School me on fifth wheel campers

[Twisted Steel Performance]

The time is nearing for us to sell the LQ horse trailer and purchase a fifth wheel camper..

For those of you that know them, what are some things to be concerned about as far as the model or brand camper. Most of the time it will only be me and the boss, but at times a couple grand kids may be along.

Questions from me are mostly in the structural end, like do slide outs leak, are the moving motors known to quit, you know, questions for someone that hasn't owned a larger newer camper..

We are use to camping, out horse trailer is large and has everything from real wood inside to onan genset and is fulley self contained, it is all aluminum and not a light weight goose neck, so I'm use to pulling a larger unit..

Just want to hear things to consider other than price, and yes we would go the used route @ around 35 feet long or so... later we would be spending a lot of time in it when retired and we only want to purchase once...

 

[Will L.]

When I was a Mac Tools guy, i went to 6 different rv shops. Now, this was back 15ishyears ago. But every shop was always doing repairs on slide out. I asked the mechanics about them. They said the unsupported ones always have major issues once they get some years on them.

I would suggest hose spraying the heck out of one before paying Also open and close each one 3 times.

When I buy used car of any kind I tell them if I like it the end of the test drive is at a smog shop and if it fails, no buy and they pay for the failed smog. If it passes I pay and will buy the rig. Simply telling them that on the phone before even going to look at it they fess up right then to save the time and cash. I suggest same treatment with the slide out.

There were times the bill on repairs was more than the value of the trailer in those shops. The bigger shops simply required 1/2 down up front.

 

[Jaryd]

We never had a slide out leak but have had the motor go out in Arizona so we manually cranked it in and out for the rest of the trip. We always put a adjustable pole with a tee on both ends on top of the slide out on the inside of the motorhome when it’s not let out. The pole goes against both surfaces on top that mate together when the slide out is out. It don’t let everything move when driving down the road. I think the movement and jarring of the slide out being not supported while driving down the road is why some campers have problems with the slide rails and alignment issues later on.

The camper is a 98 model Class C Jayco and has been on MANY camping trips. Only 1 slide out motor and 1 fresh water pump has been changed.

If I were to buy a new to me camper it would have at least 2 slide outs. One in the master bedroom and one in the living room.

 

[WarWagon]

First off... 35' long YUCK!!! That's driving a big rig aka Work not fun. Sure you get 4' over the bed and 4' over the trailer loosing 8' of rig length. Look at it another way: most National Parks are good for 27-28' max trailer length. That's hitch to bumper. The Grand Canyon does allow 40' RV's, but, good luck getting a 40' spot. Much easier to get a 27' or smaller space esp. for a max 1 week length stay.

I have owned my 2003 27-5L Arctic Fox 3er for 4 years now. An older couple put around 100K on it and then couldn't lift the hitch in and out anymore. I have had the roof resealed and reconditioned, but, not replaced. The skylights are near EOL and need to be redone soon. I have had one slide bearing plate break on the main slide and needs repair, but, not a show stopper.

Delamination ... look it up. It's expensive to fix and makes a RV a Total Loss quick. A crack and delamanation less than 1' cost me $1,000 to fix. A fiberglass RV or tin can that avoids this is not available in 4 season 5th wheel configurations. There is a fiberglass Escape trailer 5th wheel.

50 Amp vs. 30 Amp. Again you have more 30 Amp service at National Parks than 50 Amp. 50 Amp is for bigger units that take 2 AC units and a bigger genset. 50 Amp is two in phase 120V lines where 30 AMP is a single 120V line.

Brands in this length I would look at Arctic Fox. I have the older 27-5L (27') before they made it too damn long. I can't buy anything from them in the 28' or less length new today.

Tires... Used I suggest replacing the ST with LT tires at a tire shop near the seller of the RV. Michelin XPS RIB or LTX will age out before wear out. ST are a garbage rating and even the new Goodyear ST's have cried "Uncle" on my RV with tread cracking in the first year. 5 Years is a good life limit on RV tires.

