Hungry IP Feed it!

[Turbine Doc]

I hear ye,in theory all good.
I worked on a lot of older militairy gen sets,most things that failed and caused havoc were the miriad of safety sensors and switches

Passive alarm only in my setup no authority to create havoc also been there done that with sensors, in USN and current job.

One thing I like about the vac switches I get a preemptive alarm on hard accel or WOT demand if the filters are starting to get dirty vs fully blocked the led blinks as the contacts open/close within the switch.

But @ $27 each from Racor then (not sure if they cost more now), it was not a huge bang for buck mod, except I now only change filters when they actually need to be changed; vs a mileage/time based change interval so I guess some savings to be had by not removing filts from service before they are actually clogged to point where flow is diminished.

 

[Jorge6.5]

How deep are you drilling the hole in the FFm for the outlet?

 

[Pruittx2]

After you cut the old 1/4 out put nipple off,,,, you can see the tube inside the FF. So at that point I took a smallbit, and used it as a depth gauge,, to find the aprox depth,,, then I put a piece of masking tape on the drill bit, for a indicator. it takes a few tries,, as your scared to go to far,, so drill and check. repeat. But the drill bit will make a clean hole to that tube, No worries.


soon as I took the orings out, I put them in a little tub of WD-40 till reassem time. The was the can is wet just under the filter black ring,,, makes me wonder.

 

[racedaymechanic]

No disrespect here but I cant for the life of me see going thru all this when there are so Many aftermarket Fuel/Water separators that are in so many ways superior to the stock FFM Its just not worth it as the gains are miniscule

 

[Pruittx2]

After you cut the old 1/4 out put nipple off,,,, you can see the tube inside the FF. So at that point I took a smallbit, and used it as a depth gauge,, to find the aprox depth,,, then I put a piece of masking tape on the drill bit, for a indicator. it takes a few tries,, as your scared to go to far,, so drill and check. repeat. But the drill bit will make a clean hole to that tube, No worries.


soon as I took the orings out, I put them in a little tub of WD-40 till reassem time. The can is wet just under the filter black ring,,, makes me wonder.


So I go back outside,,,, after typing all this above,,,, and check again,,, as soon as you prime system,, it starts seaping out around ring,, Damn it I thought the top ring was cracked or bad ,,,,, anywho,,, I go to local parts store that has the new design filter,,, $32 got home,,, switched filters,, and same thing. :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: So I pull it back out to look for anything,,, and look at what my DumbAss found!!! :mad2:



Well no wonder it was leaking!?? So now new design is in,,,,, and no LEAKS!!! TaDa! :doh::loser:

Looks like I got a new old design for next time.

Also got the orings ordered from Shaheen Chevrolet in Lansing, Mi. using these part numbers 12511959 12511962 <-- this one is the large one on the bottom.

 

[2DRTURBO]

I hear ya raceday. I think this tread is effectively making some huge deal out of what is really 30 minutes of easy work. I did the mod since I had the intake manifold off anyway to do injectors. It's a $40 kit and I spent maybe an extra 45 minutes max adding this to the total job and that included putting in new filter and replacing all the other rubber fuel lines. . Super easy. I just figured why not do it "while I'm in there". Maybe next time around I'll do one of the better all new set ups but for this time the $40 and 45 mins were worth it...

 

[Pruittx2]

I think this tread is effectively making some huge deal out of what is really 30 minutes of easy work.

Hmm,,, didn't really care for that.


My whole point of being here at the TS. Is to be helpful and respectful to others, as they have been for me. This is what happened to ME. This mod for some reason seem more daunting the it actually was. Having never been back there at all,,, and IF I had to do it again today,,, I'd dive right in and knock it out in 30-40 mins also. Call it fear of the unknown. or 2 little kids running around and no other vehicle to drive, being broke as hell or what ever.
Sure I Made some mistakes along the way, like the first time I did anything. But I was willing to take pics, and describe what I went thru, so Others could just go ahead and do it. I had the stuff,, New it need lines anyway, SO I did it. now when the New chip gets, here, I won't have to worry bout the fuel.

