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1996 Intercooled 6.5 diesel intermittent low power towing

Mikehammond

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Location
Calgary
Hi, I'm new here, first time poster. Il start with some history on it. My father inlaw bought this truck in 98 with around 25000km, and I bought it from him in 2008 at 112000km. Dually is now just under 150000km, and I only use it in the summer, mainly for towing my 24ft travel trailer, I'm guessing it weights around 6000 lbs.

So the problem I'm having isn't quite intermittent, but almost like a timed event. Il leave my home towing my trailer, for the first hour or so everything is great. Good power, haul 120km/h no problem on flat highway and keep it over 100km/h (65mph) up hills. I have gauges and bumper mounted 3" intercooler. so typically if everything's going good il read about 7-9psi boost and 650-800 egt on flat highway. On hills, she will read 13.5-15psi boost and I've never seen it rise over 1150-1200 egt's. I usually travel to the same destination, and about 1 hour into my trip the problem occurs, at the same location I drive into some longer hills, but nothing serious. Anyway, it's almost as if it's going into what I believe is called a, 'secondary limp mode'. The truck will gradually slow and slow going into the hill, it will eventually shift down into third gear. And I'm usually only doing about 80-85km/h (50mph ish) by the time I crest the hill. During this problem boost is usually 7-8psi. Maybe sometimes 9psi, and I can only produce about 750-800 egt's. No black smoke, this truck never ever smoked. The truck will not exceed those values the remainder of the trip, and I eventually come into some steeper longer hills where it will dip down to 70-75km/h (40-45mph). The cruise control is functional and trans will still lock up during the problem. No check engine light will illuminate. My truck has a healthy cooling system and gauge barely moves from normal operating temperature when working hard. Transmission shifts and operates mint and trans temp gauge stays around 160f average. This problem has been ongoing for a few years.

Since I've owned it I've replaced the lift pump and removed filter manager and completely cleaned including screen. Bumper mounted dtech pmd with heat sink #9 resistor. ( I have a spare black stanadyne pmd and have tried it with the same problem resulting). 3" straight pipe exhaust turbo back. Original crossover pipe. Replaced ignition switch. Removed rad, oil cooler and cleaned between. (Surprised how much junk was in there). Came stock with HO water pump and dual thermostat housing. Thermostats replaced. Replaced intake gaskets. Replaced full vibration dampener and front main seal. I've cleaned all engine grounds. I run Amsoil 15w40 and I change the fuel filter every second oil change, and run stanadyne diesel fuel additive. And I mounted the 3" intercooler 3 years ago, I had originally thought that maybe the Intake air temperature had been causing the pcm to defuel in the hills. It felt awesome after, but like I said, it felt like it got weaker down the road, so installed the gauges. I'm sure I forgotten some of the stuff I've done to it. But it's still running the original IP and injectors. But I don't think that's the problem.

One funny thing is that the last trip home I did it acted like a biatch the whole way with the problem. I got home, unloaded my trailer. Drove to the fuel station, I filled it while it was idling. I got back on the highway and I had full power again. Fuel cap maybe? Haha. But I've never noticed a vacuum noise when I've spun of the cap, and it's usually not running when I fill up.

I've never pulled over and done a key cycle to see if it goes away. But where I go camping the truck usually sits for 3 days, and still has no power on the way home. But then next time I haul my trailer. It's the same story over again.

And I realize that I need to get a scan tool and see what's going on while this is all happening. But I just figured I'd throw all this down and see if anyone had any prior recommendations. I've spent hours searching the web, and have learned a lot of info. Just don't really see anyone with the exact same issue. Thanx in advance!
 
I should mention that when I said I unloaded my trailer at home. I meant the cargo inside. Trailer was still attached to truck when I got fuel then it had full power again. My apologies.
 
I don't see any mention of tuning, is it tuned? Are you using a stock turbo? If so what are you using to get that high of boost pressure(tuning or a turbomaster)? Stock tuning doesn't like boost that high, and can do what you describe. I think checking fuel pressure is also worth your time as without fuel, it can't make no power.
 
