"Crawl, Crawl, Stagger, Stagger" Truck is limping

[Will L.]

Pressure gauge yet?

 

[Turbine Doc]

Update after being overcome by other tasks; who said when you are retired you will have all the time you want to work projects you have...yeah everybody else's as well it seems.

At least in my consulting work I'm getting paid better than I was when I was working full time. So the root cause was IP related I suspect optic sensor, I found that I had/have (7) "used but supposed to be good" ones in my 6.5 spares kit, but I opted for the fresh reman, that fixed me right up so back in business , clear tubing on IP feed & returns.

Lift pressure at IP inlet holding a steady 10 psi, dipping to just 5psi on hard accelerations, I have not towed with it, or pulled long grades with the new IP but I do not expect it will have issues in doing it. My Amazon TOPDON 900 scanner took some time to get my timing & TDCO correct to where I wanted them, but running great with -1.54 TDCO; good thing as I think my old Snap On "brick" MT2500 has given it up, and will not stay active when running through the time set functions.

In my initial trouble shooting I swapped installed fuel filters for new ones, I got around to cutting them open last week, my setup is Racor 30 micron on frame rail, then the factory 6 micron nominal FFM element relocated to driver side fender well in engine bay supported by (2) 1/2"-13 all-thread studs/washers/nuts under housing mounting "ear".

My filters captured to their micron rating but I suspect some finer particulate got past the element to the IP/optic sensor disc, this random "out of the blue" failure came within 150 miles of my last fuel fill up, so I have to suspect the captured "mud" in the filter came from last tank fill as the filter swap I did last fall, I did not have this "crud in the Racor or the factory FFM filter or bowls.

Now I'm considering adding a 2 micron final filter after the FFM 6 micron. The "big stuff" in the pre lift pump Racor is what "eats" the "innards" of the lift pump on the frame rail and what causes early clogging of the on engine FFM if you do not have any pre filtration, I thought my 3 tier 70 micron "sock" in tank, to the 30 Micron Racor on frame, to 6 mic FFM element was "good enough" with each "finer" element "polishing" the fuel well maybe not.

 

[Turbine Doc]

More images

 

[Will L.]

Yummy! Sorry to hear but glad you found out the issue.
The drawback of filtering down fined is it works the liftpump more so keep an eye on that, and for folks living in a freezer, the finer filter is where the gelling occurs so a heater becomes more of a requirement.

Something lacking on the factory filter is the ability to deal with water.
The original fuel wouldn’t suspend water in it, it naturally separated. So the spoonfull of water the filter will absorb and start passing through wasnt a big deal as the WIF light came on and we drained out the small amount of water which we rarely had to deal with.

No that they are determined to squish corn juice into our fuel the ethanol can absorb its own weight in water. With minimal ethanol amount @5%-10% depending on time of year, congrats you now can have 10% water going through to do the number on your optic sensor, pump rotor housing & veins, and injectors.

So while you are messing with adding a better filter, my suggestion is add one specific for water. The factory one will saturate then allow the water to pass through. I have not researched all the different filters that can stop it, hut have found one that is Absolute. FASS.

The argument against them is cost & what if it stalls the engine causing a safety issue.
Having a fuel pressure gauge on your dash, as it plugs with water you will see the pressure dropping if you have a moderate amount of water plugging over time and you can address it.
What if the neighbor kid fuels you up with a garden hose? You can drive then the slug of the water stops all the fuel near instant as you have to steer& stop without power assist. Without the fass that same volume of water would bypass the ffm and damage the ip shutting the engine down anyways. The difference is one way you can unscrew & pour out the filter, put it back on and start the engine to het off the freeway, the other way you are waiting for a tow truck and a new ip.
So obviously I see it as way worth it.

My plan going to electric pressure gauge is use a sensor before the filter, and at the ip. Flip of a switch and you see the difference of plugging filters. @MrMarty51 has done his this way for questions. The worst part of it is high quality gauge and sensors cost as much as a truck now days.

 

[jrsavoie]

Yummy! Sorry to hear but glad you found out the issue.
The drawback of filtering down fined is it works the liftpump more so keep an eye on that, and for folks living in a freezer, the finer filter is where the gelling occurs so a heater becomes more of a requirement.