After you get one make sure the converter is as close to the battery box as possible and have some good thick wires to it. DIY project. My 5th wheel managed to put the damn thing on the other end of the RV from the batteries and run it to the power center on the other side of the RV ... 36' of krap 6 awg wire on a 27' RV. Just couldn't make a longer run giving me a 1 volt drop when charging the batts off the generator. Moving the converter and using thick wire went from 25A to nearly the limit of the 60A converter into two 6V Lifeline AGM batteries.

Make room in the battery box for AGM 6V or go with newer lithium batteries. AGM's do not have a AMP limit when charging and will save fuel on the genset or make use of the limited genset run hours in parks.

The Main Propane Regulator. Get rid of the cheap Communist krap and put in a Made in USA Rego regulator. 10 Year warranty rather than watching the genset starve for fuel and burn stuff up every few years as the Commie reg fails again. A few places sell them online or special order from a local Rego Dealer. Mine is 4 years old and only had to be adjusted once.

http://www.regoproducts.com/lpg/lpg-nh3-products/products/7525b.html

Gen-turi for the generator exhaust is a good idea.

A NASTY design defect in ALL RV refrigerators is the lack of overheat protection. Combined with thinner tubes esp. used on some fridges prior to 2013 "off level" operation can cause long term damage until they leak or burst. Nasty fireballs result sometimes. Class Action lawsuits, of course, don't fix the damn problem... However a "Not Invented Here" solution exists to protect the fridge from overheat. (OEM's provide a meltdown cooling unit failed shut off and still have fires.)

Fridge Defend by ARP Protects your Dometic or Norcold

Fridge Defend by ARP® controls the high temperatures that can lead to fridge failure and safety issues, our fan controller improves efficiency and repairs fan problems without removal of the fridge in most cases for Dometic, Norcold & Amish RV Refrigerators.

www.arprv.com

A fan in the refrigerator helps it work better. So does 1/2 LB of dry ice to get it started up quicker. I have one external cooling unit fan from ARP on my RV fridge as well.

 

[MrMarty51]

Be careful of Dometic propane refrigerators, the next door neighbor, hard working kid, bought a brand new toy hauler camper device, bougjt a brand new snowmobile ( snow machine ) and the dometic refrigerator burned it all down, snow machine included.
guess Dometic has a lot of lawsuits due to faulty refrigerators.
be sure to check the model and serial numbers of the fridge to make sure it is on the safe list.

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

It's mostly the same stuff as any other rv. Stick built units are fine, but if you get ANY leaks, rot is a problem. Aluminum frame units are prone to cracking. Rubber roofs are said to be good, but one low hanging limb, and you're screwed. Aluminum roofs suffer from corrosion. Slides can be nice for room, but many people do not put the self retracting awning over there slideouts, water runs down them, and over time it rots out the support beam under the slide. Not to mention slideouts add quite a bit of weight from all the structure they have to build to put a slide in and support it. When we were looking, one slideout added almost a ton to the weight of the unit vs a non slidrout unit. Fridges can not just be problematic, but can kill you in more ways than one. You have ammonia running through a coil on the inside of them at all times, an evap let's loose, you open the door, and you're a goner. I ended up on the ground laying outside a rv one time because this happened. Another big thing you have to look for is repairs/modifications by previous owners. I've seen some real doozy's when I was looking for our last one.

 

[WarWagon]

@MrMarty51 Both Norcold and Dometic had fireball fridge burning down the RV problems as detailed on ARP Controls website. Useless class action lawsuits: the main Plaintiffs wanted a fix not money for a settlement. Lawyers (Norcold case) went for the cold hard cash and FU to the rest of us on further fires and explosions. Longer warranty and cash... The Recalls, extreme overheat cut out, is NOT a fix. The Dometic Class action was dismissed on a technicality and may be re-filed.

