ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
Even better is to have them check the flywheel balance and give you a number so you can make a new one match it.
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Emmott's Initiation
- Thread starter emmott
- Start date
Got my block back again, total seal #2 rings and #1 rings are now gapped. AMS edmonton did it and billed an hour. They left the #1 rings in the cylinders rather than put number tags on them. Seems like a smart enough idea. The gapless rings were bagged but not numbered, so I assume it doesn’t matter which rings go with which grooves and in what cylinder.
I hope to begin assembling the block tomorrow. Thanks to Will L, I can torque the bottom end to a clamping strength that makes sense.
This will be my first engine assembly, I plan to do it right so it will probably take a few days
I hope to begin assembling the block tomorrow. Thanks to Will L, I can torque the bottom end to a clamping strength that makes sense.
This will be my first engine assembly, I plan to do it right so it will probably take a few days
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Will L.
Well-Known Member
Time out boss. 2 issues before you use those numbers.- THEY ARE NOT YET SAFE. Umm, maybe.
The splayed mains outside are at an angle so clamp force will be less than if it were vertical for force against crank. Not sure how much that affects your torque, if at all.
I am STILL trying to get through engineering of stud tourqe- note I never put down final useable numbers yet. You can use what you figure is best, however ARP engineers flat out REFUSE to accept any torque less than their recommendation because although the clamp force meets what we require to not damage our blocks and hold the crank load, it requires an exact amount of torque to cause binding on the threads and keep the nuts from coming loose and ARP normally tests for lower tolerances. AINT THAT A NIGHTMARE!!! And still the biggest reason I have no progress to show on my engine. I am waiting to talk to one other engineer there that is NOT SUPPOSED to help me, but he might- if I can get ahold of him. But only getting ahold of the current boss and he is basically lawyered up
And with the torque having been done on arp magic lube- cant use thread locker liquids. Because nordlocks add friction to tightening, can’t just swap in those instead of arp flat washers. If I had known ARP would stop helping at the point they did, I would have done one more set of testing with nordlocks and been done. SMH.
Adding a second nut, mechanical crimp lock nut. It could also drilled for safety wire. The whole concern is: could the nuts loosen and come off the studs from vibration. Several people have said it should be ok, but not anyone from ARP. If we could find ANY instructions from ARP where the same 12mm and 10mm studs are used at less than ARP MAX TORQUE recommendation- then they will obviously be good down to that spec.
I know Bill Heath and John from Quadstar lower the spec on the 10 mm for example. But no one had the load testing done afaik. They have done experimenting and have had to change their specs as failures occurred. So no telling when the next may occur.
So if any yall can dig up ARP specs for anything using those two sizes - PLEASE jump in and HELP, Because that would show lower number is ok, and the dude I keep getting at ARP is just saying this could happen in order to get someone to fork out the $10k for testing.
IF you are convinced the nuts wont come loose- then run it.
I have found so far one set of instructions that say the 12mm are ok at 100 lbs. so ones like this, (but maybe post them on the theead with the testing I did)
The splayed mains outside are at an angle so clamp force will be less than if it were vertical for force against crank. Not sure how much that affects your torque, if at all.
I am STILL trying to get through engineering of stud tourqe- note I never put down final useable numbers yet. You can use what you figure is best, however ARP engineers flat out REFUSE to accept any torque less than their recommendation because although the clamp force meets what we require to not damage our blocks and hold the crank load, it requires an exact amount of torque to cause binding on the threads and keep the nuts from coming loose and ARP normally tests for lower tolerances. AINT THAT A NIGHTMARE!!! And still the biggest reason I have no progress to show on my engine. I am waiting to talk to one other engineer there that is NOT SUPPOSED to help me, but he might- if I can get ahold of him. But only getting ahold of the current boss and he is basically lawyered up
And with the torque having been done on arp magic lube- cant use thread locker liquids. Because nordlocks add friction to tightening, can’t just swap in those instead of arp flat washers. If I had known ARP would stop helping at the point they did, I would have done one more set of testing with nordlocks and been done. SMH.