Question: Did the truck *ever* climb the same hills without dropping speed? Reason for question is that with my 6,500# RV I can plan on ~50Kmh on long 6% grades (but the truck is still developing plenty of power though).


On top of the other comments, it is also looking like time to quickly budget for some preventative maintenance.

At 150K, the injection pump and injectors are at their service life, so consider at a minimum getting them bench tested, or outright replace them. If the injectors are not working properly, it will quickly add to the list of repairs (ex: burnt pistons, burnt cylinder walls, etc).


Getting the scan gauge will show what the computer is seeing as it is possible that even though the dash gauge is showing normal temps, the computer is seeing a different (hotter) temp and controlling the motor per what the ECM sees. Given the description though, am with Ferm that it is more likely from fuel starvation and a fuel pressure gauge will help at this point (as NVW commented). Toward fuel starvation, did not see that the in-tank filter was replaced (or better yet, removed) so am with NVW that this is another possible source. Regarding that the lift pump was replaced, this does not mean that it is still working . . .


Seeing that the truck is now pretty much for tow duty (and am not seeing whether there were any mods other than the 3" straight pipe and intercooler), consider looking into mods for better towing (turbo, 4" exhaust & 2-1/2" crossover, tune, etc . . .). Did notice the K&N filter mod; consider looking for a K47 box.
 
Limp mode can be from overboost, high IAT, high ECT. Lack of fuel pressure can do this including bad OPS or lift pump. High RPM returns a lot of fuel so a WOT snap in park is useful to watch fuel PSI from the water drain.

My avatar pic to the left and starting at post #8 is 'I am not totally worthless I can always serve as a bad example!" of what happens when worn out injectors turn the engine into scrap metal. http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/6-5-carnage.39865/

Not that it is or isn't your problem, but, I suggest you get a new set of injectors NOW!!! Avoid SS Diesel supply and Ebay for them.

For towing turbo info keep in mind my huge turbo doesn't light up till you are past 2000 RPM. Yet with a trailer it pulls a grade like a freight train. In Depth: http://www.maxxtorque.com/2012/07/the-65l-diesel-factory-equipped-asthma.html
 
Welcome to TTS

You may have the answer, the fuel cap or a plugged tank strainer could be the problem. Get a fuel pressure gauge on it and monitor the psi.

Wouldn't a plugged tank strainer cause the problem to be persistent? Or could the incoming fuel when I fill the tank be agitating the debrie off the strainer
 
I don't see any mention of tuning, is it tuned? Are you using a stock turbo? If so what are you using to get that high of boost pressure(tuning or a turbomaster)? Stock tuning doesn't like boost that high, and can do what you describe. I think checking fuel pressure is also worth your time as without fuel, it can't make no power.[/QUOTE
 
Wouldn't a plugged tank strainer cause the problem to be persistent? Or could the incoming fuel when I fill the tank be agitating the debrie off the strainer
Sometimes crap in the tank will fall off the pickup, and slowly plug it off. Seen it in farm tractors as well. Also a higher fuel level can help overcome a week pump, or the pickup could have a crack that a higher fuel level covers.
 
I don't see any mention of tuning, is it tuned? Are you using a stock turbo? If so what are you using to get that high of boost pressure(tuning or a turbomaster)? Stock tuning doesn't like boost that high, and can do what you describe. I think checking fuel pressure is also worth your time as without fuel, it can't make no power.

It is not tuned, have always run with original stock pcm. Yes it is the original stock turbo, and is healthy, spins freely, minimal end play and doesn't turbine doesn't scrap housing, doesn't leak oil, well minimal from CDR valve. Engine doesn't use oil either. The wastegate and vacuum system is all factory and original. The vacuum pump works good, I have good vacuum at the wastegate solenoid hose from the vacuum pump. I have good vacuum at wastegate actuator on turbo. Upon start up the wastegate at the turbo pulls fully up. Is this normal?