Both SCUM manufactures have attempted to file the same patient ARP already has in a clear display of "NOT INVENTED HERE!" arrogance. They were not successful. Their arrogance continues to put RV owners in danger as they do not have a useful (damage free) temp limit on their boilers.

The fridge in my used RV was installed in 2013 as the OEM fridge failed. It's the last year they made the thinner walls, but, newer ones can still overheat and fail long term. The class action allowed me a longer warranty that's now expired and cash back I missed the deadline for.

Anything Newer than 2013 is better, but, still prone to off-level operation causing overheating and the corrosion inhibitor to be ruined from excessive heat. A 6% grade is off level and can overheat the fridge just getting to a campground. Then the thin wall tubes corrode all the way through. Off level operation, freezing, wind stopping cooling air from moving, is the long term root cause and thus the overheat prevention device ARP sells. ARP cuts off the boiler heaters I am guessing around 180 C, 356 F.

The recalls cut out around 800F - The fridge needs replacement if the boiler gets that hot, period.

 

[JayTheCPA]

Pros of a 5'er are that they generally back easier than a TT and usually have better roof insulation than a TT.


Height is a factor. Sure, a 5'er will pass under almost every bridge and power line on the highway, but tree limbs do not always respect regs.


Slides are nice, but tend to have some detractions:
- When they are 'In', moving around inside the RV gets tricky as they eat interior space.
- As already noted, they add lots of extra weight for the rigging and stiffening of the shell to accommodate the slide. That extra weight might detract from the extra toys you could have taken.
- Generally have less storage space (especially overhead) as compared to non-slide RV's.


I would not pass-up a 5'er with good bones and workable floor-plan just because it does not have a slide. Seeing as young-uns might come along, take a look at units with two entrance doors. While not part of the stated objective, I would take a hard look at a front kitchen travel trailer as these units usually have lots of space benefits.


Agree with others about making sure the roof is tight. No matter what type of roof, plan on re-sealing right away. For aluminum roof's, only time I have seen corrosion is from galvanic when different types of metals were used (steel screws, A/C touching the roof, etc...). Current RV roof is ~30 year old aluminum which only suffered from one galvanic hole where the old A/C came in direct contact. Aside from the A/C hole, regular replacement of the sealant is keeping things inside dry and stink-free.


For brand, another to one to focus on is Holiday Rambler from the 80's - mid 00's. Would not touch one from the late 00's to current as the ownership changed a couple times and quality dropped-off.


Another thing with 5'ers is to look for holding tank placements. I have watched some 5'ers have to dump twice as they had dump points both mid-ship and rear. Sure made for a lot of not-so-happy campers waiting to use the dump while that 5'er hogged the lane...


For tires, there are lots of passionate conversations about using other than ST's on the trailer as some feel ST is the only acceptable rating. Meh, whatever... Doing homework is a good thing here. I agree with WW that going a different path is worth considering. Another combination to look at is is LOAD G (or higher) commercial trailer tires for the 5'er if they will fit. People doing this report much lower failure rates as compared to ST tires. Saliuns have a good rep in the 5'er community. If the decision is to use LOAD G's or higher, make sure that the wheels can handle the psi.


Will expand a bit on WW's comments about batteries. If boondocking is in the plans, consider saving for LiFePO4 batteries and supporting converter mods. Going lithium saves a *lot* of weight, drastically reduces generator time as they recharge much faster than lead (of any technology), and actually cost less than lead batteries when looking at the total lifecycle. Going the LiFePO4 route should also include truck-side charging mods (like a DC to DC converter) to eliminate risk of overheating the alternator.


If going with an ammonia absorption refer is outside the comfort level, there are some highly efficient 12v units available with good reputations. Alternatively, can turn-off the refer while traveling and move perishable stuff to a portable 12v cooler and portable 12v freezer. Naturally, there are trade-offs with each path.