Adding a second nut, mechanical crimp lock nut. It could also drilled for safety wire. The whole concern is: could the nuts loosen and come off the studs from vibration. Several people have said it should be ok, but not anyone from ARP. If we could find ANY instructions from ARP where the same 12mm and 10mm studs are used at less than ARP MAX TORQUE recommendation- then they will obviously be good down to that spec.
I know Bill Heath and John from Quadstar lower the spec on the 10 mm for example. But no one had the load testing done afaik. They have done experimenting and have had to change their specs as failures occurred. So no telling when the next may occur.
So if any yall can dig up ARP specs for anything using those two sizes - PLEASE jump in and HELP, Because that would show lower number is ok, and the dude I keep getting at ARP is just saying this could happen in order to get someone to fork out the $10k for testing.
IF you are convinced the nuts wont come loose- then run it.
I have found so far one set of instructions that say the 12mm are ok at 100 lbs. so ones like this, (but maybe post them on the theead with the testing I did)
MrMarty51
Well-Known Member
I am curious at the polishing of the crank.
Seems I have read several warnings, in this and a couple other forums, to never polish these cranks as they are coated and with the coating removed, the polished surfaces will destroy the bearings.
Or is that for crank grinding only ?
Seems I have read several warnings, in this and a couple other forums, to never polish these cranks as they are coated and with the coating removed, the polished surfaces will destroy the bearings.
Or is that for crank grinding only ?
Will L.
Well-Known Member
It is grinding and people get it messed up.
There is a hardening process(not coating) that only goes a few mills deep.
You can’t polish that away. But you can grind it away. If the crank is ground, it should be re-heat treated for longest life.
Otherwise if it is ground, it will still operate fine- but the life span of it and the bearings will be shortened. How short vs the cost becomes the issue. We did it to a couple 6.5s that they got scratched- engine of one went 50, 000 ish miles and died from cracked head & coolant into cylinder. The other one truck was sold after about 60,000.
With the advancement of bearing coatings-I would cut one and run coated oversized bearings if it was regular build and not wanting to throw in $.
There is a hardening process(not coating) that only goes a few mills deep.
You can’t polish that away. But you can grind it away. If the crank is ground, it should be re-heat treated for longest life.
Otherwise if it is ground, it will still operate fine- but the life span of it and the bearings will be shortened. How short vs the cost becomes the issue. We did it to a couple 6.5s that they got scratched- engine of one went 50, 000 ish miles and died from cracked head & coolant into cylinder. The other one truck was sold after about 60,000.
With the advancement of bearing coatings-I would cut one and run coated oversized bearings if it was regular build and not wanting to throw in $.
MrMarty51
Well-Known Member
When and if, it ever comes time to rebuild the engine in my truck, I would like to grind the crank, then, like bore the block so there would be no mix and match when sizing bearings.
For sure the rotating assemblies would be balanced, crank, rods and pistons.
I like what You have had done with Your enjun.
For sure the rotating assemblies would be balanced, crank, rods and pistons.
I like what You have had done with Your enjun.
If ARP instructions for 12mm nuts/studs go as low as 100 ft-lbs, and the equivalent load cell torque with ARP studs and lube for the inner bolts on 6.5 blocks is 96 ft-lbs, the inner bolts are probably within safety margin for binding of threads. Heck, I'd be comfortable with torqueing the inner cap nuts to an even 100 ft-lbs. It's the outer bolts that have an ARP load cell equivalent torque under 100 ft-lbs that we are unsure will bind right?
@Will L. I had an idea to bind the outer ARP nuts in place while still using ARP lube and less torque than 100 ft-lbs on the outer cap nuts.
All the outer studs from Quadstar's kit have enough fine thread to fit two nuts on all 5 main caps.
After using ARP lube and torquing all ARP nuts to equivalent load cell spec, install stover locknuts on the outer cap studs after the ARP nuts.
Use a low profile combination wrench to hold the arp nut from turning, while torqueing the stover bolt onto the nut.
