Intercooler Location

[vdb11]

Hey guys, I have been reading around here and have some questions. I have an small ATA intercooler from a Honda I believe, its decent size, I can't remember the dimensions of it off hand, but somewhere around 2 in x 7 in x 25 in. It says JDM on the side of it. I am considering where to put it. Could I expect to see a worthwhile change in EGTs if I install my intercooler on top of the intake under the hood (factory hood, no vents). I was thinking about putting in behind the grill in front of the radiator because I do not need my AC condenser anyway and it would get excellent airflow through it, but it looks as if the oil cooler might get in the way, plus it would take some cutting to make room for the tubing. I also saw several of you guys have it near the skid plate. Can you do that and still have the skid plate on? I'm assuming more piping = slightly more lag so that's why I'm considering under the hood as well. Any input is welcome Thank you!

 

[NVW]

Anywhere under the hood without it closed in with a hood scoop and you will increase your IAT and EGT. In the grill or the skid plate are your best options, and the skid plate is removed.

 

[vdb11]

That's kinda what I figured, everyone I saw that had the IC under the hood had hoop scoops or cowl hood, etc. and I don't really want that look. I think I will try the grill, as I would like to keep my skid plate there. Call me crazy but I see it as a little piece of protection for the harmonic balancer rubber and pulley. It may not do anything, but in my mind it does

 

[Turbine Doc]

You off road much ??? skid plate that came on my truck was a hard plastic more of a "mud shield", that came off when my IC went in, as far as protection goes the IC will protect more stuff IMO mine bottomed out during some post Katrina debris avoidance where I got stuck and the truck sat on the IC for 3 hours before we could unstuck it.

If off roading much you'll want to fabricate a shield for the IC that you can install when offroading so you don't damage fins in the core or stuff up with mud, then remove the shield when going home.

The IC isn't doing much for you off road anyway as you aren't making big boost that needs charge air cooling, and you are also not moving air across it.

Slow crawling/moving off road here is where a WMI controlled by boost pressure or IAT would be better for off road 4x4 action than IC under bumper. ICs for me are great for folks that tow big a lot and don't want to mess with refilling a water tank, reason I removed mine was a VERY slight performance delta with it when coupled with my ATT it spools better without the IC and one would have to know their truck very well to notice it, most folks would not know the difference with/without IC from a performance perspective.

For the 6.5 that was not designed with IC in grille I'm, not a big proponent of adding IC there as the condenser & rad already there are flow challenged so adding another item to the stack may not be a good thing, some have done it with mixed results other with good result, but most of the 6.5s that get IC'd have them located under bumper.

Here was mine back in the day http://myweb.cableone.net/tbogemirep/ I did wind up having to plumb with solid tube the flex exhaust was only 3 psi rated and oil/boost pressure would weep from the seams when boosting.

2 years ago I ditched the IC as my ATT so far has not needed the IC but I do have a WMI kit that will be going on someday, no mud shield on the truck now as my Buck-Stop bumper is in the way and I prefer the maintenance access without the shield.

 

[Turbine Doc]

Hey guys, I have been reading around here and have some questions. I have an small ATA intercooler from a Honda I believe, its decent size, I can't remember the dimensions of it off hand, but somewhere around 2 in x 7 in x 25 in. It says JDM on the side of it. I am considering where to put it.

IC I used is 25" x 7" x 4.5" with IC's bigger is better as too small an IC can impede flow but often economics drive the decision as well, kit I used at time was around $1300 I don't believe Kennedy sells them any more but several places on web you can fab yourself similarly for much less.

 

[vdb11]

Thank you Turbine! I actually don't off road at all really, its off road a good bit doing farm work, but I don't go mudding or anything with it, I would rather mess around in the snow (speaking of that we missed the blizzard here in central PA ) Anyways, yes economics drove the decision, as they drive everything I do unfortunately, I'm a poor college student ha. I got the thing for 20 bucks with plans to fab everything up myself. I guess the IC would shield quite a bit once installed. I do tow some and see higher boost numbers, so I would find benefit, but I am thinking that the benefit is most likely not worth all of the time I will need to put it to create a custom upper intake and run the tubing. Ha I was actually wondering about the flex exhaust tubing, I'm glad you answered that question for me.

