6.9 IDI no start

[BigBlueChevy]

Hey guys,
My part time boss has has an International S1600 with the old 6.9 IDI and a 4 spd manual in it. This past saturday into sunday, we got 14.5" of snow, so I was using that truck to plow all day and night. And all day and night she ran great. Coming home Sunday morning she was still running great.

Minus well just list all the problems while I remember. The engine is ABUSED by the other employee's. Non of the glow plugs work, it requires ether on a cold start(yeah yeah I know I keep telling him:mad2, it has ALOT of blowby / burns oil and damn near impossible to start on a cold day.

Monday morning I got up to get it out of my driveway and get it back to the yard. Nothing. The GCFI popped overnight and shut the block heater off:mad2:. Plugged it back in and came out 4 hours later. Tried to fire it. Still nothing(yes I used ether:mad2:, you have too:mad2::mad2 Plugged the batteries in to charge + my trucks battery to boost it(900cca's). Came back 2 hours later. Still nothing. Aimed the torpedo heater(jet engine looking thing that burns diesel to make heat) into the engine bay and left it for another 2 hours. Engine bay was hot enough to take jackets off and take a nap in:rolleyes5:. Another shot of ether and... nothing! Filled it with oil as I couldn't pick any up on the dipstick

Heres what I've diagnosed so far.
-Clutch is disengaging per service port under truck.
-Fuel tank is half full
-Fuel present at fuel/water separator
-Fuel has pressure after mechanical lift pump on engine
-Fuel present and pressurized after fuel filter.
-Fuel present at high pressure injector lines.
-Starter in engaging flywheel and turning motor.
-no blockage in intake.

Something I noticed. When any other diesel has trouble starting it pours white smoke out the exhaust pipe. There is not one ounce of smoke coming out of those pipes... I have a feeling the lack of oil killed the rings, but I'm trying to see if I'm missing something else along the way. What do you guys think?

 

[ak diesel driver]

try squirting some oil in each cylinder. might raise the compression enough to start it. It really sounds like it's not getting fuel though with no smoke.

 

[BigBlueChevy]

try squirting some oil in each cylinder. might raise the compression enough to start it. It really sounds like it's not getting fuel though with no smoke.

never heard of this method. Should I pour the oil into the intake? There is no other way to get oil into the cylinders since the glow plugs are all swelled and the injectors would need the copper washer replaced.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Have you tried the gas soaked rag on it yet? My neighbor had an old 7.3L that was the same way and I would come over and help him start it that way.

 

[BigBlueChevy]

Well still nothing. We dragged the stubborn thing back to the yard and have had no luck since. Boss said last year he had the same issue, only it wouldn't fire at all when he needed it. Came back on a warmer day and she fired right up.

Fuel shutoff solenoid is opperating. Ether is combusting(you can hear it knock for a few seconds then nothing) so there is some form of compression in there. Gas soaked rag(good suggestion Fermanator) sort of helped it but still nothing. It has oil once again. Going to clean up grounds next chance either of us gets to get rid of large amounts of corrosion on terminals. Other than that we are both still stumped.

I need to get a compression test going on it.

 

[ak diesel driver]

sounds like you'll be getting out those glows after all

 

[BigBlueChevy]

sounds like you'll be getting out those glows after all

its alot easier said than done. Maybe if I'm lucky the glow plug system is inopperable and the glow plugs never lit up so they wont be swelled up. Or shit will have hit the fan and each one will be swelled due to ether:mad2:

Guess I'll just give it a shot and see what happens.

 

[iamdave0887]

My buddies 6.9 had fuel drainback problems and would crank over, fire a few times, and then nothing. He'd kill the batteries trying to start it. After he finally did get it running, it didn't get shut off until it was parked for the night. The next morning, same ordeal.

Possible drainback issues or frozen fuel filter? I'm stumped. my buddies truck was the poster child for abuse and it always ran fine. It leaked so much oil they never had to change it. Just add about a gallon every few days.

Edit: coem to think of it his 6.9 used to eat starters like crazy. Is it cranking fast enough in the cold? If the only variable is temperature change(starts in warmer weather but not in colder weather and ether's is used regardless of outside temps), i'd start there first.

 

[BigBlueChevy]

My buddies 6.9 had fuel drainback problems and would crank over, fire a few times, and then nothing. He'd kill the batteries trying to start it. After he finally did get it running, it didn't get shut off until it was parked for the night. The next morning, same ordeal.

Possible drainback issues or frozen fuel filter? I'm stumped. my buddies truck was the poster child for abuse and it always ran fine. It leaked so much oil they never had to change it. Just add about a gallon every few days.

Edit: coem to think of it his 6.9 used to eat starters like crazy. Is it cranking fast enough in the cold? If the only variable is temperature change(starts in warmer weather but not in colder weather and ether's is used regardless of outside temps), i'd start there first.

