Going mechanical and ...possibly compound turbos??

[3500_6.5]

I have decided to cut my losses with the electronic "power" build and go mechanical. Just not going to get the power I was wanting out of the electronic setup. I had decided on the Moose pump when I first decided to go mechanical. Can't beat the price at under $800 for 120-130cc db2 pump. Was planning on running that and my ATT and figured it would be a pretty nice setup. However, I came across R&D and found that they build a pump that is capable of up to 180cc of fuel... They have two versions, 150cc and 180cc. It's over double the price but I am selling off some things and will have enough extra money to maybe splurge for the pump. However, if I go that route, I am not so sure the turbo will be efficient enough to burn all the fuel and keep drive pressures down. So, if I end up with this pump, I will be looking into a compound setup. Since there is an array of Holsets available and seems that there are tons of combinations to choose from, I was think of going with them. My problem is that I don't really know a whole lot about them. I have been reading up on them but it seems there are so many different Holset's people are running that its hard to really figure out what is what and what might work best. I was originally thinking of running a hx35 and hx50. From what I have heard of the hx35 it seems to be a fairly quick spooling and efficient turbo. And the hx50 should be plenty big enough to give it a nice gradual boost as rpms climb. But I know there are different housings and such that can be ran on the hx35 and I am sure the same goes for the hx50.

So basically what I am looking for here is any input from guys that know a great deal about the Holsets. If anyone has some helpful tips or suggestions with the turbos or if you think its a bad combo. I'm all ears. This will be the first compound setup I have done and is by far the most extreme I've gone with a 6.5. So I want to make sure I am getting the turbo selection right on this. Don't want to be buying more turbos than I have to...

I am not dead set on the compound turbos or even the RD4 pump, but it is definitely looking like it could be a possibility. Hopefully will know for sure within the next week which route I will be going. But I guess that will also depend on what feedback I get from all the turbo guys out there. Thanks for the help!

 

[Burning oil]

Could feed ATT with the stock turbo and work from there, no extra money outlay til you figure out if you like it.

 

[Project57idi]

He could, but he's concerned with the AT&T not flowing enough air. Using it as a the big turbo in a compound setup won't help. With as much fuel as he's talking, an hx40/ht60 setup sounds pretty reasonable.

 

[WarWagon]

Why screw around with twins when you can just drop a BD Diverter Valve on the larger turbo? A HX40II is too small for this project as it runs out of air with a 'small' DS4 IP in the upper RPM. The ATT flows more air than the HX40II esp near redline engine RPM. At least in my experience with them. I had near the same HP/TQ using 23 LBS of boost with HX40II and only 14 LBS of boost with the ATT.

Then if the ATT runs out of air drop a even bigger turbo on the BD valve. You could also request one of the out of spec larger ATT housings like member 6.5L tested. There is a used BD valve for sale on this forum...

The BD valve difference with a ATT on my engine is from a standing stop passing 2K RPM:
without 2 PSI.
with 10 PSI.

Aneroid. Impossible to spell and used on mechanical Dodge diesels to limit smoke without boost. I would have the Moose pump outfitted with one as Conestoga Diesel Injection told me they could add it to a 6.5 pump. More info:
http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/sh...id-setup-for-Ford-IDI-DB2-s-may-work-on-a-6-5

Porting head work and a different exhaust manifold for the passenger side are some other areas to find more power. Or maybe the fuse in the bottom end or elsewhere in the drive line... :rolleyes5:

 

[devildogadam]

Not to derail your thread but if they can build a mechanical pump up to that kind of fuel rate. What is stopping them from building an electronic pump with similar internals? I am only asking out of ignorance but I don't see why it can't be done. Can anyone set me strait.

 

[turbovanman]

The turbonator boys did the compound thing and they figured an Hy35 is a better smaller turbo, the HX35 was too laggy.

 

[6.5L]

If I can't sell my old setup I am pretty sure I am going to slap a larger compressor wheel in the ATT and compound it with my HX35. I have plenty of room. Although would rather sell the setup.....don't be afraid.......buy it people hahah

 

[uniquediesel]

The Key to CC is RPM.

These advertised fuel rates need to be backed up with RPM.

Otherwise I can tell you I have a DB4 on that makes 215CC of fuel, yeah, you guessed it, at just off idle then it's all downhill from there... The 215 figure is real btw, just not usable.

 

[3500_6.5]

His 110cc 2 plunger pump he says is a flat fuel curve and claims will still only drop to 100cc at 4k rpm. Doesn't say on his 4 plunger pumps. Just says that he uses EDM'd heads and rotors for increased filling at high rpms. Didn't think to ask when I emailed him. Either way, I would assume if the 2 plunger can flow 100cc at 4k then his 150 and 180cc pumps should be able to flow quite a bit more than that at the same rpm. Haven't gotten to indepth with it since I have not 100% decided what I plan to do. Going with one of those pumps will require a lot more time and money to handle it. A 120cc pump I think would be a little more doable with the setup I already have and much cheaper.