I hope to do an aftermarket turbo sometime in the future (again at the right price), either an ATT, but more likely an HX-35 or 40, so I may not need all this EGT cooling. However, about the WMI, I definitely would like to do that, especially since I have seen the kits can be homemade for a relatively low cost, plus probably more performance than an IC if a 50/50 mix is used, and I would only use it when I need it. Thank you Turbine Doc!! and IIRC from the Place, you have had your truck on the dyno at one point?

 

[Turbine Doc]

Dynoed 3x so far stock, early performance days with just a F PCM & "fooler", then with F PCM-h/o injectors-"fooler" & I/C.

Last time it was dynoed was 2005 netting 197rwhp & 390#'rw tq this was before incorporating full FTB, with IC, before current reflash, and before ATT, I'm making more power now, I don't have it documented how much additional power I'm making now; as last couple of years I've been unable to make the annual quasi local (110 miles away) GTGs/dyno events.

Now for something that will sound like a sales pitch but it isn't, just food for thought, ultimately your truck your wallet; do what works for you and what you can afford.

To be considered with the HX turbos; they will need post compression charge air cooling period; as they have to run 10+ psi to make big HP#s 10+ psi boost is where IAT really starts to climb; also to run sustained high boost CR has to be lowered, so factor that in with the cost of using a recycled HX turbo, they have capability of making too high a boost to keep the 6.5 in it's "safe zone" at stock CR level.

With ATT cost new compared to work making a used HX turbo go IMO it's a wash; unless one gets a great deal on the HX & parts to lower the CR of the engine, also I would not put HX directly on hi-mile 6.5 unless it had just been gone thru in a rebuild; 100+K parts with boost the HX is capable of can go boom rather quickly whereas the ATT will make the power of the HX in the boost envelope the engine was designed to operate with.

I'm not against HXs several folks run them with good results; these observations provided as my truck having the longest time for ATT install and highest miles; I just wanted to provide some thoughts on them, with HX you have to make more provision to run with them, you don't just "plug & play" install one like you can the ATT.

 

[great white]

...However, about the WMI, I definitely would like to do that, especially since I have seen the kits can be homemade for a relatively low cost, plus probably more performance than an IC if a 50/50 mix is used, and I would only use it when I need it. Thank you Turbine Doc!! and IIRC from the Place, you have had your truck on the dyno at one point?

10% meth is generally considered the most you want to run in a stock 6.5 if you want it to live very long. IIRC, Bill Heath just runs straight water and recommends 10-20% meth as a MAX.

Too much meth + high compression diesels = BOOM!

I've heard meth described as nitrous for diesels. A little makes power, too much makes boat anchors. Lot's of guys I've talked to (in the bizz) say meth is drugs for diesels. The usually follow up with with the line we all know........"Just Say No to Drugs"........

I've got a devils own progressive kit on the way for myself, but I'll be running stright distilled water for EGT control.

Here's Edzzed's Devil's Own kit install: http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/install-pics/install-pics-6-5-gmc-diesel-1653.html :for reference.

WMI can be done fairly cheap, but you'll be looking at somewhere between 100-300 bucks, depending on how good of a "scounger" you can be.

For an idea, have a look at this rough price list:

Pump - 75-100 bucks
Tubing - 20-40 bucks
Nozzles - 15-25 bucks each
Check valve - 10-20 bucks
Hobs switch (if boost referenced) - 20-30 bucks
Wiring and assorted relays/switches - 15-20 bucks
Assorted barbs, nipples and fitting adapters - 15-20 bucks
Water filters (IE: fish tank rock filter, brass granular filter, etc) - 10-20 bucks (plugged check valves and nozzles are veeeery bad!)