I considered fuel drainback as a possible issue. The only problem with that theory is that there is fuel present at the fuel/water seperator. The mechanical fuel pump is pushing quite a healthy bit of fuel, there is fuel under pressure after the fuel filter and into the IP. And none of the filters where frozen. Hell, just to check a fill one up with 50/50 blend of diesel 911 and tried again. Nothing.

It doesn't eat starters I know that. I'm not quite sure what speed the engine is cranking at (the rpm gauge is broken to:rolleyes5 but it seems to be moving the forward accessorizes and fan at a decent speed. Though I can't say if that decent speed is good enough.

Problem he had last year was it didn't start in the ice cold, but come a warmer day, he gave it a shot of ether and it fired right up. This year i showed him the magic of a block heater and it fired up when we needed it. After being run all day and night-not start.

I'm going to work on getting my truck back on the road and the axle swap finished first. Then I dig deeper into that thing and try and diagnose more.

 

[iamdave0887]

Your sure the fuel shutoff solenoid is working? It's a DB2 IP like the 6.2, only backwards. Throttle linkages on passenger side instead of drivers. I believe it even spins in the opposite direction(clockwise vs counterclockwise)

Maybe the IP is dead. That or you've got too little compression to ignite the diesel. Maybe it's just too far gone due to the ether useage?

 

[Acesneights1]

Ether is bad. They should never have let it get to this point. No smoke during cranking is no fuel or no compression. I would do a compression test. Pull the dipstick and smeel the oil and see if it smells like diesel . Ether should never be used on any diesel especially one with glow plugs. If I read your post correctly you cracked the injector lines and had fuel ? As Dave stated if you had fuel drainback they can be a real bitch to get started. You could pressurize the fuel tank with about 2-5 psi of shop air. It sounds like cracked rings and no compression. I think I would start there and while you have the glows out to do the compression test , if it passes you can replace them. I believe they use the same 60gs that the 6.2/6.5s use. 6.9 is a pretty simple engine. You need fuel, compression and air. It is possible to see fuel at the injectors but the IP to weak to pop the nozzles but given the description of the treatment of this truck, that is not where I'd be looking first. It's been a long time since i have done an IP on a 6.9 I don't remember if the IP is bolted to the cam gear or uses a keyway. If it's a keyway it could be spun.

 

[BigBlueChevy]

Ether is bad. They should never have let it get to this point. No smoke during cranking is no fuel or no compression. I would do a compression test. Pull the dipstick and smeel the oil and see if it smells like diesel . Ether should never be used on any diesel especially one with glow plugs. If I read your post correctly you cracked the injector lines and had fuel ? As Dave stated if you had fuel drainback they can be a real bitch to get started. You could pressurize the fuel tank with about 2-5 psi of shop air. It sounds like cracked rings and no compression. I think I would start there and while you have the glows out to do the compression test , if it passes you can replace them. I believe they use the same 60gs that the 6.2/6.5s use. 6.9 is a pretty simple engine. You need fuel, compression and air. It is possible to see fuel at the injectors but the IP to weak to pop the nozzles but given the description of the treatment of this truck, that is not where I'd be looking first. It's been a long time since i have done an IP on a 6.9 I don't remember if the IP is bolted to the cam gear or uses a keyway. If it's a keyway it could be spun.

Trust me buddy. I tell him left and right how bad it is to use ether. I've had the conversation with him about it more times than I remember. But to anybody who owns a business, time is money. He decided to go with operating the truck the way he did. Unfortunately, we use ether on the 7.3 PSD dump truck here because, again, bad glow plugs.

Let me ask this while its on my mind. There is fuel present coming from the injector lines and everything after that, so fuel starvation ISN'T THE ISSUE. However, when we do try to turn the truck over, blowby immediately starts coming out of the oil fill tube. Based on this I'm going to have to agree with you that all or most of the compression is being dumped into the crankcase. Given the fact that ether is needed to start it every single day during its work days, and the truck ran very low on oil when I brought it home after the night of plowing, should I basically expect that the rings are in fact toast?

Again my focus isn't on this truck as I'm trying to finish the axle swap first. However after its completed I'll have time to head over to the yard and diagnose more thoroughly as compared to now where its a half hour here and a half hour there.

 

[jerrymp]

Well, if it started when it was warm, then put it in the shop over nite and turn the heat up.

 

[BigBlueChevy]

Well, if it started when it was warm, then put it in the shop over nite and turn the heat up.

:welcome2: to the Truck Stop there Jerry. That's quite an interesting first post. However I'm afraid its not as simple as "stuffing" it into the shop and turning up the heat. The first being that we don't have a "shop" per say its a yard, and the only "shop" there is that truck wouldn't fit the nose in. Its not a pickup truck its a Medium duty Dump truck.

