Towing Power?

[Extremesounds13]

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I posted this in another forum and didn't really get any answers so I will try it here, Thanks in advance.

Okay so I have had my truck for about 8 months now and I have done a lot of work to make it a lot more powerful and reliable truck but, I got out my 24 foot sled trailer loaded with four sleds and went up snowmobiling; it tows better but not that great. The trailer is only 2400 pounds and then four sleds at about 500 pounds a piece so 4400 pounds plus more for four passengers and gear. My question is with all the mods going 65 down the highway required 10 pounds of boost and between 800-900 EGT; then I got to the big hill. I had to drop the tranny down a to third then second a father up the hill, but I was reaching about 1200 degrees and pushing about 15 pounds of boost and I could only go up the hill at 40 miles an hour. Does this sound right for only this much weight, I have read about people pulling way more with there 6.5. Do I need to look at water/meth injection or maybe propane or does the truck have a problem. Oh yea the truck has PMD, 4" exhaust, intake, chip, gauges, cooling upgrades all from SS Diesel Supply. Sorry for the long post any help is appreciated. Oh and the motor never got over 200 degrees on the big pull, cooling upgrades did awsome. Just need more power.

 

[Extremesounds13]

And since this happened I had the chance to make the same pull again with the same trailer and sleds; so basically the same senario but this time I left it in third and just got on it a little more, I was able to maintain 50 miles an hour this time but my EGT's leveled of around 1200 degrees which worries me a bit, but the engine temp was just fine. Since being on this forum read about the A team turbo and I am planing to get it and some new injectors(standard or high output??) but I want to make sure the truck is running right before I spend the money on these two thing; and my wife got me water/meth injection for christmas so I will get that on soon and post results.

 

[chrisk1500]

At this point, I would be looking at intercooling or the ATT upgrade....you are on the right track with your upgrades, but your GM4 is holding you back on long pulls...

 

[daustin]

My '93 3500 DRW pulls pretty good, i've been up some pretty good grades pulling about 8000lbs at 65mph locked up in OD. I don't have the TCC mod, but i have a GM-8, 3" downpipe/straight exhaust and 1/4 turned up 4911 IP. I do have 4.10's too, i've found that mine really likes 65mph pulling. I usually set the cruise control on the interstates and just cruise with the trailer & car behind. Almost never know it's there. Mine runs about 1050F egt, around 195-200F coolant temp up the mountains in N Ga, Tenn and Alabama. I'm not intercooled either, but the GM-8 is much better for my application than the GM-3 i had. I'd be willing to bet the A team turbo will help you a lot.
Don

 

[DEERE3594]

Im no help.. I pull a 3 horse goose neck with living quarters and I bog down to 40 or 45 mph on the interstate with the hills. and not even big hills. I dont over heat but I never WOT it either... To me it is slow and steady or 50k for a new truck. and thats not for me.

 

[Extremesounds13]

Ya I think the A team turbo and some new injectors are next then. Should I get high output injectors or standard? Bill heath reccomended standard cause the others cause to much heat, but I think that with that turbo I might need the extra fuel. Also Bill told me to get rid of my SSD chip and get the GL4 chip that he has for towing, even though it is only a 40 horse chip. What do you all think?

 

[docdray]

you will notice our trucks are similiar and yes, about the same on pulling except my pre egts run about 1100@ 12 psi with 5500 lbs last run I made on steady grades. Normally I drop speed down to 45 to 55 depending on grade. In process of trying to get att and I understand Bill may have a tune for att in a modified GL4 chip near spring or I'll settle for the GL4. Whatever Bill has, its the best, not hyped, professionally made, and dependable. have bought from ss for price, think I'll stick with Bill from now on-heck, Bill has personally helped me on phone a couple of times.

 

[Turbine Doc]

Your 1200F won't happen with Heath chip, has not been confirmed but I suspect the SSD chip is a Hypertech which has cooked more than one engine, as it dumps dumps max fuel and boost, with little regard to the timing of injection which is a key component of power production overlooked by some "performance" products; add in h/o injectors and a recipe for disaster.

In order to tow big (I tow 18K# on occasion) you have to take systems approach to it, I ran IC with my GM-8, since going to ATT I've dropped that, will probably add in WMI if later this summer I find IAT is too high, Slim has towed 30K in Aug with his dually & ATT.