As far as the exhaust manifolds, I have plans to experiment with some header style manifolds I located that I think I can fab up to work. Intake and heads will also be ported/polished when the other engine goes in. The reason I don't want to go with the ATT, if I go with compounds, instead of an hx is bc it is non wastegated. If max efficient boost is say 25 psi(I have no idea what the actual max efficient boost number really is, just a guess) but it is pushed up to 30psi or more, I have no control over it. It will just go as high as it can spin. But if an hx35 or 40 has a similar effeciency, I can set the wastegate to open at that point. Then the larger turbo will continue to push boost beyond that point and both stay within their most efficient ranges. And having the larger turbo wastegated as well allows me to keep max overall boost in check. The diverter valve is an alternative, probably easier to set up, but that would still leave me with the question of what single turbo would be able to effeciently get the air into the cylinders to burn all the fuel. I think the ATT should work well with the Moose pump, but I'm not sure if it could handle much more than that.

And finally, I am not sure on the electronic pumps. From all the things I have been told, I think it is a combination of tuning limitations, pump electronics limitations and mechanical limits of the pump. Heath has a new DS4 Merlin pump that is supposed to be modified to push up to 400hp, but haven't seen or heard of anyone running it to see how it does. I think DS4's should be able to be built to put out a lot more fuel, but I don't think the demand is there. The mechanical pumps are being modified bc of marine applications and bc the Ford guys run them and there is a big market for them there. The Moose pump and the guys at R&D both build these pumps for Ford idi's, but given the pumps are virtually the same, the internal parts can be used in our pumps as well.

 

[turbovanman]

You can get away without a gated turbo by using an external gate.

 

[6.2 turbo]

I ran a single hx 52,it would light as early as 1800 rpms . Also ran a hx 55 that lit around 2500 rpms . When you have a lot of fuel the bigger turbos light real nice as a single.

 

[6.5L]

Slap my Diverter Valve on those bad boys and I bet it would be one hell of an impressive show

 

[3500_6.5]

True, guess I didn't think of that. But would require some more work and more bulky parts. Not sure how much room I will have if I'm already crammy two turbo's in there the way it is. Something worth looking into for sure though.

 

[3500_6.5]

That post was in reference to the external wastegate^

 

[3500_6.5]

I thought of just using one single bigger turbo. I just don't know how the fuel curve would be on these bigger pumps and don't want to be dumping a bunch of fuel in too early and not have enough air early enough to burn it. The diverter valve would be something that could be added on after the fact with not too much trouble if it ended up needing more air sooner though...

 

[Jorge6.5]

You should consider doing some research on compounds. There's more to it then just bolting on a small turbo and a big turbo. You can start by checking out the compound thread on the dieselplace web site

 

[3500_6.5]

I understand there is more to it than just bolting a small and big turbo on, that's why the original question was asking for input from those who know a lot more than I do about the Holset turbos. From what I know about them, it would seem an hx35 and 50 would be a decent combination. And I was thinking Holsets bc they are readily available, good turbos and are easy to come by. But I was looking for more input on it or if someone had a better suggestion than what my original thoughts were for what I would be running.

 

[625fireman]

Another thought....what about running 2 ATT's one on the drivers side and one on the pass side. IIRC Heath did dual turbos like this. Some else here was working on something like this too but dont remember who.

 

[Burning oil]

I thought about that also, but pepole that know more than me said 4 cyl would not drive the ATT. A good choice might be 2 GM-8s?

 

[turbovanman]

Another thought....what about running 2 ATT's one on the drivers side and one on the pass side. IIRC Heath did dual turbos like this. Some else here was working on something like this too but dont remember who.

8 cylinders seems hard to light one off at lower rpm, can't imagine 4 cylinders trying to drive just one.

I thought about that also, but pepole that know more than me said 4 cyl would not drive the ATT. A good choice might be 2 GM-8s?

Its been done by "saabinator" on the dieselplace, he said they were a bit laggy but was happy so far IIRC.

I ran a single hx 52,it would light as early as 1800 rpms . Also ran a hx 55 that lit around 2500 rpms . When you have a lot of fuel the bigger turbos light real nice as a single.

Damn,

True, guess I didn't think of that. But would require some more work and more bulky parts. Not sure how much room I will have if I'm already crammy two turbo's in there the way it is. Something worth looking into for sure though.

Not really, you simply weld a flange on the turbo, IE the turbine housing, bolt on the wastegate and vent to atmosphere, "screamer" pipes rock, put on one my minivan, my fuel economy dropped as I couldn't stay off the loud pedal, :rof: