Convince me to/not swap a 02 dmax into my 95 burb

[big blue dsl]

As the title states I am giving this some serious thought, my 95 is in good shape with a low mile engine and t case but the rest of the drivetrain has 420000 km on it I have an opportunity to buy a complete wrecked 02 dmax truck for 3000, or just buy the axles and upgrade my burb from the 3.42 gears that are in it now. I could probably get the 2 axles for about 500. I'm not sure if it is a worthwhile adventure, I plan to tow a 6000lb travel trailer. The dmax truck has 3.73 gears in it. Will that along with an upgraded turbo make it doable in the hills,will the tranny last (4l80e) once I tow with it? Or would I better off taking the dmax route with the Allison and the bigger axles and have basically a 95 dmax burb like thefermanator ? I don't plan on selling the truck in the near future so either way I'm willing to invest in it, but , just want to do it the smartest way possible.
Thanks for your opinions

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

If I had it to do over again, even with a bad 6.5 and a 4L80E needing built I would NOT have swapped in the DURAMAX. It is ALOT of work to get it in and fully functioning, and in all honesty it is overkill as these older frames just aren't up to the challenge of that kind of torque. A properly built 6.5 would have done everything I needed my bURB for, and would have cost me probably less than 1/4 of what I have in it(and no I will not admit to just how much I sunk into it as the number scares me). Yes the swap can be done cheaper, but I feel the money would have been better spent on a TED's takeout, ATT, and a good chip.

 

[tanman_2006]

6.5L can handle 6k pounds ok. The 3.42s will be fine depending on the size of the hills you are wanting to climb. You will end up in 3rd on good hills but with a good turbo you should be fine in the higher rpms.

Then again! If you want a big challenge then throw the dmax in! Then the 3.42s wont be a big issue and you would have a sweet burb.

 

[GM Guy]

granted its kind of apples to oranges, but big class 8 fleets these days are down in the 2.81 and 2.93 rear axle ratios. low number tall gears dont mean poor towing performance. yes, you will have to let the 4L80E downshift, but IMO you need to be be downshifting on the hills, or pulling in direct (one gear down, 4th on a 5spd, and 3rd on an auto) in the first place. Having to run in OD all the time is my opinion of poor gearing.

at work, the 98 12 valve dodge cummins has 3.54 gears, and it pulls loaded in 4th, empty in 5th. loaded past 30K combination often. the 03 dodges, same loads, cant hack it, they are getting shifted down to 5th (6 spd manual) because with the 3.73s, OD is too steep for loaded, and direct is too slow, rapping the engine out. there is a reason dodge offers a 3.42 in a 3500 chassis cab.

many folks disagree on my theory, but oh well, I will try it out if I can find a set of gears close and cheap.

if you dont agree, what state are you in? I want 3.42s to try out pulling heavy.

as far as my personal opinion on the topic of the swap, do as said above, teds motor, ARP hardware, ATT, and other goodies. keep everything else the same.

 

[big blue dsl]

I don't know I pointed mine up some hills in bc this summer just the burb and it was embarrassing , engine fan on and 1100 egt had to back out of the fuel in third with the convertor locked. Granted the gm3 turbo is a big issue but I have doubts of the 6.5s. Pulling power with that low gearing being as it is a big bore short stroke diesel

 

[big blue dsl]

The other thing I was thinking is once I bump up the fuel with a buddy chip($) a hx40($) and four inch exhaust and when the 420000 km trans lunches where am I? Or just bite the bullet on the dmax and leave it stock for 300 hp and 450lb/ft and have it reliable

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

The other thing I was thinking is once I bump up the fuel with a buddy chip($) a hx40($) and four inch exhaust and when the 420000 km trans lunches where am I? Or just bite the bullet on the dmax and leave it stock for 300 hp and 450lb/ft and have it reliable

Stock 02 LB7 is 520(most dyno closer to 550-580) torque, only the DETUNED van engines got the 450 torque with 250HP. It's your truck, but the DMAX is alot of money, and you will have close to 100 hours into it making it fit like it looks like it belongs in there. And some may not believe it, but even the mighty LB7 DURAMAX has to downshift on hills as it's power isn't that impressive down low with 3.42 gears. Mine downshifts pretty easily towing 7500 pounds on interstate overpasses if I'm on the cruise. LLY+ don't suffer this problem, but the LB7's turbo just doesn't boost well down low so they downshift pretty easily to keep it in the power. LLY's reach peak torque around 1800, LBZ's around 1600, but LB7's don't peak until around 2500. 3.73's would have been ALOT better choice even for the BURB.

