Deer strike catches up with me? Plenty O Questions!

[jmiller]

I caught a couple deer last fall, one of which snapped my oil cooler. In which I pumped all two gallons on the ground.

After bypassing the oil cooler and dumping two gallons in the pan, I had good oil pressure and drove it.

Fast forward the last 10,00 miles.
I've been watching the oil pressure pretty closely. When its hot and idling, the pressure is usually around 35 to 45psi, at cruise 55 to 60psi.

Last week, I started hearing a new noise. Is sounds like a thumping sound that is isolated to the right bank. Real soft, but noticeable. Friday night, Idle oil pressure had dropped, to around 25psi or so. I'm thinking tow? I make it home, no real change in the engine sound but a "C" load of concern. I started the engine, cold oil pressure is normally pegging the oil pressure gauge. Even after the accident, it was still around 75psi or higher.

When I started it Saturday morning, cold oil pressure is around 60 - 65psi.


I'm doing the fix verses replace debate now! While that debate rages in my head, I'm thinking about doing a bottom end in frame.

Drop the axle, the pan and inspect / replace the bearings.

Thoughts / recommendations?

Bearing recommendations? Clevite, King, Seal Power?

I suspect the noise is from a piston contacting the head, if a bearing is spun, should I pull and replace that piston?

Are the bottom end fasteners TTY?

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

If oil pressure is down and it's making noise, it's to late for an in frame bearing change. Once the noise starts that's normally a spun bearing. As for bearings, I use ACL now. I used to use CLEVITE ONLY, but after getting 2 bad sets from them in the last 3 years(and having to pull engines back out to fix them), I now use ACL. As for SEALED power, I have had a 100% failure rate with them so I will NEVER use another set of them.

 

[Paveltolz]

Previous owner of my engine will tell you, 'use King bearings in a diesel motor and win a new crank shaft and other parts too. At your expense.'

 

[schiker]

Those numbers are still pretty high aren't they. But if they are dash guage numbers I expect they are higher than actual. That is ok too as you don't have to have that much oil pressure isn't spec roughly 10 psi per 1000 rpm. Might take an oil sample and see if it has elevated levels of metals from bearings.

 

[Will L.]

It's a gamble to not pull it out and apart. If you do it now you have the best chance of less damage to main components. Otherwise pull apart pan, valve covers, etc looking for a minor problem. If nothing obvious you'll need to pull it.

That is what I was faced with and am SO glad I tore mine down. Spun center cam bearing and the block was ok. If I ran for another couple hundred miles it would have been a 800# scrap of iron.

 

[jmiller]

I've been seeing inconstant oil pressure and voltage readings, especially when the lights are on. This inconsistency seemed to vary, from time to time. Up to a 1.5 v on the volt gauge and 15 psi on the oil gauge. I found my low 25 psi was really closer to 35 / 40 psi.

So my drop in pressure wasn't quite as bad as initially thought. But my cold start pressure is still running lower than before.



On the subject of the inconsistent pressure and voltage readings:
I've found that the instrument cluster internal ground is not very good. I measured 2 ohm's in the ground path, gauge ground to connector contact tab (pin #31).

I clipped a wire under one of the illumination lamps next to the gauge ground to measure the voltage on the ground path. Once I turn on the lights, the oil and voltage gauge readings dropped. The wire showed 0.5v in the instrument cluster ground circuit with the lights on to the cab ground. (should have measured to the battery terminal)

I found the two screws underneath the instrument cluster, holding the dash to the steel under structure, where good for a ground. So I attached the added wire to one of the screws to keep the gauge readings more consistent.

Grounding this added wire made the gauge readings consistent between the lights off verses lights on.

There are two ground pins on the instrument cluster, pin 4 and 31. I did find that the tach and speedo are on the other ground pin (#4).

BTW, the instrument cluster ground is one of the circuits grounded at the back of the head on the engine! (along with a bunch of other modules connected to that same wire.)

So now I have created a ground loop (bad. ok not the best idea) through the cab, to the frame and back to the engine block. If you follow this to resolve a gauge issue of your own, understand your gauges and other items can be impacted by this feedback if one of the paths disrupted.

A better solution would be to find a place to tap back in to the normal ground path to just jump the poor instrument panel flex circuit.

 

[jmiller]

Those numbers are still pretty high aren't they. But if they are dash guage numbers I expect they are higher than actual. That is ok too as you don't have to have that much oil pressure isn't spec roughly 10 psi per 1000 rpm. Might take an oil sample and see if it has elevated levels of metals from bearings.

I should get a sample, I'm on my second oil change since the incident. Went over 6000 on the first change and almost 4000 on this oil. But I'll feel better after a look and a plastigauge reading!

It's a gamble to not pull it out and apart. If you do it now you have the best chance of less damage to main components. Otherwise pull apart pan, valve covers, etc looking for a minor problem. If nothing obvious you'll need to pull it.

That is what I was faced with and am SO glad I tore mine down. Spun center cam bearing and the block was ok. If I ran for another couple hundred miles it would have been a 800# scrap of iron.

