Starting problem

[Leekeeler]

I have a 1999 motorhome with a 6.5 turbo in it. For a while now when I go to start it after glow plugs warmed the starter just clicks and then when I try it again it starts like normal. I have checked all the grounds the best I could and see no apparent problem. Have newer batteries and always charged. I was thinking it might be the switch or the solenoid, but not sure how to determine. It has not left me stranded, but always wondering when it will. I have had this unit since it was new and the original starter is still in it. There is 98,000 miles on it and I completely rebuilt and balanced the engine at 70,000. Any suggestions would be appreciated

 

[BIGR]

Welcome LeeKeeler, some of the guys will chime in with some suggestions.

 

[Leekeeler]

Thanks for the welcome. Just stumbled on to this page. Look forward to some replies.

 

[Will L.]

Welcome.
If you can post a video to YouTube and put the link here it would make diagnoses easier.

By the description I would think starter solenoid. In which case - powermaster 9052. By far the best starter for this engine- sure makes them start faster.

 

[Leekeeler]

Thanks Will. Is the power master a direct fit or is some modification required? It is about double the OE part from SS Diesel Supply, however their price for the Power Master is $491 compared to the $290 range from several others.

Lee

 

[MrMarty51]

When My 2000 K3500 does that, i pull the battery cables from the battery(side terminal) and peel back the insulatirs, a good soaking in soda water and a wire brush to make them bright and shiny and goes good as new once again. The one component that fails the most is that spacer between the two positive battery cables.
Welcome to the forum Lee.
Having a balanced 6.5 would be a special treat. Better than dairy queen.

 

[Will L.]

Marty is right, i jumped to the starter too soon. Make sure batteries are fully charged and cables have good clean connections.

Stay away from ss diesel. SSSOOOOO many rip off stories besides just mine. And their glowplugs killed more 6.5 engines than all others I have heard of from breaking off and destroying pistons.

A regular ac delco starter from rockauto or your local Autoparts store is ok. The powermaster is just the Rolls Royce. I always suggest two new mainstarter bolts because they are cheap #15544950. Make sure to use the front brace that goes to the engine also. Not having it will ruin the block by breaking off the ear.

pull the starter and test it before buying is a good idea.

Be careful listening to me btw, I will help you spend all your money and half your next door neighbors. haha

 

[MrMarty51]

First time starter problems with My truck, pulled the starter and took it allll apart. Brushes and bearings, lube and back together. The battery cable end that bolts to the starter was corodded real bad, cleaned that up and then proceeded on to the battery end of the cables. That was when I discovered how bad that lead spacer was, between tje cables. Got it all cleaned up and back together, engine spun over faster than I could imagine. The battery voltage on tje dash went from the center mark to two marks over, multi meter confirmed 14.2 volts. WOW, probably not the best thing for the battery but it sure made the starter spin over, just kept a close watch on battery juice.

 

[WarWagon]

No, actually get the Powermaster. Quality parts are getting real hard to find. The Powermaster also cranks faster with less amps due to the permanent magnet motor.

I ran into a local shop that was one of the first to get the new wave of Krap Communist China Starter Solenoids used in rebuilding 6.5 starters.

You can check that the voltage is like 9V at the small ign wire on the starter and 11V at the battery terminal on the starter when attempting to crank. It's possible you have a bad positive cable or connection to the starter. Thus the test if you want too before getting a new starter.

Mine would "bang!" and fail to start 3 of 4 times. Two starters in a row.

 

[Husker6.5]

Ditto on the battery/starter cable connections. And yes what Marty said about the lead cylindrical crush spacer that goes between the two stacked positive cables on the second battery, the one from the first battery and the cable that runs to the starter, being bad.

After the third or fourth time those cables have been taken off/apart and retightened, that lead spacer is flattened beyond electrical usefulness as the terminal bolt bottoms out before the cable end - washer - cable end sandwich can clamp together tight enough to ensure sufficient current transfer, not voltage, to kick the starter over once the solenoid contacts close. Another idiosyncrasy of the 6.5 platform. Definitely check and clean all positive cable connections and negative and ground cable connections before sinking money into a starter you may not need.