If your deadset on it, do it. But be ready for a project and a half to get it all in and working like stock. And keep in mind this is not a swap for the timid, and will require a good shop and some fabrication skills to pull it off.

 

[tanman_2006]

granted its kind of apples to oranges, but big class 8 fleets these days are down in the 2.81 and 2.93 rear axle ratios. low number tall gears dont mean poor towing performance. yes, you will have to let the 4L80E downshift, but IMO you need to be be downshifting on the hills, or pulling in direct (one gear down, 4th on a 5spd, and 3rd on an auto) in the first place. Having to run in OD all the time is my opinion of poor gearing.

at work, the 98 12 valve dodge cummins has 3.54 gears, and it pulls loaded in 4th, empty in 5th. loaded past 30K combination often. the 03 dodges, same loads, cant hack it, they are getting shifted down to 5th (6 spd manual) because with the 3.73s, OD is too steep for loaded, and direct is too slow, rapping the engine out. there is a reason dodge offers a 3.42 in a 3500 chassis cab.

many folks disagree on my theory, but oh well, I will try it out if I can find a set of gears close and cheap.

if you dont agree, what state are you in? I want 3.42s to try out pulling heavy.

as far as my personal opinion on the topic of the swap, do as said above, teds motor, ARP hardware, ATT, and other goodies. keep everything else the same.

Slap some 3.42's in and I have a load for you to try to get rolling! My 4.10's lug like a sob pulling on the highway from a dead stop with a slight slope, NO I will not use 4lo to drive on the highway in 110* heat BAD IDEA. I dont doubt you could keep a load rolling once up to speed with 3.42's but a 5speed is worthless at pulling out of a hole with 3.42's. Burning clutches and high reved engine with alot of smoke is what you will end up with. Cummins have the low end torque to do that, 6.5s dont.

3.42's with an auto have a torque converter to build up momentum and can down shift when needed.

Use the OD, thats what its there for. Dont get scared with 3.42's, my tractor weighs twice the weight you are talking about and I still have a 6-7K trailer to add in...

 

[GM Guy]

Tanman, I agree for on the farm use the low gears arent necessarily a bad idea. we have barked the clutch once trying to get a combine out (dead combine we bought for parts) we just spun tires on the 92 HD, and barked the clutch on the 99 hooked to it.

but for hard packed dirt yards and pavement, I want some legs for running. luckily we have enough stinkin trucks to satisy both the farm needs and the pavement pounding needs. My opinion for the 3.42s applied to our pavement pounding needs.

 

[tanman_2006]

Tanman, I agree for on the farm use the low gears arent necessarily a bad idea. we have barked the clutch once trying to get a combine out (dead combine we bought for parts) we just spun tires on the 92 HD, and barked the clutch on the 99 hooked to it.

but for hard packed dirt yards and pavement, I want some legs for running. luckily we have enough stinkin trucks to satisy both the farm needs and the pavement pounding needs. My opinion for the 3.42s applied to our pavement pounding needs.

I deliver hay 100 miles one way. 4.10's and 235/85's havent steered me wrong, ~10mpg pulling 12 bales of hay (1500# each on a light day) at 62mph in OD (cruise set). Couldnt have made it out of 1/2 the driveways Ive pulled out of w/o low gears and would be road kill if I used 4lo then switched to 2hi. This coming summer I am breaking out the Ol' Blue special, our 40ft floater that hauls 17 bales. Ol' Blue hauled that thing to New Mexico 3 times that I can remember loaded both ways, 2 return trips were hauling our matching Case MFW tractors (the one I now own in my sig) and lived in the hay field with this trailer behind it hauling out big squares of alfalfa (had 1500 acres of irrigated alfalfa when I was growing up). Like I said 4.10s are almost to high some times.

