Just noticed the new diesel oil API service rating CK-4

[btfarm]

They're ALL cutting back the zinc and phosphourus due to EPA regs.

I think it's time for me to switch to synthetic. Especially now that I am on pace for only about 10 to 12k per year instead of North of 30k.

I was implying that the synthetic has better lubrication qualities that might help make up for some of the loss of zinc

 

[Will L.]

@sctrailrider I dont know where it would belong-

6.5 performance is where I would guess, but when more people start building their own duramax's here then maybe a link to that thread?

Reducing friction and keeping heat in check is kinda a no brainer.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Ok, I have read on this until I'm blue in the face, and this is what I've been able to piece together. The change is largely 2 key pieces I've found. A change to the HTHS rating, and reducing the zddp(zinc and phosphourus) levels to those of current gas oils so it can mert the latest SN spark ignition rating.

The 1st is the change in the HTHS rating of the oil. I'm sure others can explain it better, but the general idea I've gathered is HTHS is known as the high temp high shear rating. The regular viscosity rating is how easily a liquid pours at a specified temperature either through a metered orifice, or I've read some used steel balls and measured how fast they dropped in the oil. The high temp high shear rating is a rating the measures the oils viscosity essentially, but it does this temp under pressure AND at a very high temperature of 150 C. This is supposed to be a more accurate measure of an oils ability to hold together under stress like preventing metal to metal contact or making it's way between the bearing surface and the crank to return back to the sump. The lower the HTHS rating tends to give better MPG's while a higher rating gives better oil longevity. Cj-4 oils I believe are in the 3.8-4.5 range from what I could find while the ck-4 specs reduce it to 3.2-3.5. Fa-4 oils do not meet any backwards compatibility of c rated oils since there hths ratings will be in the 2.5-2.8 range, well below the demands of most diesels built even within the last decade.

The reduction in the zddp reduces the zinc and phosphourus levels from the current 1200/1183 parts per million to those of spark ignition oils since 2004 of 830/800 parts per million. This is done primarily because zddp is known to coat over the matrix inside of exhaust emissions equipment reducing there efficiency or leading to early failure.

So in conclusion from what I've found, when you're working your engine harder with ck-4 oils, you should expect to see lower oil pressure from the lower hths rating, but you should expect fuel savings of .5-2%(WHOOPTY DOO, THANK'S EPA). Also from several reports I've read, also expect to see a shortened life from the lower hths rating, BUT supposedly they are supposed to be adding in a different additive package and polymers to extend drain intervals per the epa mandates of the ck-4 specifications(we will see). As to the reduced zddp levels, 830/800 parts per million is supposed to be adequite for properly broken in engines, even those running flat tappet cams. BUT it IS generally accepted that levels below 1200/1183 of current cj-4 oils is NOT acceptable levels to provide proper protection for engine break in. It is reccomended to find either a break in oil, or use an additive containing zddp. BUT there is a flip side to high zddp levels according to my research. If the zddp levels get too high, the phosphourus actually becomes corrosive to internal engine components causing internal engine damage and failure. So don't go running out and just pouring in additives loaded with zddp as you can drive the levels too high, and lead to your engines demise.

Also of note, additives such as stp and lucas oil stabilizer do NOTHING to help with zddp levels, and they actually dilute your additive packats in your oil making them less effective, and in the long term harming your oil. I lookedup quite a few lab analysis's of these additives, and they all confirmed these additives were nothing more than "heavy mineral base stock".

So in conclusion, the new oils have reduced zddp levels to those of regular spark ignition rated oils have been since 2004. Expect to possibly see reduced engine oil pressure when your oil temps get high. And to the epa's dekight the chance of seeing a .5-2% improvement in economy(higher increases WOULD be seen by deleting the current emissions equipment). I've done my best to thoroughly research this, and try and accurately type it up.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

As to Ford, they have now certified many ck-4 oils for use in there diesel engines. The concern was with the reduced zddp levels, it could lead to accelerated valvetrain wear, particuliarly the stem of the exhaust valve from the rocker arm moving against it. As to those saying this was a money making scheme by Ford to sell more of there oil. They put out the standard to be meet by the oil companies for free, and from what I could find has charged/made nothi,g from any of this and is giving away the use of there spec to the oil companies to meet.

And lastly, running diesel oil is no longer an option to get an easy to find oil with higher zinc and phosphourus levels as they are now the same as all spark ignition gas type oils. Valvoline makes there VR1 oil which is 1400/1380, and is availible at many large parts houses. Amsoil also makes a high zddp content oil, as well as a few other not so easy to obtain companies.

 

[Will L.]

So the valvetrain wear being the main victim, and issue really produced under higher heat- doing the ceramic coatings would eliminate issues. Of course you have to pull lifters, pushrods and rocker arms for coating.

 

[FellowTraveler]

So the valvetrain wear being the main victim, and issue really produced under higher heat- doing the ceramic coatings would eliminate issues. Of course you have to pull lifters, pushrods and rocker arms for coating.

I suspect cams too!