I am doing nothing to cause the vacuum to run at 14-15psi and achieve 1150-1200 egt's under good load. I figured it was normal. I swear that's what I'm reading and have good autometer gauges. For boost gauge,hose is mounted in plenum. Reads 0 psi off and 3-5 cruising truck alone, unloaded.

And yes I will check my fuel pressure, however you would think it would be a persistent problem. Maybe the lift pump is getting tired after it runs for awhile during the trip? Would a IP get tired after running down the road for awhile working, and then come back to life after it sat for a week?

Honestly I'm wondering if it's over boosting and causing this 'secondary limp mode' I'm having. I'm just not getting any CEL. I've only ever gotten 1 CEL, and it was a low boost pressure code, because the coupling from my 2.5" turbo to 3" intercooler pipe split, the truck was smoking a little when that happened. I Changed the coupler. That happened before I had gauges. And now that I think of it. When that happened the truck drove home really awesome full power whole way. So I'm guessing something is causing a over boost issue. But I don't know, never touched turbo or vacuum system, none of it.
 
Question: Did the truck *ever* climb the same hills without dropping speed? Reason for question is that with my 6,500# RV I can plan on ~50Kmh on long 6% grades (but the truck is still developing plenty of power though).


On top of the other comments, it is also looking like time to quickly budget for some preventative maintenance.

At 150K, the injection pump and injectors are at their service life, so consider at a minimum getting them bench tested, or outright replace them. If the injectors are not working properly, it will quickly add to the list of repairs (ex: burnt pistons, burnt cylinder walls, etc).


Getting the scan gauge will show what the computer is seeing as it is possible that even though the dash gauge is showing normal temps, the computer is seeing a different (hotter) temp and controlling the motor per what the ECM sees. Given the description though, am with Ferm that it is more likely from fuel starvation and a fuel pressure gauge will help at this point (as NVW commented). Toward fuel starvation, did not see that the in-tank filter was replaced (or better yet, removed) so am with NVW that this is another possible source. Regarding that the lift pump was replaced, this does not mean that it is still working . . .


Seeing that the truck is now pretty much for tow duty (and am not seeing whether there were any mods other than the 3" straight pipe and intercooler), consider looking into mods for better towing (turbo, 4" exhaust & 2-1/2" crossover, tune, etc . . .). Did notice the K&N filter mod; consider looking for a K47 box.
 
Sounds like you have either a boost pressure sensor or waste gate solenoid issue then. If you're at sea level, then boost should run up to about 8-10, then drop back and hold 7-8 psi. Even at 5000 feet above sea level, boost should only hold around 9-10 sustained. Anything more and it will defuel and should set an overboost code. So either you have a tune in it and don't know it, or else your going into limp for boost being to high for to long.
 
I can understand why you'd ask that question. And honestly, I'm not sure if it has ever done that hill with no problem. However it's not even that serious of a hill, maybe a little longer than the ones I climb no problem getting to it. And I think the gauge readings are living proof that it's not right. I guess I should ask this question. Are these 6.5s supposed to try an maintain a egt just under 1200f if they are working? Seems to me that if everything is fine, it should continually be trying to make as much power within its safe zone?

Yes I agree with the upcoming maintenance. Really PMO that my father inlaw didn't have the IP replaced under warranty in time. However that's why I'm wondering if the IP can show these symptoms for weakness? Seems really strange that it has power for 1 hour, and then doesn't. BTW, the truck starts beautifully and has only 1 puff of smoke at initial start up. It's the cleanest running 6.5 I've seen. So I think the IP and injectors are alright for now, but I could be wrong. Maybe il get the injectors bench tested to be safe.

I didn't know there was a tank filter. So haven't checked that. But you would think if it was plugged it would be gutless all the time, and not like what I'm experiencing?

I can hear the lift pump running when key on. And at key off I can hear it running for a couple seconds after. Although I have a couple odd experiences where it doesn't run when key on (usually after it has already been running and warm) and when I key off I've noticed that it isn't purring. Is this an issue? Does the OPS have a problem?

And I agree, I want more mods!
 