The engine only has 44K on it. I expect the rods to have the worst wear, then the mains, then cam. With 10k miles clocked since the oil event, if the damage was severe it should have blown apart by now. Plastigauge will tell the story on the crank bearings.

I'm not convinced the new noise is bottom end in nature. I don't believe its a metalic type of sound, it does seem to go away above 1500 rpm. I've had the engine up to 3K, and that seems to sound normal.

I have noticed more black smoke recently. (especially under harder acceleration) So I do wonder if an injector is acting up. The injectors do have 78K on them.
Based on the oil clearance readings, the next thing needs to be checked. Maybe pull the injectors for testing? Maybe a compression test?

 

[Will L.]

Yeah, do a compression test-always good info. If you can test injectors or have a place that does them resonably low cost check them. Black smoke being new means maybe a leaky or streaming injector. That can work like a drill bit on the top of the piston.

I had a truck I worked on that broke a rocker arm button that made odd noises at idle and cleaned up at higher rpm, funny thing was it was caught just for a leaky gasket problem, truck ran ok. got lucky on that one.

As far as the 44,000 miles that isnt far off from where my new engine ate the cam bearing. Thanks for the cheapo bearings GM in the "new and improved" Navistar engines. Funny how They are still using GM cheapest bearings. Dd you do the rebuild, have it done, or crate motor? Where from?

Have you been doing oil samples? If not it will not be very revealing unless you are starting major failure.

 

[btfarm]

I concur a UOA is in order. If it was a spun rod bearing there would be an unquestioned knock. Plastigauge is for re-assembly John. If you drop the pan you'll know whether you have a worn main when you see it (I really doubt you do). Cam bearings are usually very forgiving when they go bad in my experience and usually take out other parts before they give it up.

 

[jmiller]

Oil sample is sent. I should have a report by the end of the week or so.

Pulled the front axle and the pan. Nothing felt loose on the crank. In the pan / pump pick up, I found a few small cast nuggets and a couple small strips of shiny metal. The cast iron might be flashing that broke free, the biggest was maybe 0.060". The shinny strips, I found stuck in the oil pickup, 1/8" wide, 3/16" long, a few thou thick, not sure were they are from.

Checked oil clearance on rod #1, 0.002". It was too hot and Father's day to get any farther, not to mention the oil drip on the forehead, between the eyes.

Further updates, pictures and specs as they come available.

Speculations, any bets?
Bearing let go
Fuel in the oil
. . . . .

 

[Will L.]

A dollar to a doughnut says you have 3 metals about to read high, spun bearing, and beginning of some block scrape that gave you thec cast deposit. Keep us posted...

 

[WarWagon]

Wear goggles when under the truck. It keeps oil and that constant rain of dirt/dust out of your eyes.

 

[Twisted Steel Performance]

Look at the bottom of the piston skirts and crank throws close, there isn't much clearance, if the bearings are loose a piston might be rubbing.....

Waiting to see the sample results ......

 

[Husker6.5]

If your AOAP sample comes back (sorry the old Army Maintenance Officer in me, AOAP - Army Oil Analysis Program) that you aren't wearing out a bearing or losing block/piston material, check and see if your vacuum pump isn't beginning to go out. When mine gave up the ghost on my '98, I was hearing a "knocking" noise like what you described from idle up to about 1800-1900 RPM where it went away. I was also experiencing increased black smoking (wastegate actuator wouldn't stay shut because vacuum was too low under moderate or higher acceleration/boost). Hoping for the best on your issue, and let's see if it's the "cheap" option of a Benjamin for a new vacuum pump, or eliminating it for a Turbomaster for really cheap if DIY.

 

[Husker6.5]

Of course when I first saw your thread title two weeks ago, the first thing that crossed my mind was, "How much per hour do they want for a raise and what benefits contribution are they looking for on the health plan." :iamwithstupid::iagree::drama:ostho:fftopic:givemebeer:lame::feedback::bling::rippedhand::hmmm::dot::repost::stupid::ban::joke::werd::hijacked::welcome::liar::tool::welcome2::why::getout::welcome8::thankyou2::hitit::You_Rock_Emoticon::hater::Rudolf And that's my deer strike picket line!:rof:

 

[btfarm]

That's pretty damn funny right :iamwithstupid: up there.


:rof:

 

[jmiller]

That's pretty damn funny right :iamwithstupid: up there.


:rof:

That I must agree

:rof:

 

[jmiller]

Analysis is IN!

Based on my limited knowledge, I'm puzzled now.

The report highlights iron at 181 ppm and chromium at 6 ppm, which are indicated within acceptable limits.

Fuel was <0.1%.

An oil change was not indicated at this time.




Attachment deleted at OP request-btfarm

 

[WarWagon]

As suggested above look at other things like the vac pump. Have you run the engine with the belt off? Broken rocker button?

You may want to edit your address and phone number out of the PDF...

 

[jmiller]

I was in a hurry and had a cased of DA (dumb a) disease this morning.

If a mod would delete the other attachment?


My more pressing concern is the additional drop in oil pressure that came up.

Yes, I checked the vac pump and ran with the belt off, sound was still present. I'll have to pull the valve covers to check the valve train out.