That's around 180 bucks best case, 265 bucks worst case and it's something that you "cobbled" together and hope it works as you want. You don't have a tank in there yet, figure another 20 bucks for both systems for even a basic water tank if you don't plan to use your stock washer tank.

All this, and you still have a basic "on/off" switch with a boost referenced Hobs switch. The system is on or off as opposed to some of the very nice progressive units on the market these days for a pretty minimal extra investment over the high side of a DIY WMI setup.

It can be done DIY, but you have to ask yourself if you know enough about it to do it right. The consequences of getting it wrong can be a waste of money at best, a blown engine at worst (IE: firing a rod out the side of the block from too much meth or hydro-locking the engine)

I explored the DIY WMI at first, found out it wasn't as "cheap" as I thought it was for the very basic setup I was getting.

Then a new, unused and complete Devils Own 3 bar progressive kit popped up on ebay, starting at 100 bucks. I didn't even wait for the auction to run it's course and try to win it low. I used the "buy it now" option and grabbed it at the 200 bucks he was asking. And it was "a steal" at that price to begin with......

I'll offer one final piece of advice:

Whichever way you go (DIY or Kit), make sure your nozzles are the highest point in the WMI setup. If they're not, you can get siphoning into the intake if the check valve leaks. Next time you start the engine, you hydro-lock and bend rods, crack blocks, pop head gasket and all other sorts of nastiness......

 

[vdb11]

Turbine, those are great numbers at the rear wheels! Anyways, excellent points on the turbo, I had never thought of that. From what I have read, getting more volume into the intake rather than more boost is the key for these motors since 15 lbs is really all it can handle. I'm assuming both the ATT and HX turbos would do that well (compared to the GM-x series). Maybe I will just have to start saving up ha. I do not want to lower my compression as I would like to retain the higher compression for simplicity's sake. I am glad you pointed that out to me though, I guess it makes sense that the HX turbos do not make big power until higher boost considering their original engine. Although fabricating and modifying are usually not a huge deal for me, I could understand that this could be a big project, whereas an ATT is plug and play. I guess one more question about turbos would be have you heard of anyone using anything other than HX, ATT, or GM-x on these trucks with good results?? I like you guys helping me find all my options.

great white, thanks for the tip! I did not realize 10% was the max, but I know now! Anyways, I see what you mean about the DIY approach, it could be quite a project. And that was definitely a good deal on that Devil's Own!! when running straight distilled water, will you see any performance gain besides lowered EGTs? The way it sounds a good turbo might lower my EGTs enough to not even warrant an IC or a WMI kit for my use. The only reason I want to lower EGTs is so that I can safely increase fuel a bit. I will be doing some bottom end strengthening mods before I go too crazy. Like you said I didn't really want to use "drugs" as I know they have been called, heck I have even considered propane, which I have heard is definitely a performance gain but does increase EGTs so probably not the best.

Anyways, thank you guys for all your help, I'm learning more everyday!!

 

[Turbine Doc]

I guess one more question about turbos would be have you heard of anyone using anything other than HX, ATT, or GM-x on these trucks with good results??

Some guys running a Switzer turbo, and we have one of our brethren North of the border running a VNT turbo, Bill Heath is running a set of custom twin turbos/intakes on his LSR. Multiple possibilities out there just takes requisite R&D to make it work, then there is tuning to make the better or different boost to work with the delivery of the DS4 IP & injectors, then some folks playing with pre-cups of larger size, the 6.5 is still in it's infancy as far as performance goes.