Lift pump will make noise even when it's no longer pumping fuel. Do yourself a big favor and spend 35 to 40 bucks and put a basic fuel pressure gauge that reads vacuum on there. If you want to get elaborate spend $100 and put a nice one. It will pay for itself in diagnostics. When the lift pump goes week and you start starving the injection pump for fuel the truck will still continue to run it will just wear out the IP very quickly.

If you can do that hill and maintain good fuel pressure the entire time, and that pretty much a lemonades fuel supply issue unless like the ferminator says and you're over boosting causing a signal to be sent to cut power.

Regarding the Fermiminator, rumor has it he was wrong about a truck once, but I haven't seen it happen yet. Follow his lead.
 
Sounds like you have either a boost pressure sensor or waste gate solenoid issue then. If you're at sea level, then boost should run up to about 8-10, then drop back and hold 7-8 psi. Even at 5000 feet above sea level, boost should only hold around 9-10 sustained. Anything more and it will defuel and should set an overboost code. So either you have a tune in it and don't know it, or else your going into limp for boost being to high for to long.

Ya I'm sitting at around 3200 feet I believe. I removed the glovebox and it's got the original pcm. Is there a way to diagnose the pressure sensor or wastegate solenoid? Or just replace?

With those boost values you say, what egt's should a healthy 6.5 produce for a prolonged period of time working hard? And does it sustain them nonstop as long as all inputs are happy? I'm confident your last phrase is my problem. However, I agree with all you guys about going over the fuel system. I shall investigate it further.

I said earlier that I can hear my lift pump humming when I turn the key on before start up. And after shut down for a couple seconds. Sometimes I've had it where I stop into a store for 5 minutes, come back out, turn key on, and don't hear the lift pump humming, or it'll be like a quick 1 second of it humming then off, I assume this is normal. Also usually when I shut it off it continues to hum a couple of seconds, which I assume is normal because of the ops. I've had it where I've shut it off and don't hear it humming, is this a sign of a intermittent ops? Also does the ops control the oil pressure gauge in cluster? And is a problem with the ops linked at all to the operation of the cluster oil pressure gauge? Just asking cause I've never had a problem with the oil pressure gauge. Thx
 
Lift pump will make noise even when it's no longer pumping fuel. Do yourself a big favor and spend 35 to 40 bucks and put a basic fuel pressure gauge that reads vacuum on there. If you want to get elaborate spend $100 and put a nice one. It will pay for itself in diagnostics. When the lift pump goes week and you start starving the injection pump for fuel the truck will still continue to run it will just wear out the IP very quickly.

If you can do that hill and maintain good fuel pressure the entire time, and that pretty much a lemonades fuel supply issue unless like the ferminator says and you're over boosting causing a signal to be sent to cut power.

Regarding the Fermiminator, rumor has it he was wrong about a truck once, but I haven't seen it happen yet. Follow his lead.

Hahaha that's good!

Is there a link or sticky you could refer me to for this basic fuel gauge that reads vacuum set up you speak of? Or is it just mounted on the FM bleed or just what exactly?

Ya that worries me a little about the IP wearing over a dead lift pump. First thing I did when I got the truck was change the fuel filter, tried to bleed and got nothing. Lift pump was dead when I got it. Had to crack injectors to get it going. However I still believe the IP is ok. I recently discovered there is a fuel screen on the IP inlet. I guarantee this has never been cleaned. From your guys' experience, does this screen ever really get dirty? Also I plan on doing the FTB mod soon.

One more thing I should add, is that I intermittently have a very small fuel leak coming from the FM. What's the best place to get these orings?Would my local Chevy like acdelco work? And are those viton. Thx
 
Sometimes crap in the tank will fall off the pickup, and slowly plug it off. Seen it in farm tractors as well. Also a higher fuel level can help overcome a week pump, or the pickup could have a crack that a higher fuel level covers.

That's a good point about the tank fuel head pressure and cracked pick up! Thx
 
Also you seem to be avoiding the idea of the tank sock plugging. This is a very common occurrence. When you fill the tank it basically washes off some dirt and it will run better for a while.
 
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