You need a right mix of products to tow big what is in my sig works for me.

E-13 what is your TDC offset at ?, auto or manual trans ? How many miles on yours ?? You running stock air filter & have you done a inner fender snorkle-ectemy

 

[JiFaire]

If you're running the SSDiesel 'Performance' intake, and sucking in hot air from under the hood while towing, then there's half of your problem.

The '80hp' chip does tend to ramp boost & fuel right up there, and with a GM4 turbo, you're bound to get some very high EGTs under load. That's the other half.

For what it's worth, I pull 9800 lb, high-front 5er. Since changing the exhaust, adding Bill's Turbomaster and Maxetork 2.0 chip, and doing some cooling and cleaning, I have no heating issues. I asked Bill about putting in Hi-pop injectors and he recommended that I stick with stock, as the hi-pop ones would promote overheating.

He knew I was gonna buy from him regardless, but still recommended I buy the stock (cheaper) injectors... the man turned down my money on the sale, preferring a happy customer. That should tell you something.

 

[tracy]

Make sure your crossover doesn't look like this.http://www.heathdiesel.com/P/HDP1349/Gallery/ edit! opps! check the little picture of the cut open crossover to the left of the pretty new Heath crossover.

 

[buddy]

Yes, your signature doesnt include the crossover change. Make sure you have done that, could be half your problem.

In Heath's land speed record machine he pulls air from the engine bay, granted further up because the batteries are gone, but that is not causing the problem in my mind, as I have had musclecars and older gasser trucks with carbeurator air filters under the hood that worked just fine.

I have the SSD intake and think it works great so far, but need to go pull something to see how it goes. The SSD chips are not Hypertech chips, I have a hypertech chip and an SSD chip. SSD definately modifies more than just fuel. I have the Engh motors cable and program so I can see everything each chip does. For my truck, one big performance advantage from a chip I found was advanced IP timing, like 9 degrees at idle, and the truck goes fast off the line. Check your timing make sure its not retarded below 3.5 degrees.

Bill Heath talks to you on the phone because he can't type And although it all seems professional and all, I'd really like to see some darn specifications, or something to tell me why his stuff is the way it is. I dont believe in trade secrets when anyone could reverse engineer it if they wanted to. I want to see some literature on the products.

If you mainly use the truck for hauling and usually under load the turbomaster makes sense to get. But if most of your driving is empty or you just haul stuff in the bed, then using the stock vacuum system conserves more fuel, since the ECM can actually control the boost. If you dont care about fuel mileage or you are usually under load anyway, the turbomaster makes sense to get rid of more vacuum mess.

 

[Extremesounds13]

My truck is an auto and it has 184,000 on it; which is why I am going to get injectors ASAP cause I have no idea if they have been done or not. It starts easy but I don't have very good fuel milage and the heat when towing. I am not sure what my TDC is set at, I will have to check it. It looks like I need to get the crossover done ASAP to as I didn't do it when I did the rest of the exhaust. I do have the SSD intake and I know it sucks hot air, hopefully Bill will get his cold air done soon. I use the truck for mostly towing(90%) of the time so that is what I want it set up to do, lots of power to pull but I want to make sure the truck lasts me a long time. I don't think I am going to get the turbomaster now because I am putting money in the jar for the ATT!!

 

[JiFaire]

In Heath's land speed record machine he pulls air from the engine bay, granted further up because the batteries are gone, but that is not causing the problem in my mind, as I have had musclecars and older gasser trucks with carbeurator air filters under the hood that worked just fine.

Yeah, but this ain't a gasser, and your musclecars weren't turbo'ed... and my old 427 1 ton pulled a LOT better once I cut a hole in the hood and built me a shaker to pull in outside air. In our trucks, when IATs climb up, power falls off. Every time.

I have the SSD intake and think it works great so far, but need to go pull something to see how it goes. The SSD chips are not Hypertech chips, I have a hypertech chip and an SSD chip. SSD definately modifies more than just fuel.

I'm interested... do you have the SSD '40 hp' chip or the '80 hp' chip? They're made by different people...