Next topic: roof vents. Take a look at MaxxFan / MaxxAir units. There are several designs which allow keeping the vent 'Open' all the time and allows the fan to run even when the vent is 'Closed'. Other brands do allow keeping the vent 'Open' all the time, but require an add-on dome which creates a few more holes in the roof to seal and turn-off the fan when the vent closes. The MaxxFan units that have temperature control also modulate fan speed based on difference of the set temperature to ambient. At one time I loved Fantastic Vents and still have two in the RV; if they die tomorrow, MaxxFans will replace them. If you are able to keep the RV connected to power while in storage, MaxxVent is a clear win by setting it to circulate air all the time; this also reduces mildew by keeping the air moving.


And in case the question of moisture control comes up, Yes there is a product which absorbs moisture from the air and dumps it in a pouch / container. Granted that while this product does what it states (and makes the air smell nice too), I will argue that it does not drop humidity. Without dropping humidity levels, the end result is a nice smelling RV and no other measurable benefit. The only way I have found to drop humidity is with a dehumidifier and there are some simple (and relatively inexpensive) devices available on the online marketplaces which are relatively effective.

 

[MrMarty51]

One of my old riding buds bought a 5th wheel camper. I am guessing it is a 2009, might be slightly newer. It sustained some hail damage, insurance paid and He mentioned that the wifey and I buy it, real cheap, like 800 Bucks or so. In the meantime, he takes it out and drags the top side into some kind of an awning, slightly ripping some siding. Got to looking it over, You guessed it, ROT. He patched the tear and is still using the camper but, unless he removes the siding and roof and does some reconstruction, this camper will most likely blow apart going down the road someday.
You can go into vintagetrailertalkfreeforum and look me up in there, i did a complete restoration on this old home made camper that I have. Frame up, to the top of the roof. It was a fun project, and, I tried to put it all back together real close to what the original builder had done. I camp out in this thing, sometimes at -20 degrees F and could not fogure out why a 25 pound bottle of propane would last four or more days, until I started the dismantle. Floor was 1-1/2” of foam board with aluminum foil topping, as well as the walls, the walls had a double back aluminum foil attached to the outside then, 1/8th inch plywood under The siding, boxes built over the wheel wells and those were filled with spray in foam insulation. It was a challenge getting the inside paneling to make the double bend at the front but did manage to finally get it. A lot of work on a bandsaw to get the wall stud pieces shaped bit that was all partnof the fun. No propane refrigerator, only a built in ice box.

 

[jrsavoie]

One of my old riding buds bought a 5th wheel camper. I am guessing it is a 2009, might be slightly newer. It sustained some hail damage, insurance paid and He mentioned that the wifey and I buy it, real cheap, like 800 Bucks or so. In the meantime, he takes it out and drags the top side into some kind of an awning, slightly ripping some siding. Got to looking it over, You guessed it, ROT. He patched the tear and is still using the camper but, unless he removes the siding and roof and does some reconstruction, this camper will most likely blow apart going down the road someday.
You can go into vintagetrailertalkfreeforum and look me up in there, i did a complete restoration on this old home made camper that I have. Frame up, to the top of the roof. It was a fun project, and, I tried to put it all back together real close to what the original builder had done. I camp out in this thing, sometimes at -20 degrees F and could not fogure out why a 25 pound bottle of propane would last four or more days, until I started the dismantle. Floor was 1-1/2” of foam board with aluminum foil topping, as well as the walls, the walls had a double back aluminum foil attached to the outside then, 1/8th inch plywood under The siding, boxes built over the wheel wells and those were filled with spray in foam insulation. It was a challenge getting the inside paneling to make the double bend at the front but did manage to finally get it. A lot of work on a bandsaw to get the wall stud pieces shaped bit that was all partnof the fun. No propane refrigerator, only a built in ice box.
View attachment 61898

We had a 34' 1978 Dodge Concord motorhome with winter package. It was spraynfoamed 1-1/2" on the walls, ceiling and all over the bottom - after thentanks were installed. Made it a pain to do anything, but it was much more a propqne miser than the 26 ft bumper pull we had

 

[MrMarty51]

We had a 34' 1978 Dodge Concord motorhome with winter package. It was spraynfoamed 1-1/2" on the walls, ceiling and all over the bottom - after thentanks were installed. Made it a pain to do anything, but it was much more a propqne miser than the 26 ft bumper pull we had

I have read horror stories of people that thought they would do a restoration on the campers with the spray in foam, they never knew before they started what they were getting into. Now that would be a terrible day. I think the ones that they had attempted was the Winnebago units.