 

[2DRTURBO]

I think this tread is effectively making some huge deal out of what is really 30 minutes of easy work.

Hmm,,, didn't really care for that.


My whole point of being here at the TS. Is to be helpful and respectful to others, as they have been for me. This is what happened to ME. This mod for some reason seem more daunting the it actually was. Having never been back there at all,,, and IF I had to do it again today,,, I'd dive right in and knock it out in 30-40 mins also. Call it fear of the unknown. or 2 little kids running around and no other vehicle to drive, being broke as hell or what ever.
Sure I Made some mistakes along the way, like the first time I did anything. But I was willing to take pics, and describe what I went thru, so Others could just go ahead and do it. I had the stuff,, New it need lines anyway, SO I did it. now when the New chip gets, here, I won't have to worry bout the fuel.

No, no, I did NOT mean it that way AT ALL! I have had 20 minute jobs turn into 4 hour jobs. Also, I have kids, etc, i KNOW how it goes. Please don't take it personally. It was NOT intended like that and I truly apologize if there was any disrespect. :nonod: The intention of my comment was just to clarify re: what raceday said. It was to make the point that the FTB mod does have a time and place and, if all goes well in install, its worth doing if you are already in there (in my opinion). My point is that That for anyone who doesn't have the money, know-how, time, or simply the interest in re-working the whole fuel filter/delivery system, the FTB mod DOES make sense to do and does do away with the 1/4 necking down of the fuel line going into the IP. Simply said.

 

[Turbine Doc]

No disrespect here but I cant for the life of me see going thru all this when there are so Many aftermarket Fuel/Water separators that are in so many ways superior to the stock FFM Its just not worth it as the gains are miniscule

Well Bruce that was nearly the same comment proposed to me by Bill Heath when I 1st went down this road, yet I've made a believer of him now, what prompted me to explore this going up a grade with a load APP all way to the floor limited to 2700 rpm, EGT @ 800F boost @ 14 and no more go left in the truck, added the gauge and found out my lift pump wasn't up to the task even the h/o lift from a 93 GM lift pump. Did me some thinking about why was i flow restricted, saw big hole feeding a little one , remembered doing a filter install on a buddies DMAX that was big plumbing all way out from tank.

Opened the fittings for the IP and the filter mgr @ viola got the missing grunt I was expecting to see on the hill back, why not just change to aftermarket filter , yes one could do that, this mod retains OEM functionality of heater and WIF detection for free or virtually free. I t does not add power in itself but does prevent flow restrictions in GMs fuel system from restricting the IP from getting fuel flow and sustaining power demand so long as you have a healthy lift pump to begin with.

As far as the drilling of the hole into the housing to make sure I was not capable of screwing up & not paying attention, I put the bit I was using on a grinder flattening the center of the drill bits point since you already have a hole in the middle you don't need the point to start the hole and are using the sides of the bit to make the hole, don't forget to undersize as required to match the taps threading requirement.

 

[Brooklyn Tow]

After you cut the old 1/4 out put nipple off,,,, you can see the tube inside the FF. So at that point I took a smallbit, and used it as a depth gauge,, to find the aprox depth,,, then I put a piece of masking tape on the drill bit, for a indicator. it takes a few tries,, as your scared to go to far,, so drill and check. repeat. But the drill bit will make a clean hole to that tube, No worries.


soon as I took the orings out, I put them in a little tub of WD-40 till reassem time. The can is wet just under the filter black ring,,, makes me wonder.


So I go back outside,,,, after typing all this above,,,, and check again,,, as soon as you prime system,, it starts seaping out around ring,, Damn it I thought the top ring was cracked or bad ,,,,, anywho,,, I go to local parts store that has the new design filter,,, $32 got home,,, switched filters,, and same thing. :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: So I pull it back out to look for anything,,, and look at what my DumbAss found!!! :mad2:

View attachment 34120

Well no wonder it was leaking!?? So now new design is in,,,,, and no LEAKS!!! TaDa! :doh::loser:

Looks like I got a new old design for next time.