I have the Engh motors cable and program so I can see everything each chip does. For my truck, one big performance advantage from a chip I found was advanced IP timing, like 9 degrees at idle, and the truck goes fast off the line. Check your timing make sure its not retarded below 3.5 degrees.

yeah, Stefan's is sweet, eh?

Bill Heath talks to you on the phone because he can't type And although it all seems professional and all, I'd really like to see some darn specifications, or something to tell me why his stuff is the way it is. I dont believe in trade secrets when anyone could reverse engineer it if they wanted to. I want to see some literature on the products.

I've seen Bill type, and he definitely talks faster, but it isn't that... he hates the asynchronous nature of trying to carry on a conversation with somebody over the internet... it takes 3 days to accomplish what a 10-minute phone call does, and he says he gets far too many emails. If he carried out all his business on the 'net, he would never get OFF the computer, something i can relate to, as I get over 150 emails/work orders per day. Managing the 'paperless society' is more work than it's worth, sometimes.

As to why his stuff is the way it is, that is, as you indicated, proprietary. None of these guys will give away their programming tables. All I know is, it works and it works well.

If you mainly use the truck for hauling and usually under load the turbomaster makes sense to get. But if most of your driving is empty or you just haul stuff in the bed, then using the stock vacuum system conserves more fuel, since the ECM can actually control the boost. If you dont care about fuel mileage or you are usually under load anyway, the turbomaster makes sense to get rid of more vacuum mess.

I hear ya... but the wierdest thing happened... I got a turbomaster and chip at the same time (yeah, I know... stoopid, 'cause I can't tell which one did it) and my power went up, my fuel mileage (loaded AND unloaded) went up, and my boost problems disappeared.

I wish I knew if the truck really WOULD get better mileage (empty) without the TM, but... can't help ya there.

 

[buddy]

Well if you want it to be the most reliable for a long time, I would think putting on the ATT would be slightly hazardous, to increase the potential of damaging something, since its not a drop in replacement and provides more boost. Propane is a great way to add loads more power, lower IATs, and increase fuel economy, while not increasing EGTs.

the fastest 6.5 out there still uses underhood intake with no IC. And yes, these aren't gassers but that doesnt mean the same principles of air density dont apply. Any vehicle will run better with more dense air, colder air, so yes underhood is not ideal, but its probably not causing this specific problem. water injection is a good solution to high IATs, and thats actually what heath used. With the small amount of boost we use and the low HP, a simple injection system will do fine. The newer trucks with 3 times the boost and 4 times the HP need more complicated controlling and are more sensitive to IAT temps. I'm considering relocating the passanger side battery though to make a better intake system.

Stefan has stopped answering my questions I've had him look so much up. He finally made me a custom chip for my truck, because I have a C1500 L56 but wanted an L65 program and he hadnt done a C2500 L65 yet I guess everyone has 4WD, should get that in a week or so, cost less and no core return needed. Hypertech doesnt even make chips anymore, they told me they stopped 2 years ago when I asked about specs on my chip. Hypertech chips had a custom PCB thing without the cover, but SSD just reprograms the blue chips. I have the SSDS fuel miser chip, but only just got it. I also have 3 stock chips, sent one back as a core return too, for a manual 95 3500, but it ran great in 1st gear. I've been messing around with the truck a lot, reading the parameters, etc. I need a GM manual though to see exactly whats in tolerance. A 95 K2500 L65 stock chip is running really well in my 94 C1500, I'm comparing other chips. Will post a thread on how I think each is in a month or so.

Youre the first person Ive seen say they increased empty fuel mileage with a turbo master.

 

[jbsaxman]

Well if you want it to be the most reliable for a long time, I would think putting on the ATT would be slightly hazardous, to increase the potential of damaging something, since its not a drop in replacement and provides more boost. Propane is a great way to add loads more power, lower IATs, and increase fuel economy, while not increasing EGTs.

LOL. This is funny, actually. For starters, I don't think the ATT provides more boost as far as PSI. Maybe CFM, but not PSI. Actually, from the numbers I've read, it actually boosts at a LOWER PSI than the GM-X series turbos.

