pacificdrumma
Well-Known Member
In regards to the trans, some 1500's had 4L60E's and some had 4L80E's. Im guessing that GM wouldnt put a 60 behind a 6.5 cause they do make SOME torque.
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ATT & FRC-10 Install
- Thread starter bigdaddyinacaddy
- Start date
bigdaddyinacaddy
Obsessed
Well we all thought you were a troll. My bad. Thanks for lookin out for me i guess, but i know it isn't safe to run that high egt for long periods of time. Thats why i was surprised to see 1300 like I did, but its all good now man.
tanman_2006
Just a farm kid...
4l80E is cheaper to rebuild and replace than a NV4500 and clutch. The 4L80 will probably even last longer in extreme situations. I cant deny the feeling of cramming gears and feeling the torque run through the truck but I wouldnt swap out a 4l80 in a DD truck or put one in a race truck. Nv4500 lives well in DD and Towing apps but a clutch/flywheel replacement costs as much as a 4L80 in most cases.
You get the lift pump in then? is the run in vid with new LP?
All factory trucks with auto and 6.5 had a 4L80E.
All factory trucks with auto and 6.5 had a 4L80E.
bigdaddyinacaddy
Obsessed
No... Thought I would add it since I'm doing it tomorrow. I forgot to get fuel lines while I was in town or I would be doing it today
Monarkman
Professional Lurker
I didn't see it mentioned but if you can you should run a prefilter. I killed my frc10 in a little over a year by not having one. Ran intermittent then just quit. When I took it apart it was all scored up inside. I had a frb5 before that and I hope it is still running good for Tanman.
Monarkman
Professional Lurker
Last thing, I highly recommend a blanket for it. I actually could feel a difference with it plus the underhood temp reduction. Even after a long hard pull, I could lay my hand on it. On a non wastegated housing it is a no brainer. I had a walking J and was a nice unit but sure you could get one cheaper on ebay.
Turbine Doc
Just Another Diesel Guy
Funny thing about the ATT installs, they will tell you if willing to listen-look-learn in earnest instead of listening to the "naysayers" that be "hatin on it" that something isn't just right, could be low oil pressure-weak injectors-leaking x-over, weak valve springs, starving for fuel with weak lift pump etc.
ATT requires all available drive gas as there is no WG chamber to "fill" like smaller turbos have so any loss of drive gas that should be there in a healthy engine or restriction to induction air and you will see diminished output. GM-X turbos "hide" issues that are found when installing ATT.
A healthy engine/accessories and a ATT install with a matched program is a thing of beauty.
Monarkman
Professional Lurker
^Exactly. Good flow in and out are mandatory for ATT. When I first installed mine still had stupid SSdiesel hot air intake. Truck didn't like it in the summer. Only good part was being able to get in front of somebody that cut me off or annoyed me for some reason, rap the go pedal and watch the smoke wrap around the windshield and go in the windows. Then I made my homemade cold air with sealed box and 4" piping to it from scoop under front bumper with big aem dry filter. It made a HUGE difference. Buddy had problems with a restictive exhaust keeping him from making boost. All about flow.
Sorry for the misunderstanding over the ATT if it is in order. Get tired of of the drama over it. Understandably that is how it looked.
As far as EGT's are concerned what proof do you offer that high EGT's alone damage the 6.5?
I start with what I call a myth of High EGT's started by the magic melting point of pure aluminum of 1,221°F and aluminum pistons. We are already screwed if that was true because the compression stroke will heat the air in the cylinder to 1292 - 1652 °F. Next we have concern over NOx formation from combustion that becomes rapid after 2800°F. We know we get to that combustion temperature or more because light duty emissions 6.5's have EGR valves and slightly different timing. (I am sure 99% on here don't care about emissions.)
So it is a good thing the pistons are an aluminum alloy with a likely different melting point and are only exposed to this over melting point temperature for at most 3/4 of the combustion cycle and that varies by the position of the piston affecting the amount of pressure (compression/combustion) in the cylinder. Thermal mass, oil cooling, and heat soak barrier of air and carbon on the crown also make a difference. Compression somewhere goes over 1221°F and it is kept higher than that till the intake stroke with EGT's over 1221°F.