Something lacking on the factory filter is the ability to deal with water.
The original fuel wouldn’t suspend water in it, it naturally separated. So the spoonfull of water the filter will absorb and start passing through wasnt a big deal as the WIF light came on and we drained out the small amount of water which we rarely had to deal with.

No that they are determined to squish corn juice into our fuel the ethanol can absorb its own weight in water. With minimal ethanol amount @5%-10% depending on time of year, congrats you now can have 10% water going through to do the number on your optic sensor, pump rotor housing & veins, and injectors.

So while you are messing with adding a better filter, my suggestion is add one specific for water. The factory one will saturate then allow the water to pass through. I have not researched all the different filters that can stop it, hut have found one that is Absolute. FASS.

The argument against them is cost & what if it stalls the engine causing a safety issue.
Having a fuel pressure gauge on your dash, as it plugs with water you will see the pressure dropping if you have a moderate amount of water plugging over time and you can address it.
What if the neighbor kid fuels you up with a garden hose? You can drive then the slug of the water stops all the fuel near instant as you have to steer& stop without power assist. Without the fass that same volume of water would bypass the ffm and damage the ip shutting the engine down anyways. The difference is one way you can unscrew & pour out the filter, put it back on and start the engine to het off the freeway, the other way you are waiting for a tow truck and a new ip.
So obviously I see it as way worth it.

My plan going to electric pressure gauge is use a sensor before the filter, and at the ip. Flip of a switch and you see the difference of plugging filters. @MrMarty51 has done his this way for questions. The worst part of it is high quality gauge and sensors cost as much as a truck now days.

And what are high quality gauges, snubbers amd fuel.pressure sending units?

 

[Will L.]

I wish I knew which to recommend.
For instance, auto meter was always considered an acceptable entry level gauge. Those start at $300 now and are from china & have a higher failure rate than ever before. They have some cheaper but like Marty experienced with the glowshift- the sensors fail soon
Used to be VDO, Longacre, AEM, etc made quality but they are chinese made now and have a higher failure rate than the older ones.

So unfortunately I don’t have the suggestion which brand to get. Idk if any of them offer a good warranty anymore

Something I plan to look at is ones rated for aircraft.

 

[jrsavoie]

I wish I knew which to recommend.
For instance, auto meter was always considered an acceptable entry level gauge. Those start at $300 now and are from china & have a higher failure rate than ever before. They have some cheaper but like Marty experienced with the glowshift- the sensors fail soon
Used to be VDO, Longacre, AEM, etc made quality but they are chinese made now and have a higher failure rate than the older ones.

So unfortunately I don’t have the suggestion which brand to get. Idk if any of them offer a good warranty anymore

Something I plan to look at is ones rated for aircraft.

Keep us updated.

If anybody has a link to good quality fuel pressure gauge parts, please share

 

[Turbine Doc]

Keep us updated.

If anybody has a link to good quality fuel pressure gauge parts, please share

I have been toying with idea of a liquid filled mechanical gauge, copper tube "shrouded" inside a rubber fuel hose to dissipate any leaks in the line, we run "shrouded" fuel manifolds on ship and aircraft jet engines rigid tube over tube to mitigate pressurized fuel spray mist on a hot jet engine on 600psi fuel injection to turbine nozzles. Leakage sent to a alarmed leak detection tank 2.5 gallons sets alarm, fuel rubber hose over copper tube inside should be plenty protection for 10-15 psi from lift pump output.

$9.35 from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08GWY1JG4?language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl

 

[Turbine Doc]

Yummy! Sorry to hear but glad you found out the issue.
The drawback of filtering down fined is it works the liftpump more so keep an eye on that, and for folks living in a freezer, the finer filter is where the gelling occurs so a heater becomes more of a requirement.

Something lacking on the factory filter is the ability to deal with water.
The original fuel wouldn’t suspend water in it, it naturally separated. So the spoonfull of water the filter will absorb and start passing through wasnt a big deal as the WIF light came on and we drained out the small amount of water which we rarely had to deal with.

No that they are determined to squish corn juice into our fuel the ethanol can absorb its own weight in water. With minimal ethanol amount @5%-10% depending on time of year, congrats you now can have 10% water going through to do the number on your optic sensor, pump rotor housing & veins, and injectors.