If you do wind up needing a new starter, either have a trusted local automotive repair shop do the rebuild using all American made parts, especially the solenoid, or bite the bullet and buy a Power Master starter. Do NOT buy a new or "reman" starter from any of the automotive chain stores (Advance, O'Reilly's, AutoZone, Pep Boys, Carquest) or local jobbers (whose suppliers are the same as the big chains, just relabeled) as they are all junk anymore.

 

[Leekeeler]

Thanks for all your replies. I will check all the cables and connection closer and clean everything good and if next step needed and will pull the starter and have it checked before I order a new starter. Sure do understand about the local chain automotive stores. I was really surprised at some of the inferior parts i recently got from NAPA. They had been our go to store until a few years ago.

 

[Will L.]

Thats why so many are happy with the powermaster starter- Buy once cry once.
It’s only a 1 year warranty but except for me destroying one offroad and balancing my hummer on a piece of rebar breaking the housing of the starter, I have only heard of one other person that didn’t get a lot of years out of them. I also learned too late (threw my shattered one away) that they will do repairs, rebuild, etc out of warranty and often don’t charge for it. Luckily our factory alternators are quality but what the put in an rv- ?? So if the alternator dies later check them out for that too. They have engineers you can talk to and go over your exact load to build you a proper sized alternator. Not undercharging is obviously big but most folks don’t know overcharge or to quick a charge is What shortens battery life.

If you haven’t already- check the stickies and library for tons of good 6.5 info to keep it running a long time.

Out of interest.. do you know the weight of yours and your average mpg? Aerodynamics plays a big part too, but that is hard to figure in.

 

[Leekeeler]

I believe the coach is in the 18,000 lb area. The 6.5 is under powered for the size of this unit. Slow going up the mountains, but always have made it over. I regularly get 9 - 10 mpg. Have gotten as high as 13mpg, but that was probably going across Wyoming with a high tail wind. We purchased it new and really love it.

 

[WarWagon]

Checking the starter is a waste of everyone's time as this failure will bench test "fine". The engine load on the motor is where the garbage contacts fail. If the voltage checks out the starter has problems, period. I went through this at a local rebuild shop saying it's fine till I showed them the video. And I HATE changing 6.5 starters and PS pumps.

One of the best power and MPG improvements you can get out of a 6.5TD in high load use like yours is a bigger turbo. The factory turbo is as asthma attack on the engine over 2200 RPM. Word is you can bump up to 12+ MPG with a ATT turbo. I went from 7.5 MPG to 10.4 MPG and faster MPH on grades towing. (See the for sale section as I have an ATT for sale.) You would likely need a tune for boost codes as well.

In depth on the OEM GM turbo mess.

The 6.5L Diesel Factory Equipped Asthma Attack

Online Diesel Community featuring news and articles on 6.2L, 6.5L and Duramax GM diesel engines, Ford Powerstroke, Chevy Cruise, lubrication and more.

www.maxxtorque.com

This is "Old School" as there are many turbo choices out now. Back then it was a real war to suggest changing out the restrictive factory turbo. The huge towing turbo's trade the low RPM boost for Fright Train lean you back into the seat over 2000 RPM - to redline when they light off. As you have high load the bigger turbo is a good choice over a light load DD pickup use.

 

[Husker6.5]

@Leekeeler, I see you're an FMCA member! This year's convention was supposed to be here in Lincoln this summer at the Lancaster Event Center (it has a 1200+ space RV park!) until the Pandemic cancelled it and the High School National Rodeo Finals this summer .