You can melt the pistons out of a 6.5. My avatar is one example caused by "advanced timing" from a failed injector. Same quick destruction as pre-ignition in a gas engine where a hole is melted into a piston. The 6.5's ceramic coating protected the piston except on the edge where it started to melt, the oil failed causing scuffing, and it finally locked up. (The engine continued to run with a shattered piston skirt and loose rod and wrist pin.) The PO said the EGT gauge said everything was normal, but there was a funny knocking. So if you advance the timing too much you can melt the pistons. Strangely enough as you advance the timing the EGT goes down. (So does turbo spool quickness from lower heat in the exhaust EGT.)
My other failed 6.5 had a hole burned clean through it in the center of the piston with a crack visible. The first line of thought was "Oh no EGT got too high!" As a manifold was leaking badly, towing hard grades, and smoking with a GM3 this was plausible. Until I went back and looked at the bad oil analysis some 4000 miles before failure. The engine had gotten hot and the defective radiator cap suddenly blew off pressure in a cloud of steam. As the #1 cylinder bank receives the most coolant flow per Heath Diesel article it got cooled the most. So it scuffed a piston by running it out of clearance from shock cooling. The stress cracked the piston and dumped metal into the oil. The lab called over that and said fix EGR and flush the crankcase. EGR soot was from the crack letting soot into the oil as this engine did not have EGR. It also had a puff of blowby from the oil fill cap suddenly that it didn't before. So the piston crack burned through in 4000 miles helped by high load and high fuel. The other 7 pistons were fine. High EGT was not the problem: high ECT and shock cooling was. I pay closer attention to cooling fan clutch life of 5 years max, radiator caps, and ECT now. (A new clutch was on order so not that much of a slacker.)
There is one part that I do worry about and that is the glow plugs. I have experienced glow plug erosion. However I have learned this is from timing that is too far advanced. May have other causes. In the rest of the high EGT 'testing' pushing my luck etc. I have not seen any glow plug erosion.
Other evidence I offer is running the engine hard for 550 miles a day 5 days a week ignoring the EGT limits and sustaining 1350 EGT with a GM3 all damn day. The lower suggestions only gave me heart burn and no damage resulted. I ran this high to get the trailer up the 7% grades and then try and get close to the speed limits. This is done in the dry and hot AZ weather that makes combustion faster and without an intercooler even higher peak combustion temperatures. When I pulled the carpet from the totaled truck the paint was scorched brown where the exhaust down pipe runs close to it. Engine was fine and is still running today. (As an aside when I dropped the ATT on the 1993 the peak EGT went down from 1350 with the GM3 to 1100 with the same fuel settings on the ATT.)
EGT is an absolute measure of when the exhaust turbine in the turbo will melt down. ATT can sustain 1550°F without damage, but, the turbo blanket will scorch at this temp. Sustained this while testing tunes towing a 7% grade WOT. My only concern was the EGT gauge was about to go off scale. This was done with a 6.2 bottom end having non-coated pistons, no piston oil squirts, and if I recall thinner crown thickness than 6.5's.
The turbo keeping heat in the engine like the GM3 does more than the ATT, timing, engine coolant temperature, oil temp, outside air temp, intake air temp, etc. all have an effect on the fine line between a running engine and hot oily parts all over the road. There is no one reading that will melt the engine down. ECT over 210 will crack things, but, EGT is not a hard and fast rule to worry about.
If I find the EGT that actually kills my engine I figure $2K to drop a used 6.2 in. This keeps my concern to a minimum so I can push the engine to get the job done.
Disclaimer: You MPG may vary. I personally fix the stuff I blow up or break and do so on a regular basis. I am on a first name basis with EVERYONE at the local parts store and everyone at the GM dealer parts department. Most months I spend more than a new truck payment on parts. I sent three 6.5's to scrap metal in one year. None were from high EGT. So from the perspective of the 10% of people that are harder on vehicles than the other 90% you have been warned.
Monarkman
Professional Lurker
I am a machinist not a writer and don't always get what I am trying to say across. I don't have any proof high egts kill engines and have no doubt that ATT can take the heat. I just know from my experience with Att he shouldn't have been running that hot empty unless something was off. I was just thinking someone should be telling him things to check instead of telling those egts were ok. I was trying not to start a disagreement by contradicting you and knew Dennis or Tim would be along soon to help. Since I don't have an ATT anymore, didn't know if my advice would be welcome. Mine ran a little warmer but still not that hot when new until it broke in and loosened up a bit. It was stiff out of the box. After he cleaned his filter he came in line with what I saw.