Also, remember, this is an IDI...propane USUALLY means pre-detonation which USUALLY means the engine goes boom. Why do you think there isn't a bolt on application for the 6.5? I have heard Heath is working on a propane setup, but so far have not heard whether it's going to happen for sure or not.

Either way, ATT and water injection are by FAR the safer choice for your motor than propane ever will be.

Youre the first person Ive seen say they increased empty fuel mileage with a turbo master.

In Jim's defense...he didn't say that his mileage increased with a turbo master. He said his mileage increased with a turbo master AND the chip replacement. He even flat out says he doesn't know which caused the increased mileage or if it was a combination of both, just that he noticed when he put both on his truck that his mileage increased.

I really don't know what your argument is regarding IAT's and power. The consensus from where I sit is that the higher the IAT's the less dense the air, the less dense the air, the lower the concentration of O2. The lower the O2, the less catalyst there is to burn the diesel. This means less power and higher EGT's.

It really doesn't matter where you get the cooler air from, just as long as you get it.

 

[Turbine Doc]

Well if you want it to be the most reliable for a long time, I would think putting on the ATT would be slightly hazardous, to increase the potential of damaging something, since its not a drop in replacement and provides more boost. Propane is a great way to add loads more power, lower IATs, and increase fuel economy, while not increasing EGTs.

the fastest 6.5 out there still uses underhood intake with no IC. And yes, these aren't gassers but that doesnt mean the same principles of air density dont apply. Any vehicle will run better with more dense air, colder air, so yes underhood is not ideal, but its probably not causing this specific problem. water injection is a good solution to high IATs, and thats actually what heath used. With the small amount of boost we use and the low HP, a simple injection system will do fine. The newer trucks with 3 times the boost and 4 times the HP need more complicated controlling and are more sensitive to IAT temps. I'm considering relocating the passanger side battery though to make a better intake system.

Stefan has stopped answering my questions I've had him look so much up. He finally made me a custom chip for my truck, because I have a C1500 L56 but wanted an L65 program and he hadnt done a C2500 L65 yet I guess everyone has 4WD, should get that in a week or so, cost less and no core return needed. Hypertech doesnt even make chips anymore, they told me they stopped 2 years ago when I asked about specs on my chip. Hypertech chips had a custom PCB thing without the cover, but SSD just reprograms the blue chips. I have the SSDS fuel miser chip, but only just got it. I also have 3 stock chips, sent one back as a core return too, for a manual 95 3500, but it ran great in 1st gear. I've been messing around with the truck a lot, reading the parameters, etc. I need a GM manual though to see exactly whats in tolerance. A 95 K2500 L65 stock chip is running really well in my 94 C1500, I'm comparing other chips. Will post a thread on how I think each is in a month or so.

Youre the first person Ive seen say they increased empty fuel mileage with a turbo master.

Several misconceptions here Buddy The ATT is drop in replacement wasn't at 1st but is now, & reason it has taken so long for Slim to offer it for sale, he wanted for it to be as drop in as possible,.

You need to have a look at the data in the replacement turbo thread, all data there shows improved longevity as opposed to diminished life should be net result, I'm over 10K miles with my ATT, truck runs cooler & less stress than it did with the GM-8 it came with, so much improved I eliminated the IC that was necessary for max output from the GM-8.

As it turns out for mpg some pre-heat is desireable 150F is a number I was given as to the optimum IAT temp for the 6.5, and possibly what GM program tries to do with randomness of way boost is modulated to maximize mpg, especially in 1500's & EGR'd 2500's. But power is compromised, drive the 6.5 in stock config and you get "boost dance" I like to call it, cruising up a hill with load, moderate boost 2-3 psi, then as turbo starts to lose it's grunt, truck begins to lose speed, PCM senses the loss then goes to max fuerl to recover lost power, boost to 10-15 psi, cut back to 2-3 then back up, mpg can not be sustained with that kind of fuel-defuel, couple in high back pressure of the GM-X turbo at higher boost and is't an overall game loser, only managed by coming out of cruise control,and driver anticipating need for more fuel, and adding more pressure on APP.

Same hills/loads that used to make the truck "boost dance" I now can run with cruise control on, PCM adds fuel and boost comes up smoothly no harsh ramp up/down in speed as fuel/boost are added, whole different towing experience.

As far as TM=lower mpg, possibly depending how far down one has TM cranked, if set to recommended spring tension mpg will remain same as without a TM, if cranked down beyond recommended setting mpg can suffer at higher boost levels as compressor is trying to work against the back pressure in turbine/turbo outlet area.

 

[Slim Shady]

Well if you want it to be the most reliable for a long time, I would think putting on the ATT would be slightly hazardous, to increase the potential of damaging something, since its not a drop in replacement and provides more boost. Propane is a great way to add loads more power, lower IATs, and increase fuel economy, while not increasing EGTs.

the fastest 6.5 out there still uses underhood intake with no IC. And yes, these aren't gassers but that doesnt mean the same principles of air density dont apply. Any vehicle will run better with more dense air, colder air, so yes underhood is not ideal, but its probably not causing this specific problem. water injection is a good solution to high IATs, and thats actually what heath used. With the small amount of boost we use and the low HP, a simple injection system will do fine. The newer trucks with 3 times the boost and 4 times the HP need more complicated controlling and are more sensitive to IAT temps. I'm considering relocating the passanger side battery though to make a better intake system.

Stefan has stopped answering my questions I've had him look so much up. He finally made me a custom chip for my truck, because I have a C1500 L56 but wanted an L65 program and he hadnt done a C2500 L65 yet I guess everyone has 4WD, should get that in a week or so, cost less and no core return needed. Hypertech doesnt even make chips anymore, they told me they stopped 2 years ago when I asked about specs on my chip. Hypertech chips had a custom PCB thing without the cover, but SSD just reprograms the blue chips. I have the SSDS fuel miser chip, but only just got it. I also have 3 stock chips, sent one back as a core return too, for a manual 95 3500, but it ran great in 1st gear. I've been messing around with the truck a lot, reading the parameters, etc. I need a GM manual though to see exactly whats in tolerance. A 95 K2500 L65 stock chip is running really well in my 94 C1500, I'm comparing other chips. Will post a thread on how I think each is in a month or so.

Youre the first person Ive seen say they increased empty fuel mileage with a turbo master.

Well let me be the first (well not the first). The ATT turbo will not add any stress to our engine, quite the contrary, it relive the stress of a (tight) engine caused by excessive back pressure and extreme intake air temps. The turbo master regulates boost by exhaust back pressure, the ATT turbo regulates boost by fuel and exhaust heat not by back pressure,

Turbo basics, turbo chargers recover waste heat to drive a turbine: not by exhaust back pressure, back pressure robs engine performance. The art of turbo charging is not done by math alone, (most engineers will disagree).

As far as drop in replacement, it is as close as you can get, uses everything factory but with a few tweaks / mods to a couple of factory items. Ask a few of the people that have installed them what they think before condeming the product: please.

 

[buddy]

Im not arguiing with anyone so no need to get uppedy axeman.

I certainly didnt say the ATT is not a good turbo. Thanks for the info TurbineDoc and Shady. Maybe it is more reliable, but its different, and plenty of people have had reliable trucks with what it came with. Thats all I meant.

The stock vacuum configuration will also control boost by fuel and intake temps. Pressure out of the engine, or backpressure, with the greatest pressure difference to the turbo exhaust should provide greatest power, is why we have large exhaust pipes. Having a more efficient spool up with better pitched turbine is a good upgrade though.

Propane does not cause early detonation, just greater/better combustion, as it has a higher resistance to detonation than the diesel fuel. It lowers IATs as well, lowers RPMs needed to make power, and will provide a crap ton more power than anything else you stap on the engine for a lower price. There is more than one kit for the 6.5, and I even read about a 300HP propaned 6.5 in MaxxTorque. We dont have complicated engines, so a simple system is easy to run.

 

[docdray]

re: mileage and power, mine averaged roughly 1 mpg better on a consistant basis with TM. HP4(added later) did not change much except stronger power curve. unload @65 13.9mpg,@55 18.03 load 11.7mpg @ 62

 

[Extremesounds13]

I have to agree with Turbine doc and slim I read the whole thread on the turbo and it defiantly makes the truck work a lot better in all aspects. Maybe propane later; but as long as my truck seems to be working fine(general consensus?) then I will be saving for the turbo after I do the injectors.