My family first joined FMCA back in 1973 when dad purchased our first motorhome (after going on vacations first in our '67 Dodge van with three cots, a cooler and a bassinet for my baby sister as a "camper" in 1969 for a long summer vacation through Kansas to Abeline, Garden City, Dodge City to southern Colorado, then up the Front Range to Royal Gorge, then up through Wyoming to Devil's Tower, over to Rapid City, down to Mt. Rushmore, Needles, Wind Cave, Hot Springs, Pine Ridge, Chadron SP, home. The next big vacation, 1970, was pulling a family friend's Apache Ramada hardside pop-up camper behind mom's Chrysler Imperial to southern Colorado to the Alamosa/Antonito area to see narrow gauge steam railroads, ride the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic RR, over to Durango to ride the Durango and Silverton, Mesa Verde, Four Corners, Albuquerque and back home.

In early 1973, dad bought our first motorhome, a private party conversion of a 1946 Brill Trailways bus out of New Jersey (powered by a straight six, horizontal [lays on its side] midships mounted Hall-Scott gasoline engine backed by a Spicer non-syncro 4 speed stick with electronic reverse, averaged about 6mpg, 100 gal fuel tank, gas was about $0.30/gal back then!) and joined FMCA later that year, our membership number was 7982 as the newest members! After several short shakedown runs camping during the summer of '73, like to Lake of the Ozarks, our first big family trip was that winter to New Mexico, Arizona (Petrified Forest, Grand Canyon) LA, San Diego, El Paso and then Dallas for the 1974 Cotton Bowl, Huskers defeating the Longhorns! That summer ('74), the Brill was used to take seven Scouts and five adult leaders/dads, our Troop's six rack canoe/equipment trailer and us for our High Adventure canoe trip (7 days and 65 miles canoeing) to Boundary Waters on the Minnesota-Canada border.

We attended the 1974 FMCA Convention in Duquoin, IL at the State Fair Grounds (and famous home of trotter harness racing, too) later that summer. That winter, a trip to New Orleans in the Brill for the December 31, 1974 Huskers vs Gators Sugar Bowl. Nebraska won, then after the game going down to Bourbon Street in the French Quarter to ring in the New Year!

In summer 1975 we did Lincoln to San Fransisco (crawling up the Sisters on I-80 past Green River on the shoulder, 15-20mph in second gear, no fun!), with a stop to ride the steam powered Heber Creeper in Utah. After staying a week at an R/V park in Half Moon Bay south of San Fransisco while taking day trips into SF. Then up the 101 and NoCal coast to Eureka, with a detour to Ft. Bragg, CA to ride the Super Skunk, a narrow gauge steam logging railroad that ran through the coastal Redwood forests to Willits, CA, then up to Crescent City, CA and cut over to I-5 and up to Salem, OR for the 1975 FMCA convention. Afterwards up to Seattle, then over to Yakima, down to The Dalles, then Boise, ID, SLC and I-80 home.

After the 1975 Convention, dad bought a Lifetime Membership in FMCA, after selling the Brill and buying a used 1972 Angola Coach (Angola, IN) conversion of a 1956 Flixible VL100 ex-Trailways bus (looks like the old Greyhound SceniCruisers). Really nice conversion, rode great, repowered by a 6-71T Detroit backed by another Spicer non-syncro! Max speed was 75MPH (speed limits were 55MPH Nationally) and it got consistently 10-12MPG on the highway, 120 gallon fuel tank and diesel was $0.15-$0.18/gal! We would always leave on a trip with a full tank of #2 Heating Oil/non-road Diesel at $0.08/gal from our 500 gallon Farm Tank (our house, built in 1961, had a fuel oil furnace in it with a 150 gal basement tank, the 500 was for if we were snowed in and the fueling truck couldn't get to us/fueling up the bus/tractor and later on diesel Benz and Peugeot)!