High egts would concern me for a few reasons. Heat transfer to heads causing warping and head gasket problems with the tty bolts especially in heads that are prone to cracking anyway. Could also mean there are other problems like injectors are worn. Could also mean not getting a good burn in cylinder which may lead to wasting fuel and leaving power on the table.
High egts would concern me for a few reasons. Heat transfer to heads causing warping and head gasket problems with the tty bolts especially in heads that are prone to cracking anyway. Could also mean there are other problems like injectors are worn. Could also mean not getting a good burn in cylinder which may lead to wasting fuel and leaving power on the table.
JayTheCPA
Well-Known Member
@Monarkman - Thank you for stepping back in with excellent input. Even without currently having the ATT, relaying personal past experience and qualifying observations (positive or negative) are always a good thing (in my book anyway). :hihi:
tanman_2006
Just a farm kid...
Still going in my 95, I forgot who I bought it from! Lol
I've put 60k on it no prefilter
Sent from: Source Unknown
Excellent point to make as the truck in question didn't have a EGT baseline to go on. EGT can tell you how hard you are working the engine, if the tune is too 'hot' for your goals, or if something needs attention. I have two different engines with different baseline EGT's due to the tunes and differences in the engines. Altitude and other factors change the EGT so much that it is difficult to notice EGT's that are different unless you are in the usual neighborhood you drive in.
Tuning for fuel economy by EGT is the best use of EGT. Knowing to grab a lower gear as EGT and ECT are rising from a slight grade or headwind...
However I can change EGT with fuel settings on the 1993 to go from a 'sane' 1100 EGT to well over 1300 and obtain more power doing so. A rebuilt smaller 6.2 pump and a goal to be as smoke free as practical has limited the power and EGT I run now. The 1550 EGT tune on the 1995 was not something I wanted to subject under hood components near the turbo and exaust to. The hot tune wasn't generating any more power so we used another tune. (Even though everything on the exaust was wrapped.)
The point I am trying to make here is high EGT's are not going to for sure melt the engine down at a specific temperature. IMO as long as ECT is good EGT only indicates how hard you are working the engine. So it is a crusade to end the misconception that a specific EGT temperature is a red line no matter what. All the other parts you are worried about stress from load and power that EGT may indicate, but, change the timing to retarded and EGT's go way up and power/stress goes down.
Another engine may be subject to EGT meltdowns due to design, timing, etc. But, the 6.5 isn't subject to EGT meltdown: I have tried and failed!
bigdaddyinacaddy
Obsessed
Wow, lots of good info here. Thanks Warwagon for that, this is constantly a learning experience for me. Since i never tow maybe i can get a tune hot enough to race my pops duramax (and win) he has a stock lmm.
I quoted you twice. These two statements seem to stand out to me.
Could it be that injecting the diesel sooner, by advancing the timing, results in a cleaner, more complete burn? Thus reducing egt's because combustion is more complete? Diesel has a longer burn, I do know that. This is one of the main reasons our engines are made to only spin a few thousand rpm. Retarding the timing would result in a less complete combustion, forcing the a/f mix out of the cylinder before it is done burning, thus resulting in higher EGT's because it's still trying to burn on it's way out, and reduced power from the incomplete combustion.
Oh and it's pouring rain here today. Ain't that just my luck.
Advancing timing will clear white smoke.
Advancing too much starts to create black smoke.
Timing info here:
http://www.oliverdiesel.com/tech/timing.htm
Advancing too much starts to create black smoke.
Timing info here:
http://www.oliverdiesel.com/tech/timing.htm
bigdaddyinacaddy
Obsessed
Just wanted to let you guys know that I haven't gotten to the pump yet, Thursday my great-grandmother passed on and I've been tied up doin all that. But I plan on doing it sometime this week. Don't forget about me, my tune from Heath should be here any day now. Thanks guys.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
my condolences
hookedup50
Active Member
Sorry for your loss.
pacificdrumma
Well-Known Member
Im sorry to hear about the passing of your great grandmother. Family comes first.