 

[turbonator]

here is our 6.2/6.5l hybrid motor..... it uses the holset 351-vgt turbo along with custom hedders and turbo pedestal... we had the intercooler on at the start, but due to space restraints we removed it... to date the most boost we have hit was about 22psi.... the highest egts pulling 14000lbs up a 6 percent grade was around 900'f.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lgyn1jBrhE

 

[turbonator]

here is the intercooler placement in our latest build.... we call this truck junior, it is going to have a 351 vgt turbo centre mounted on a custom pedestal on top of the engine.....:thumbsup:

 

[3500GMC]

Do you sit on the radiator or what?

Who needs a radiator, huh?

 

[turbonator]

no it is not on the rad, there is 2.5 inches between the ic and rad.... there is no AC on this truck as i believe a truck with AC cannot be classified as ''performance''.... also all of the hood latch and related hardware found itself in the scrap steel bin... the hood will be held down with hood pins... i have about 1.5 inches between the IC tubes and the grill.... in the middle of the grill there is 2.5 inches of clearance before the grill touches the tranny cooler...

 

[vdb11]

Very cool turbonator!! It looks like you are having some great success building these motors up! Only 900 up a 6% grade w/ 14000 pounds? Awesome! I would love that! I believe I recognize you from over at the Place, you have the Pugg project correct? I will be following your builds closely

Turbine, thank you for the info! I am always open to all options so its nice to know, I will be doing some research. Anyways, I would love to get my truck on a dyno some time, just not quite sure where or how ha. As far as performance, I love seeing you guys trying new things and putting the effort into these old motors, instead of taking the easy way out and buying a new truck with a world of expensive performance aftermarket parts behind you. I myself would like to one day be a contributor to this great cause of trying new things and finding recipes for success to show the world that the 6.5 can still be a great motor. I am literally open to all ideas performance wise and I follow all of you guys' success. I am always willing to experiment, but unfortunately, I do not have the financial means to do some serious investigation or building so I will be looking for economical ways to add power as well

I will look into these turbos Turbine, thank you!

 

[turbonator]

if we had the money loose, i would invest in the ATT in a heartbeat just to be able to try it....
actually its the reason i am over here posting now as well.... i have been thinking to start a build thread here for our ''junior build'' as there is not much interest in our build over at the Place...
i really like the idea of a 6.5l performance forum as there is performance to be had with these motors.....

the reason we have been building motors with the holset 351 vgt is that last year we found them on e-bay for so cheap it was crazy... we paid 200.00 for 2 turbos shipping included, and they were brand new, the only problem with them was that the sensor in the electronics for the variable vanes was coated with soot and throwing codes in the ecu, so the dealers were just changing the whole turbo instead of cleaning the sensor....
now that the warranty on these trucks is finished, the dealers are taking them apart and cleaning them...

 

[vdb11]

Yeah I was actually looking at some on ebay last night. Used ones seem to be $250-450 (USD) now, which still isn't bad, about the same price as HX35s and 40s. Agreed, if I had the money I would get the ATT, and probably will eventually. Like I said, I don't mind trying something new. I will be following your build that's for sure! How do you plan to beef up the bottom end on the junior build? IIRC, you used a homemade stud girdle on Pugg, which I have considered doing myself when I do my rebuild (hopefully this summer) but I don't know if I trust myself to make it right and avoid more harm to my bottom end than good.

 

[turbonator]

We will do another 5 bolt girdle set same as on "Pugg". It is not difficult really, major items is to have the center to center of the bolts correct, then insure that it sits flat on the main caps. Did a lot of hand filing on the last one, to fit pan. This one, the holes will be .080" further out, which will eliminate the majority of that.

 

[vdb11]

Oh I see. I have done some research on these girdles and I have seen they can be done with the stock oil pan, like yours. Anyways, I have also read about using hard blok as well, just enough to stiffen up the bottom end without sacrificing too much coolant and oil flow. What do you think? I wanna stiffen up my 599 block when I rebuild the motor.

 

[turbonator]

we are currently waiting on funds to come in to go and have our block machined...... i have been thinking a little about bloc-fill, maybe we will go that route also as it cant but help to solidify the bottom of the block... we will keep you posted...