 

[jrsavoie]

I have read horror stories of people that thought they would do a restoration on the campers with the spray in foam, they never knew before they started what they were getting into. Now that would be a terrible day. I think the ones that they had attempted was the Winnebago units.

I had a leak on the gray tank. What a battle

 

[Will L.]

Oh, roof sealing... i have a new take on it. Rhino line or lineX.
More expensive but it is AMAZING after that. Watch some of the stuff it stands up to on YouTube or the like.
anything that happens, it handles it. Tree branches, hail storms, etc. The only thing that is going to damage it is something like hitting a low bridge that would rip the top off anyways. It also helps insulate really well. If you use the normal texture it gives better traction to walk on when messing with a/c, vents, or if you store gear up top.

So many guys (and a few gals) doing off-roading do their entire rig with it and no more scratches, rubbing boulders while rock crawling doesn’t even damage it unless you hit so hard it caves in the metal more than a couple inches. Even then it usually stays on better than paint will. They now make less textured stuff. I am fighting myself wether or not to paint my hummer with it, but Eric the paint pro who’s help I need says not to devalue it inc

On the roof a/c units, I am guessing your gonna coat both coils to improve efficiency and power savings already. But also put a hard start kit on them from day 1.

Mattress -for some reason the mattress sizes are not always the normal size. I invest in a good mattress and don’t wake up sore, a lesson hard learned. The mattress in an rv is usually crap, or at least not what you are used to. Measure it out and make sure you can fit or at least easily change whats needed to fit a normal mattress. Because its off sized you pay a ridiculous amount anyway so make the change and get what you prefer.

suspension- for some reason most trailers don’t have shocks, some reason probably being $. In semi trailers you’ll find most dont have shocks, just leaf springs. Deal with industries that move their own electric or electronic gear around and they all run air suspension trailers with shocks. That way the ride doesn’t beat the snot of of mega cost gear. While you don’t necessarily need sir ride, running shocks will still help the tire skip and tread cupping. Working in a fleet with fuel trailers, we kept having short tire life on trailers from cupping. So I made plates that mounted shocks to the leaf springs in there and it stretched tire life by 25%. I didn’t do anything amazing, I just guessed and used the same shocks the truck had. You may not pull so many miles you wear out tires before the age out. But I liked the results enough that I added shocks to my then 2 axle 24’ camper. I didn’t say anything but my wife had me pull over saying something is wrong. I got off the freeway we always went on and pulled over. She said-“It’s not bouncing like it should, the trailer has something wrong with it.” If it were just me I would think confirmation bias. But she had no clue what I did.
So add frigin shocks to trailers that don’t have em.

Brakes. Many trailers only put brakes on one axle. In Nv the law is any trailer over 1,500 lbs must have all a les braked. Doesn’t happen. Don’t assume they built it right. They will all cut corners wherever they can.

 

[JayTheCPA]

Only issue with Rhino and LineX are that they are black (or rather, I have not seen any other color option). For travel trailers, this will definitely add heat load as the insulation is maybe R-7. 5'ers might not feel the effect so much as the roof isulation rating is usually higher than that (have seen as high as R-20).

I have used paint-on EDPM as a sealer on an aluminum TT roof. Second order benefits were that it dropped inside temperatures from the sun and lowered the noise from rain. Only downside to the EDPM was that it required cleaning to keep moss from growing on it while parked in the shade.

