let you know.
n8in8or
I never met a project I didn’t like
FWIW, I had 2500psi pop marine injectors with my DS4 and never had any issues with it starting. And since it was my daily I would also have been running winter blend through it here in Michigan. I was also using a Raptor, though mine was the RP100, not the 150.
I went back to 2012 to look up the pop pressure I used that gave me so much trouble. 2350 psi pop pressure. My comments may be a little off base due to the even higher pressure.
These high pops always started hard and needed some RPM to light off all 8 and clear the smoke up. Everything else started better including the 1995 DS4, well, when the dammed kinked hose behind the FFM wasn't starving it for fuel...
Some of us have had discussions about white smoke after cold startup on higher pop PSI injectors.
I recall some saying the marine injectors burned up early?
Maybe take out a glow plug and look for fuel mist when you have a no-start?
These high pops always started hard and needed some RPM to light off all 8 and clear the smoke up. Everything else started better including the 1995 DS4, well, when the dammed kinked hose behind the FFM wasn't starving it for fuel...
Some of us have had discussions about white smoke after cold startup on higher pop PSI injectors.
I recall some saying the marine injectors burned up early?
Maybe take out a glow plug and look for fuel mist when you have a no-start?