So while you are messing with adding a better filter, my suggestion is add one specific for water. The factory one will saturate then allow the water to pass through. I have not researched all the different filters that can stop it, hut have found one that is Absolute. FASS.

The argument against them is cost & what if it stalls the engine causing a safety issue.
Having a fuel pressure gauge on your dash, as it plugs with water you will see the pressure dropping if you have a moderate amount of water plugging over time and you can address it.
What if the neighbor kid fuels you up with a garden hose? You can drive then the slug of the water stops all the fuel near instant as you have to steer& stop without power assist. Without the fass that same volume of water would bypass the ffm and damage the ip shutting the engine down anyways. The difference is one way you can unscrew & pour out the filter, put it back on and start the engine to het off the freeway, the other way you are waiting for a tow truck and a new ip.
So obviously I see it as way worth it.

My plan going to electric pressure gauge is use a sensor before the filter, and at the ip. Flip of a switch and you see the difference of plugging filters. @MrMarty51 has done his this way for questions. The worst part of it is high quality gauge and sensors cost as much as a truck now days.

I run a Air Dog on my (06) 5.9 Cummins as AD/FASS did not exist in 2000 when I built my system on my 6.5, it took until 2025 before letting me down and I'm not 100% that the IP optic just didn't isn't let go due to age, as inside the filter (clean side) was clean.

The Racor pre-filter manages water quite well, it has a high end water separation element (clog resistant) larger canister and WIF sensor, no detection of excess water on it or the FFM water sensor.

Mine is rated to flow 60 gph not that I flow that much bug could handle that if I had it, I sourced it from a marine supplier catalog we use in marine diesel boat community for propulsion and power generation up to 1Kshp, since I have gauges I have yet to see problem with excessive suction restriction, adding a full flow 2 micron (factory for Dmax) should work and I will be able to see with gauges if excessive flow restrictions. I also bought the Racor vac. switch to set off a red LED on my gauge pillar to alert when filter is getting clogged.

I have a theory most problems from excessive suction pressures on filters stems from fuel system designs using a single small bodied fine filter to manage ALL of the water & trash in the fuel system, they "big stuff" clogging the all inclusive 2 micron media/element, then that failing and allowing raw fuel/debris & even shards of filter media to the IP or HP fuel system. I think by using graduate filtration and what Wix/Baldwin/Racor recommend, with multiple filters is right way to go.

I harken back to my days in ship fuel systems where we purified 684,561 gallons bulk fuel for our fuel supplied to our Gas Turbine (jet) engines with a service fuel from bulk storage, Re-circed service tanks after filling from bulk a minimum 4 hours before placing standby service tank on suction, with a heated centrifugal stacked disk purifier, with a max allowed solid 2.64mg/liter .01 water to the GT then passing that to the 40 micron coalescing filter banks prior to the GT engine suction.

Those were a PITA to clean as 75 gal of fuel to be drained with 10 filter elements to be changed, on occasion if not too dirty you could just reset the alarm by powering down alarm and re-energize so that next watch had to do the cleaning. Problem there after enough re-sets it fixes itself...or did it, turned out what was happening was after being max clogged, the media would fail putting trash and cellulose directly into fuel controls (IPs) on the turbines, then those would start having hot starts or stall conditions.

It took a long time to figure this out, as step1 was to clean then test fuel control & no problem found after cleaning, it wasn't until I became a fiel service engineer for GE we were having what was deemed a "batch of bad fuel controls", we finally convinced Woodward Governor to test as received using #2 (NATO F-76 fuel) Diesel fuel, vs. test/calibration fluid viola bad fuel control,.

Then they did open/inspect as received finding cellulose in the controls only source of cellulose after the purifiers was those coalescer elements in the final filtration housing.

 

[jrsavoie]

I have been toying with idea of a liquid filled mechanical gauge, copper tube "shrouded" inside a rubber fuel hose to dissipate any leaks in the line, we run "shrouded" fuel manifolds on ship and aircraft jet engines rigid tube over tube to mitigate pressurized fuel spray mist on a hot jet engine on 600psi fuel injection to turbine nozzles. Leakage sent to a alarmed leak detection tank 2.5 gallons sets alarm, fuel rubber hose over copper tube inside should be plenty protection for 10-15 psi from lift pump output.

$9.35 from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08GWY1JG4?language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl

I'd be interested in this. Sounds more dependable than an electric gauge