For the A/C mod, methinks that Will intended to recommend addition of a *soft* start which allows RV's requiring 30 Amp service to run off of a 20 Amp generator.

For brakes, chances are good that the RV will have a brake on each wheel. Will not rule-out that some PO went cheap on axle replacement and eliminated brakes. But given how much these things weigh, I doubt it.

This does bring up a good point. Trailer RV's usually come with electric drum brakes and some rare ones have electric over hydraulic (EoH). EoH is the better way to go but not many people do this as the up-front cost is more than drum. One thing to watch is that the brake controller knows which type of system is in the trailer; pick the incorrect setting and the brakes get very wonky. Another cautionary note is that if you need to borrow a buddy's vehicle to pull an EoH trailer, some integrated brake controllers cannot handle EoH and it is necessary to wire a magnet into the trailer's system in order to fool the truck into correctly working the trailer's brakes. IIRC, this was corrected by model year 19 in all vehicle manufacturers (some sooner than others).

 

[Will L.]

rhino or Linex are available in any color now-

 

[THEFERMANATOR]

Down here in Florida we see quite a bit if corrosion in the aluminum roofs, I think it is from the salt we get in the air when the winds get to blowing hard. I know our 1st campers roof was aluminum, but it was about 20 different pieces all screwed & glued together, and they were all rotted like swiss cheese. My Holiday Rambler has a 7 layer roof system in. It consists of a main layer of aluminum but multiple layer of rubber, and a top layer of what looks like PVC. Unlike most aluminum roofed campers, it is very quiet inside, even in the rain it's quiet which most sound like a barn in the rain with a aluminum roof.

The problem with rubber roofs is normally not the actual rubber membrane, it is almost always the base material they are laid down on that fails, and lets the rubber come loose. Or it is where they are sealed to the openings on the roof. I seen some models that used a layer of cardboard for the rubber roof base. I looked at several "lite" units that the roof was supported by round wooden dowel rods and stretched across like a wagon roof.

As to Holiday Rambler, they were excellent up to 96 and early 97 units, the problem was in 96 Harley Davidson sold them to Monoco who was interested in the name more than anything. The Alumalite units built up to 00/01 were still very well built units. The Alumascape models that started in 97 were built completely by Monoco, and they spared many expenses. They were not the units of old that they built there name on. Anything after 01 is going to be entirely Monoco design and built. They're not necessarily bad, but they were built on par with most everything else built at the time during the "crank em out" years.

 

[Will L.]

Yes salt water speeds up the corrosion of aluminum (aluminum oxide) just like it does steel (iron oxide aka rust). But people just don’t recognize the aluminum is deteriorating away because it just looks dull and the dull layer slows it from happening to the aluminum directly below it.

There are ATSM and ISO tests specifically for aluminum deterioration and salt spray test.

 

[MrMarty51]

Yes salt water speeds up the corrosion of aluminum (aluminum oxide) just like it does steel (iron oxide aka rust). But people just don’t recognize the aluminum is deteriorating away because it just looks dull and the dull layer slows it from happening to the aluminum directly below it.

There are ATSM and ISO tests specifically for aluminum deterioration and salt spray test.

Yeah, the roofing and siding on my little camper looked great, other than it had dulled some and there was hail dents. After I got the roof and siding removed, it was more like swiss cheese. Plumb full of holes of varying sizes. I knew in an instant, that stuff was not getting used again.
I’ll have to go to the garage and look at the receipt, see how much the roofing and siding was. It came out of Hemet California and I think shipping to Miles City was about 300 bucks, I didnt think that was too bad.
If anyone thinks they want to rebuild an old camper, always start on the outside and work Your way inwards, siding is the last thing installed. At least on these older units.

 

[jrsavoie]

The campers I worked had the walls set on top of the flooring. Always got a kick out of that

 

[MrMarty51]

The campers I worked had the walls set on top of the flooring. Always got a kick out of that

That was how I set Mine up. I thought that was the proper way.
Is it better to bolt the wall direct to the frame ?