Also got the orings ordered from Shaheen Chevrolet in Lansing, Mi. using these part numbers 12511959 12511962 <-- this one is the large one on the bottom.

Looks good....Nice Job. Did you feel any seat of the pants difference....Butt Dyno?

The FFM O-rings didn't come with the kit from Walking J?.....I know you said it's leaking from the top where the threaded ring seats the filter, sometimes the rubber and metal ring attached to the filter becomes unseated.

Or sometimes the old O-Ring falls off the filter and you end up with 2 O-Rings trying to seal the top......Which I doubt, because you had the whole FFM out and it would be pretty hard to miss that.

:hello:

 

[racedaymechanic]

Well Bruce that was nearly the same comment proposed to me by Bill Heath when I 1st went down this road, yet I've made a believer of him now, what prompted me to explore this going up a grade with a load APP all way to the floor limited to 2700 rpm, EGT @ 800F boost @ 14 and no more go left in the truck, added the gauge and found out my lift pump wasn't up to the task even the h/o lift from a 93 GM lift pump. Did me some thinking about why was i flow restricted, saw big hole feeding a little one , remembered doing a filter install on a buddies DMAX that was big plumbing all way out from tank.

Opened the fittings for the IP and the filter mgr @ viola got the missing grunt I was expecting to see on the hill back, why not just change to aftermarket filter , yes one could do that, this mod retains OEM functionality of heater and WIF detection for free or virtually free. I t does not add power in itself but does prevent flow restrictions in GMs fuel system from restricting the IP from getting fuel flow and sustaining power demand so long as you have a healthy lift pump to begin with.

As far as the drilling of the hole into the housing to make sure I was not capable of screwing up & not paying attention, I put the bit I was using on a grinder flattening the center of the drill bits point since you already have a hole in the middle you don't need the point to start the hole and are using the sides of the bit to make the hole, don't forget to undersize as required to match the taps threading requirement.

But thats my point, I put a Racor 230r on my truck 6an lines and a Walbro lift pump there is nothing you can do to a Stock type lift pump/FFM to even come close to that setup

 

[Pruittx2]

It's all good.

lesson learned,,, this was the ring of the new filter I just took out, I screwed up and put the new style on only to still have leak. upon inspection I found it, reset new filter and all seems good! Still gonna pick up O-rings from stealer Tuesday, and replace soon.

 

[crash2win64]

Yea get rid of that stock junk and put a remote mount spin on filter assembly in its place that has no restrictions or specialized o rings from stanadyne to order or expensive filters... Then while your at it forget the FTB small fitting and run half inch to IP. My setups 1/2" from tank pickup to IP(custom fuel tank pickup).

 

[Turbine Doc]

Well really not wanting to derail the thread much more than already has been done, but I wanted to provide some further explanations/logic on FTB with existing filter mgr. since the redirection has already happened.

The OEM filter is a 5 micron nominal which is more than adequate as a final filter for the 6.5, some go to a 2 micron which is overkill IMO.

Both a 2 &5 rating as a single filter are too fine and from my experience clog too rapidly when used as a single filter, I do not subscribe to the Nicktane single 2 micron filter setup even though it gets by because the filter is physically large and it takes time to clog it up, sellers & users swear this is the way to go I don't.

So my setup is a Racor 660T (10 micron) primary under bed before lift pumps then into the OEM 5 micron nominal on engine.

Ideally to "polish" the fuel one would have a 3 filter system 30 micron to 10, to a 5 or 2 micron final filter, so that the larger filters will progressively "sift" the largest "chunks" out of the fuel so your single element isn't dealing with large & small stuff at same time. BTW when I talked to engineering @ Racor, Wix & Baldwin they agree 3 filter if you can do it is best of all options.

With limited real estate for mounting filters and cost for 3 I opted for just the 2 (1) already provided by the OEM that I improved with the larger outlet fitting and the Racor setup as my primary which does the lions share of the fuel "polishing".

Why not a all in 1 smaller media filter, I learned hard way long ago back in 80s when I was in charge of our ships fuel systems for propulsion and power generating engines/turbines as well as the helicopter fuel replenishment service system at some point if a filter goes unmonitored with high DP across the filter ;the filter when partially clogged on hard acceleration/load demand can fail, as the engines when at full bore load demand/thirst can pull fuel to point of actually sucking a hole in the filter media and you get unfiltered fuel, & filter media itself in the injectors & the fuel control/injection pump gumming up the works.

Filter sizing isn't just a plug & play selection you have to do some homework, looking at flow restriction at current and possible upgraded flow requirements/restrictions and DP across the filter as it becomes dirty.

IMO the Racor 230 filter is too small a filter for anything above stock power, the 30 in the 230 means 30gph max flow through the filter, I chose the 60 gph on mine not because I will be flowing 60 gph, but that body is the largest I could fit in the installation location, & would hold the most "dirt" before clogging without compromising flow through the filter.

Is my setup perfect I don't know, but has worked for me years now, I generally run 3 years or so on my primary fuel filter element, and it has been about 5 years now since I've changed the on engine OEM filter. 1/2" line to the IP from the tank works, overkill IMO but nothing wrong with that loginc if you want to replace it all especilly if in a replacement mode with rotten lines, you still can only flow x amount into the IP as regulated by the IP inlet fitting holes under the screen & pressure regulator setting hence my thought that 1/2" is overkill

 

[Turbine Doc]

It's all good.

lesson learned,,, this was the ring of the new filter I just took out, I screwed up and put the new style on only to still have leak. upon inspection I found it, reset new filter and all seems good! Still gonna pick up O-rings from stealer Tuesday, and replace soon.

Hmnn last one I did leaked there under the plastic ring also and I had to adjust it, I wonder if some abnormalities in the seal they are providing now, what brand filter did you install?

 

[crash2win64]

Who says you have to use that IP fitting?

opcorn:

 

[NVW]

Who says you have to use that IP fitting?

opcorn:

What did you use in place of the IP inlet valve with the 4 small holes?

 

[Pillow]

The OEM filter is a 5 micron

Good to know!

IMO the Racor 230 filter is too small a filter for anything above stock power, the 30 in the 230 means 30gph max flow through the filter, I chose the 60 gph on mine not because I will be flowing 60 gph, but that body is the largest I could fit in the installation location, & would hold the most "dirt" before clogging without compromising flow through the filter.

... Perhaps I am missing something here, but it seems that you have semi-contradicted yourself in logic. Why do you think 30 GPH is too little? How much volume is the Walbro pump pushing? How much fuel gets bypassed back to the tank?

I'm not trying to be smart, but I would *think* 30 gph would be overkill.

 

[Pruittx2]

Hmnn last one I did leaked there under the plastic ring also and I had to adjust it, I wonder if some abnormalities in the seal they are providing now, what brand filter did you install?

I put an Autozone $19.99 filter in,, that was the old style that leaked. It seems to me, that once you put a stock filter in,, and then take it back out,, the chances of reusing it, are about none!
as the metal ring, in the rubber seal, can get dislodged. Maybe that's why it was leaking for me. But I put a new style filter in, I got from Parts Plus $32 the seal in that unit, comes loose in the package, and comes with directions to seat rubber seal first, then put filter in can, till lid touch's and then tighten 1/4 turn past contact.

I'll probably keep using the new style, after I find a lower cost supply for them.

If your broke, like me,,, then the FTB mod is the best cost effective way to go. Just My $0.02

 

[NVW]

Good to know!



... Perhaps I am missing something here, but it seems that you have semi-contradicted yourself in logic. Why do you think 30 GPH is too little? How much volume is the Walbro pump pushing? How much fuel gets bypassed back to the tank?

I'm not trying to be smart, but I would *think* 30 gph would be overkill.

If you read it again, it's to do with size, not flow. Size does matter, or so I've been told.