 

[WarWagon]

The other thing I was thinking is once I bump up the fuel with a buddy chip($) a hx40($) and four inch exhaust and when the 420000 km trans lunches where am I? Or just bite the bullet on the dmax and leave it stock for 300 hp and 450lb/ft and have it reliable

If you want a Dmax get a crew cab truck with a Dmax in it and be done with it. 2002 isn't a great year for injector issues and PIA injector replacement.

You have no idea what a 6.5 is really capable of with the Factory Equipped Asthma Attack turbo. Throw a big turbo on like the A Team Turbo and you will be able to hold the speed limit on hills towing. My 1993 went from 33 MPH to 43 MPH with fuel and turbo adjustments. After replacing the turbo with an ATT it went to 55 MPH and gained 3 MPG towing. You will need a 4" exaust.

The HX40II is in the middle between the factory turbo and the larger ATT.

Regardless after fixing the turbo and tuning the 6.5 you will be on par with the old Duramax. You will not outrun it and may not keep up, but, you will not have your doors sucked completely off. Cheaper than a swap.

For the $3000.00 Dmax cost you can do an exaust, tune, A Team Turbo Kit, couple of other mods, and have cash left over.

The 4L80E can be rebuilt for $995. Not as strong as an Allison, but, it is behind the Dmax in vans. Decent transmission if the oil is changed every 25K.

 

[Ed HD]

I agree. Either upgrade the 6.5 on the Suburban, or sell it and buy a Duramax pickup. Even Fermanator said he'd have been better off buying a D-max crew cab pickup...

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

I agree. Either upgrade the 6.5 on the Suburban, or sell it and buy a Duramax pickup. Even Fermanator said he'd have been better off buying a D-max crew cab pickup...

That's an understatement. I kick myself now for not fixing the donor truck and throwing a flatbed on it. Would have been ALOT cheaper, and I would have had twice the truck.

 

[tanman_2006]

I fire up my dmax once a week and as far as power goes there is no comparison BUT my 6.5's can do the same job and get better mpg but it does it a bit slower. My sig isnt a good comparison of mpg, my dmax has big tires and alot of wind resistance as well as alot of heavy towing while the 6.5L is mostly an A to B driver.

Parts are cheaper on a 6.5L Burn up a 4l80 and you are out ~$1000 burn up an Allison and you are out ~$4000 for a shop to build it stronger. Kill a water pump on a 6.5 and you can change it out in a couple hours easy, Kill a water pump on a Dmax and you have an all day chore at best (or atleast that was my experience)

 

[Burning oil]

The other thing I was thinking is once I bump up the fuel with a buddy chip($) a hx40($) and four inch exhaust and when the 420000 km trans lunches where am I? Or just bite the bullet on the dmax and leave it stock for 300 hp and 450lb/ft and have it reliable

I am bias, but check out my site for alot of the upgrades you'd need for the 6.5
www.leroydiesel.com

 

[red]

With the weight your looking to pull the 6.5 will be just fine, much cheaper in the long run as well.

 

[big blue dsl]

So after taking all of your opinions and thoughts I have come to my decision.......I'm gonna keep the 6.5 after checking out the numbers and the mileage on the dmax truck (320000 km) its just not economically smart to put the dmax in, I was ok with the hours to swap it in but.... It would probably need injectors and and and, so I will spend money on a much lower mileage engine and much cheaper running gear. Besides I always had a soft spot for the 6.2/5. Thanks lots for your help

Chris

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Put a set of head studs in your 6.5, ATT, and a tune optimized for the ATT and you will have PLENTY of power.

 

[Edzzed]

would he not be better off putting a cummins in or is it about the same 100 hours of work. Were it me, I'd sell my truck, buy a dmax or cummins and be done with it. At least selling your truck means you get some cash for it, you also save the cost of swapping everything and use that cash towards the purchase of a newer truck.

 

[Burning oil]

Mechanical IP Cummins is pretty easy. Ive done one before. Withall the aftermarket support (mounts, adapters...) they just about install themself in a 2wd. 4x4 is more work. 4L80E can be used with a controller like OptiShift (see my web site).
Also, I happen to have most everything for that swap except motor mounts for sale. I have 6BT w/inline-IP, GM adaptor, starter, ring gear, used (like new) OptiShift....