I'm afraid that external temperature isn't the issue right now. I had that thing plugged in for 5 hours with the block heater with the torpedo heater heating the engine bay for 2 hours. The engine bay alone was warm enough to take my jacket off in and take nap. The block was hot to the touch as well thanks to a combination of both. Not even ether is getting it to start.


As an update I went over to the yard last weekend in "warmer" weather. Tested the fuel shutoff solenoid and confirmed that wasn't the issue. This leaves one of three things, injection pump just died on the spot, exhaust is clogged somehow, or the rings are shot.

 

[iamdave0887]

Does it have a soot trap? Could be clogged if it does have one. Medium duty would tell me it's exempt from the typical emissions BS that the light duty ones have to have. Just tossing this into the mix.

You could pull the IP and have it tested at a diesel shop. I've seen many 6.9 and 7.3 IDIs in the local junkyard lately. Probably a dozen or so. Might be able to get an IP off one of them for cheaper than testing the old one.

Have access to a comp tester? How's the engine sound when cranking over. Does it sound like the GPs are out. Spins effortlessly? If not then you've got some compression. Exactly how much compression, only a comp gauge will tell you.

 

[BigBlueChevy]

Does it have a soot trap? Could be clogged if it does have one. Medium duty would tell me it's exempt from the typical emissions BS that the light duty ones have to have. Just tossing this into the mix.

You could pull the IP and have it tested at a diesel shop. I've seen many 6.9 and 7.3 IDIs in the local junkyard lately. Probably a dozen or so. Might be able to get an IP off one of them for cheaper than testing the old one.

Have access to a comp tester? How's the engine sound when cranking over. Does it sound like the GPs are out. Spins effortlessly? If not then you've got some compression. Exactly how much compression, only a comp gauge will tell you.

Always a good helper Dave. Thats some good suggestions there. Oh lets see...

Technically this truck has "true duals" and no soot trap so that's out of the equation. I want to get the IP tested, or at least see if I could pull one from an older truck somewhere to get it back on the road at least. Tried starting it again. No fuel coming out of the lines. Maybe... a drop. then nothing. Filters aren't clogged but I'll check again... Maybe it is the IP.

All the GP's are shot. nothing. Zip. Like Diesel slugs were? Yeah, they don't work. It needs ether to start. It seems to be turning over quite effortlessly as compared to before. I'll have to start pulling shit apart and seeing what I can find. I think he has a compression tester, so I can try that this weekend after big Blue is road ready again.

 

[iamdave0887]

I'd lend you my comp tester but it would do you no good. I only have the 6.2/6.5 glowplug adapter. No ford adapters.

If it's spinning easier that's a bad sign. Could be lack of compression. Any smoke from the tails at all? Does the oil smell Diesel-y or seems to be too thin?? if the IP is injecting fuel and it's not getting burned it'll wash the cylinder walls down and end up in the oil.

Sounds like this engine has been an Ether addict for too long and that's killed it. I know you know what i've typed below and have tried to tell the owner of said truck. Maybe he'll listen to you now?

Too much Ether, or improper use of it can bend connecting rods ever so slightly, which in turn drops your compression since the piston doesn't come up as far. Lower compression means you need the ether more, which in turn bends the rods more, and the comp drops yet again. More ether, more damage, and the cycle goes on and on. Dangerous cycle that ends up in dead engine.

 

[jerrymp]

Thanks for the welcome. First posts are like belly buttons. Everybody has one.

My first diesel truck was a 1988 F250 dually. Late 80's were the heyday of conversions and several companies took F250's and made duallys out of them. It was a sweet truck. 6.9 with a Banks turbo and a full set of gauges. Wish I still had that truck. Would run all day long right up against the rev limiter and made black smoke like you would not believe. Still have a soft spot for 6.9s.

From what I have read here so far, sounds like the ether and gas soaked rag make it want to run. So I would hazard the guess that you have some combustion going on. True duals and no smoke is troubling. Ought to be something coming out. Anything is possible but both sides of the exhaust getting blocked tight at the same time seems improbable. Add in the blowby out the oil fill tube and the disappearing oil make me think you have more than one issue here.

But all this is second-hand-long-distance-can't-get-my-hands-on-it-guessing. Which is useless. I do however suggest you go over to thedieselstopdotcom and get into their 6.9 forum. Lots of people over there who love these old 6.9s and you might get more info.

 

[Acesneights1]

6.9s and 6.5/6.2s use same glows. Pressure in the crankcase is a bad sign. My advice before going any further is a compression test. Then go from there. Trust me..ETHER BAD !!! I just spent 500$ this AM for a new head for my skidsteer cause I got lazy and used it instead of putting the space heater under it.

 

[ak diesel driver]

:rolleyes5: