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Head flow info

Used castings are risk. I don't even mess with used heads for builds because about 75% of them are cracked, all the builds end up with new heads (which really increases the cost of the build) but it is what it is.

I think a customer would send me some heads they think are crack free, only to find after vatting and magnaflux that they are cracked. Then they would be out the cost of shipping and cleanup and checking work. We won't spend the time to port a cracked head no matter where it's cracked. Just not worth the time into something flawed.

I plan on having a set of aftermarket castings ported. These are way less expensive than the AMG castings and for many have worked well for stock applications. I think to help offset the cost of porting we can offer an aftermarket head.

We flowed an aftermarket head on the bench to compare it to at stock AMG head. Same results. Had to know, in the gas world some of the aftermarket replacement quality castings flow better than the OE castings they replace.

We know how frugal 6.5 guys are ;) so a ported aftermarket head with reclaimed valves and hardware is most likely the most economical bang for the buck offering. I have a tremendous amount of core valves, and v-train hardware, this would be a good use for. For an all-new setup we can offer the AMG setup too.

I'll let Chris speak for the coatings part. I just know there will be flow data before and after coatings.
 
FellowTraveler said:
When you say real measurable results will to include runs on rollers, or?
Click to expand...

I'm done with the rollers for the most part. It will be results based on CFM to Lift values and percentages compared to OE.

Gains are subjective to bolt-on hardware.

Engine Dyno results would be great from stock head to modified, but this won't happen until I get my own engine dyno in house, not any time soon... if ever.
 
As far as what will be offered is yet to be determined completely, to get as balanced flow as possible is a slow process and that adds up to many hours labor and it's not my day job it's my hobby...

Part of why we will only offer a new never run head is the coating part, a never run head doesn't require the costly process of removing all oil from the casting required for coating, so less cost towards any coatings, if they are wanted..

The less we need to send them across the country the better cost wise...

As of this minute I/we haven't finished this sample set, we have a few more sets in line for more r&d.
 
Im wondering about the metallurgy difference of the p400 head. I can't remember the details, but I remember being happier with the idea of a p400 head in the future to resist cracking.

I remember you were looking for a p400 head to cut up,
If it is a better option, I would be interested to get you two's opinion if it's worth it to have you guys do all the work to new p400 heads or not in the future.

I'm still at about 100,000 miles on current engine, so I'll be patiently waiting, no hurry (I hope). Current theory is a new p400 with every bell/whistle I can fit.
 
sctrailrider said:
Jay you might remember my other motor had all the coatings inside and how much I bragged about the stuff..
Click to expand...

Definitely remember that build and that rotating surfaces got treated for slinging oil all the friction surfaces got coated for reduced drag (which begged the question of whether oil was necessary) Also recall that the intercooler got treated to shed more heat. Did not notice / recall that there was treatment of the pre-cup chamber though ;)


uniquediesel said:
We flowed an aftermarket head on the bench to compare it to at stock AMG head. Same results.
Click to expand...

So aside from ceramic treating, a P-400 head is already as good as it gets when comparing to the additional port work?
 
No Jay, what John is saying is we have flowed about 5-6?? different sets of heads to see if we could have a basic base line of the stock heads.. along with those heads we have flowed ported sets from 2 outside sources in a attempt to make ours as good as they can be and to check my work against others... the stock heads all showed nearly the same flow numbers, with only a few small exceptions.

I will note that this sample set of heads are not intended to be a all out max flow set of heads, these will be in use on my motor, mostly a tow/traveling rig, not a racer, if I ever finish it...

With that said Jay, the coatings won't be added to any set unless the customer wants it, nothing wrong with bare steel, coatings just help...
 
ak diesel driver said:
How much to modify some existing optimser heads would be another ? Lots of us will have?
Click to expand...

One hold back for used heads Les is that the cost of shipping is so high... it cost us 90$ per head one way from SC - TX... we have done this many times over the last few months and it adds up quickly.... then with the cleaning-checking that comes first it just makes the cost of working with used parts way toooo much ...
 
The stock valve sizes for all later 6.2 and 6.5 NA and Turbo engines (including P400) is 1.810" Intake 1.535" Exhaust.

We've also flowed a set of 82 6.2 heads equipped with the 1.653" Exhaust valve, with good results.
 
I used to port and flow heads for a living... I can say I did at one time have a home built flow bench with a dust fan and some basic flow meters in case you want to build your own it can be done.... But nothing will make up for the EGR ports down fall... Unless someone is willing to grind that out until the either hit something or dont...
 
Well it's almost time for a update to this thread... I don't have pics handy right now but will get some soon..

Basically I ruined 2K worth of heads not counting all the added cost for shipping, testing, etc..... so about 3500$ hole...

I broke through a exhaust runner and it's not fixable.... I will be using this head to finish some testing on the flow bench anyway.. going to finish the holes I didn't ruin and finish the coatings & retest for the result's.

I did purchase another set and will carry on and eat the loss as R&D does cost something in my world...

During our testing we tested several other porters work and found Pen diesel had good numbers on the intake side but needed more exhaust work.

So, this time Pen's porting shop is providing the raw porting and I will finish the exhaust side as I had better numbers than they did.... this time I won't get so aggressive where I did last time...

Now I have a set of P heads to play with and cut up if I want.....

The plan is to finish the holes that were flowed the first few times as that head isn't hurt, I'll do my way of unshrouding, my coatings, and send it one last time to flow, then I will have what I started out looking for. true before during & after numbers....

I know no one cares about good flowing heads in this "circle" but the info will be here anyway.... at least someone is tiring..

I started out with intentions of showing all data good & bad in this project and I will soon be finished....

The ugly picture proof will be coming soon....
 
be interesting to see how much material there is around the seats. I believe optimizer heads are the same casting number so it would let people know if it's safe to put in hardened seats in their optimizer heads
 
Ak, the bad with that is that the seat area in gep/stock type heads is that without a hardened seat they induction harden the area where the seat would be.... to cut that area out still leaves the hardened cast iron, witch naturally is brittle, hence the cracking around the valves, one side is hard in a very thin place beside a soft area... going to crack at some point no matter what...

The P heads aren't induction hardened anywhere so they are not pron to the brittle areas .....

They are the same bare head only P heads get 2 seats vs others get 1 & induction on the other... it's a cost vs return to the makers I guess..

I will be cutting the broke head apart just to confirm anyway.

I also plan to cut it apart and coat some runners with the thermal barrier and send the samples to a few so others can do their own heat test... Will, you will be one of my testers if you want to....
 
sctrailrider said:
I know no one cares about good flowing heads in this "circle" but the info will be here anyway.... at least someone is tiring..

I started out with intentions of showing all data good & bad in this project and I will soon be finished....

The ugly picture proof will be coming soon....
Click to expand...

As for not caring I suspect that isn't it generally & it's only my opinion the effort is excessive however I do commend you because you've gone where no one has in those 6.5 td heads....
 
Hey! That's CDO- alphabetically listed is standard!

Seriously I really would like to see dyno number out of interest. It's one of those things that really can't hurt. It's only a case of justifying it. Your ceramic coating is a given also. I just need to get my finances back in order somehow.
 
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