 

[FellowTraveler]

The popular Bosch P7100/3000 pumps are oiled w/crankcase oil so ceramic coating would be a requirement for longevity.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

I found a quick blip on one sight saying the epa is mandating the ck-4 oils meet the SN ratings as well, and that's the one requiring the reduction in zddp. Comp cams and lucas both make zddp additives. I saw a video done by amsoil rep about this, and he indicated that amsoil still makes a blend that meets the pre cj-4 levels of ch-4 for use in some older stationary equipment. Don't know how long they will make it, but if it is pre cj-4, it will have levels of 1400/1380 I believe. The only downfall is it won't have all the anti-soot additives in it that cj-4 on has, so you would probably have to stick with shorter drain intervals.

On the other hand, we had all the same doom and gloom over cj-4 oils back in 06, and people were screaming they were going to lose cams, valve trains, you name it, and we see none of that happened. I say if you'reworried, add a bottle of comp cam break 8n lube as it is concentrated zddp so it's not enough volume to thin out the actual oil much hindering the detergents and additives in the oil.

 

[jrsavoie]

I noticed AMSOIL has some synthetic oils for diesel applications for sale that is tagged "while supply lasts" I'm thinking those are the oils needed for our older diesels especially the Cummins.......

I looked and could not find this. Do you have a link? I need to order some Amsoil stuff anyway. I was waiting until the first of the month but may step that up if there are oils I want on sale

 

[FellowTraveler]

Look under diesel synthetic oils 15-40
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/diesel/?filters=81

 

[WarWagon]

I found a quick blip on one sight saying the epa is mandating the ck-4 oils meet the SN ratings as well, and that's the one requiring the reduction in zddp. Comp cams and lucas both make zddp additives. I saw a video done by amsoil rep about this, and he indicated that amsoil still makes a blend that meets the pre cj-4 levels of ch-4 for use in some older stationary equipment. Don't know how long they will make it, but if it is pre cj-4, it will have levels of 1400/1380 I believe. The only downfall is it won't have all the anti-soot additives in it that cj-4 on has, so you would probably have to stick with shorter drain intervals.

On the other hand, we had all the same doom and gloom over cj-4 oils back in 06, and people were screaming they were going to lose cams, valve trains, you name it, and we see none of that happened. I say if you'reworried, add a bottle of comp cam break 8n lube as it is concentrated zddp so it's not enough volume to thin out the actual oil much hindering the detergents and additives in the oil.

Having scuffed a piston on CJ-4, experienced "low oil pressure stop engine" alarms, and clearly noted CJ-4 was reformulated due to drain interval demands from fleet operators I suggest the Doom and Gloom is justified. Maybe not as much as predicted. The oil companies and the EPA are NOT paying to rebuild or replace the older engine their new standards won't protect. The oil companies are forced to try new technology by the EPA with emissions, not long engine life, as the #1 goal. Old technology engines are simply left to fend for themselves. Fleet operators are the test subjects and will take years to get the final formula hammered out. We are the test subjects as there wasn't much changed on the 2007.5+ Duramax, Cummins etc. except slapping emissions equipment on and, oh yeah, a different oil spec on a older engine design. (6.7 from a 5.9 is like a 6.5 from a 6.2...)

We run additives for our IP's due to ULSD's known lube problems. Hopefully corrected, but, now corrected with Biodiesel.

The biodiesel is a improvement to the oil, but, so what if you loose the valve train anyway. Biodiesel needs better water separators or a bad injector will ruin your engine faster than the oil. With the 5% or more Biodiesel showing up everywhere diesel engine owners are going to have to deal with it. Boat owner forums with it's bugs in fuel storage problems are ahead of most of us in the "hate biodiesel's expensive problems" arena.

UOA shows that Lucas Engine Break-in oil additive does add zinc esp for the flat tappet Cummins I have. The interaction with other additives as noted is the #1 concern I have doing this.

And then I notice AMSOIL is no longer playing the PAO base stock is better marketing game as their stuff may not be PAO anymore: "At the end of the day, the type of base stock used to formulate the oil is inconsequential; the product’s performance is what matters." http://www.amsoil.com/frequent.aspx

After all I ruin oil and then suffer the effects. If it protects better why does Allison recommend their oil vs. the Dextron VI? I recall looking at the Dextron VI all over the back hatch of the Trailblazer SS with the 4L70E in it after towing the parts route a week: Yeah, marketing bullS%$# wrote a check that reality bounced. GM got to replace that transmission and blued torque converter under warranty. Hot thin oil has low pressure problems and won't hold a TC Clutch... I had to rent a vehicle the next two weeks because of the scuffed piston in the 6.5 and now a toasted transmission.

TBN was supposed to be a non-factor in CJ-4. I still watch it in UOA and it's still one of the life limiting items. TBN in fact was what fleet operators hit Shell with causing their Rotella to have a longer drain interval than synthetic T6 - because fleet operators are frugal and don't run synthetic. (IMO synthetic only has an advantage for high heat and load conditions.)

Simply put old technology and new thinner oils don't mix. The OEM's simply shrug and try anyway.

 

[boatist]

YEARS back they used to make lifters with a small orifice drilled into the center of the lifter so as to spray oil directly onto the cam and provide a thicker oil film. They stopped doing it once the zinc and phosphourus levels were increased, looks like it might make a comeback with the new oils that we now have out.

EDM holes. Still popular with solid lifter gas engines.