The stover lock nut would need turned until it is tight with the ARP nut so the nuts bind to each other on the stud and the low-profile combination wrench can slide off the 12 point nut through the 6-point stover lock nut. A low profile combination wrench would be required so that the stover lock nut does not bind against the wrench.
Any reasons not to do this? As long as the ARP nut does not turn after it is installed the clamping force should be within the range GM intended?
@Will L. I had an idea to bind the outer ARP nuts in place while still using ARP lube and less torque than 100 ft-lbs on the outer cap nuts.
All the outer studs from Quadstar's kit have enough fine thread to fit two nuts on all 5 main caps.
After using ARP lube and torquing all ARP nuts to equivalent load cell spec, install stover locknuts on the outer cap studs after the ARP nuts.
Use a low profile combination wrench to hold the arp nut from turning, while torqueing the stover bolt onto the nut.
The stover lock nut would need turned until it is tight with the ARP nut so the nuts bind to each other on the stud and the low-profile combination wrench can slide off the 12 point nut through the 6-point stover lock nut. A low profile combination wrench would be required so that the stover lock nut does not bind against the wrench.
Any reasons not to do this? As long as the ARP nut does not turn after it is installed the clamping force should be within the range GM intended?
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Will L.
Well-Known Member
Stover nut is the name I couldn’t remember when I said -second mechanical crimp lock nut.
Thats the same thought a couple other guys here had. A while back when I was talking to them about this issue. Yes it is probably the best solution.
Adding safety wire to the stover nut would be a secondary safety to the stover.
Thats the same thought a couple other guys here had. A while back when I was talking to them about this issue. Yes it is probably the best solution.
Adding safety wire to the stover nut would be a secondary safety to the stover.
- Staff
- #50
So when your jam (stover) nut is tight enough to go past the torque of the original nut but still won't line up with the flats, what are you gonna do to get the thin wrench off?
MrMarty51
Well-Known Member
I imagine the open end of the thin wrench should be the same thickness as the box end, so, just flip the wrench around and use the open end.
If it is not thin enough, then take it to the grinder and make it thin enough.
I have had to use this method several times during My career.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
I think he is saying since the arp nut is 12 point, cant use a box end on bottom nut and remove it after top nut is on.
The open end wrench won’t function on 12 point nut.
You the box end wrench to make it into an open end.
The open end wrench won’t function on 12 point nut.
You the box end wrench to make it into an open end.
MrMarty51
Well-Known Member
I just checked, the arp nuts have a very tiny head.
You’d have to cut a low profile box end in half and clamp the halves over the ARP nut to hold it. Or grind a cheap regular box end to a lower profile and cut it into two halves. You'd probably have to grind a flat spot on the outside of the halves so there would be a clamping surface.
Does an ARP nut have to be used, or would any grade ≥10.8 nut with a larger head size be ok to use as the first nut? Would it have to be a flange nut? As long as the contact area between the first nut and washer is about the same as ARP it would not throw off the torque value vs clamping force, right?
You’d have to cut a low profile box end in half and clamp the halves over the ARP nut to hold it. Or grind a cheap regular box end to a lower profile and cut it into two halves. You'd probably have to grind a flat spot on the outside of the halves so there would be a clamping surface.
Does an ARP nut have to be used, or would any grade ≥10.8 nut with a larger head size be ok to use as the first nut? Would it have to be a flange nut? As long as the contact area between the first nut and washer is about the same as ARP it would not throw off the torque value vs clamping force, right?
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Will L.
Well-Known Member
clearance of thread fitment changes torque. The added or reduced drag makes a lot of difference- hence the use of their lube vs motor oil changes torque spec.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
What if you ground 2 wrench flats on the sides of the ARP fastener? As tough as those bolts are supposed to be you should be able to grind 2 minor flat spots enough to hold with an open end wrench but still torque them with a good fitting socket.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
SK ratcheting flare nut wrenches.
Thanks Will, I ordered an imperial set (they didn’t have metric on their website. Slow though, been two weeks since purchase and they still haven’t shipped.
In the meantime I’m assembling and will add the stover lock nuts before the pan goes on
In the meantime I’m assembling and will add the stover lock nuts before the pan goes on