The 1976 FMCA Convention was in the Lower Peninsula of Michigan (I can't remember the city) but that was the tail end of our 3½ week Bicentennial Summer Trip, that started out July 4th weekend (my 15th B-Day) at the Nebraska-Iowa FMCA Chapter get together at Lake Okobogi, IA. Then headed east through WV, with a stop to ride the Cass Scenic Railway, a steam gear drive logging railroad in Pocahontas County, WV that goes to the top of a mountain where you can look into three States. Driving those WV back holler highways with their hairpins and grades, with a 40' bus pulling a car and having the turbo blow a hose from the compressor to the intake made for very slow, VERY smoky and not so fun driving! Thank goodness back then EVERY diesel mechanic knew how to work on Detroits! Then Virginia with a day at Monticello, a day at Mt. Vernon, three nights at a campground in Arlington, VA while seeing DC and participating in the Smithsonian's exhibition on the National Mall (and ditching my parents for a day to see and do what I wanted in DC as far as museums, etc. then catching the last city bus of the day back to the stop a few blocks from the campground and returning back at 11pm that night!). Up the coast to Baltimore and a tour of Annapolis Naval Academy, over the bridge and up the DelMarVa Peninsula to Haddon Heights, NJ, where dad grew up and parked at grandma's house for a day while revisiting the sights of Philly (Independence Hall, etc) briefly, the up the Palisades past NYC, to Mystic Seaport, a couple of days in Boston seeing things like the Old North Church, Boston Harbor, Bunker (Breed's) Hill, Concord and Lexington, Salem. Then up across New Hampshire and spent the night in Montpelier, Vermont, through the Green Mountains, across to the Finger Lakes region and Lake Champlain, NY to Montreal, QC the day before the start of the 76 Summer Olympics, then drove along the St. Laurence River to Kingston, ON where we stopped for lunch at a sidewalk cafe just in time for the motorcade escorting the Olympic Torch Bearer to drive by, followed by the runner himself, carrying the Torch! Drove to Windsor, ON, then through the tunnel to Detroit, MI and spent the night somewhere outside Detroit. Next day, on to the FMCA Convention.

I didn't make it to Calgary, AB for the 1977 FMCA Convention. While my parents and little sister drove up to Canada, I was out in LA for two weeks visiting my paternal grandfather, flew back to Lincoln, and three days later left with the contingent from my Scout Council to drive to the 1977 National Scout Jamboree in Moraine State Park, Pennsylvania north of Pittsburgh.

I found the old (7982) FMCA plates from the Brill going through dad's things after he passed in January 2018. Never found the Lifetime Membership Plates that were on the Flixible. It was sold in the late 1980's during my parents divorce. I assume the Lifetime Number stays with the owner, not the vehicle(s). IIRC, the plate number was a low one, like 1XXX. If you have a Membership Roster (I don't) could you see if they list the Lifetime Number for Ira Schreiber?

 

[Will L.]

That is a cool rv.
the bigger turbo like the ATT- many people worry it will be harder on the engine because more power is delivered. Truth is the proper size turbo instead of the too small one extends the life by working the turbo more and the engine less. Lowering boost but more volume is easier on the cylinder and lowers egt/ ect pretty well.

 

[Husker6.5]

@Leekeeler, @3bals has a 6.5-powered mid-sized Class A motorhome based off the P-30 chassis. He drove down from the Twin Cities, picked me up here in Lincoln, and we drove out to Reno to pick it up. Put his Aveo on a toter and towed it back behind the motorhome. That was February 28, 2011. I-80 through Wyoming at altitude with stretches ½ mile or longer of completely iced and snow packed both lanes with 30-40mph crosswinds with a car in tow - fun in a sphincter-puckering way!

Anyway, Jody (3bals) did a repower with a Peninsular Diesel 6.5, that runs what I believe is a Borg-Warner S200-based turbo coupled to a super heavy-duty 4L80E rebuild.

 

[Husker6.5]

Pretty much any turbo (within certain restrictions) other than the stock GM-x on our 6.5's is a VAST improvement. Borg-Warner S-200 series, ATT, Holset 35/40 hybrid, Holset 40ii CKO, or the VGT off of either a Cummins or Duramax have all been used with much better results than the Wheeze-A-Matic Thermal Bomb that came from the factory on the 6.5.

 

[Jaryd]

I have a set of factory service manuals for that motorhome that I’d sell.

 

[Will L.]

Random score!
Is that thing ds4?
Center or side mount turbo?