Savana Camper project II

[WarWagon]

Time for a Reality Check. The 6.5 diesel engine equipped with a Asthma Attack GMx turbo is not going to deliver better MPG over the same or higher HP/TQ gas engine.

So you have ARP head studs in your quest for more boost? 14 PSI is the redline for the GMx turbo's. After 14 PSI they generate more boost by heating the air vs. more volume. Then the turbo is way off the compressor map running over redline RPM risking going "BOOM!". Altitude and boost creep takes a turbomaster set at 12 PSI sea level to 14 PSI at 8000' altitude. The back pressure is extreme as well when you push the GMx by holding the wastegate shut. Back pressure, aka exhaust restriction, means hot exhaust heats up the engine and requires the power sucking cooling fan to scream while your MPG hits the floor around 7 MPG. More boost gets you more power, but, the awful single digit MPG stays the same. On some grades towing with the GM3, that I tossed as scrap metal, I wonder if I hit GPM, Gallons Per Mile. KY isn't the Rocky Mountains, but, the hollers ain't exactly flat neither.

At this point with the GMx Asthma Attack sucking fuel and robbing the engine of any power you may as well sell the diesel engine and drop in a cheaper 454. Gasoline is cheaper than diesel esp. at nearly the same MPG. Seriously with a budget the MPG dealing with the GMx turbo on a areodynamic brick is going to be so bad that you should re-consider the powertrain choice. 6.0 Gas is better than a 454... Sorry that you are removing a gas engine and may find out this effort is for nothing but a higher overall expense and less reliable powertrain.

Otherwise pay now to get a better turbo in there on the 6.5 or pay later at the pump at every gas station you can't pass. Turbo exhaust housing being too damn small is not solvable by a wheel alone.

 

[JayTheCPA]

. . . may as well sell the diesel engine and drop in a cheaper 454. . . . 6.0 Gas is better than a 454...

Agree, this might prove a better path than re-twork the 6.5.

A buddy has a 6.0 gas with the 6 speed tranny in his motor-coach (about the same size vehicle as this project). That rig is getting 12 mpg at 55 mph running up and down the East Coast.

 

[Jaryd]

@SplitSsss How Is the project coming. Got any updates

 

[FellowTraveler]

It is all good. Remember -if you do not know if you do not use the other one of the tanks religiously algae could begin to grow from condensation if it is not at least kept full.

I've found that bugs are more an issue more than algae in the newer diesel fuel so treatment has become an important PM as well as keeping some extra fuel filters handy for worse case situations.

The aux tank in my Burb is the transfer type and the single BIGGEST issue has been getting a bad batch of fuel mostly contaminated with water never had algae problem but those micro bugs did rear their ugly head while I was doing my conversion as the tanks sat partially filled for 2 and 1/4 years I just hot wired the lift pump and drained the fuel through a filter funnel a few times then treated it and all is well.

 

[royunion]

It is all good.

If you have a budget - look at my post to how to do the lift pump yourself - which should save at least $100 for the same rotary vane LP set up

I know this post is old now - but I thought I would share - it is now a sad day for 6.5 drivers everywhere as Carter has recently destroyed the P4601HP fuel pump value many of us depended on.

It is NO LONGER a 9 to 18 psi pump or American made. IT IS NOW CHINESE with a 6 to 9.5 psi output - but still has the same part number - and I ordered one to replace mine which getting weak and what arrived was a pump with no markings on it anywhere - which was supposed to have 3/8 NPT inlet and outlet - and what it had was 1/4 NPT inlet and outlet even though the hardware mounting bag had 3/8 NPT hose barbs.

Peeling back the label from the one covering the Carter UPC label with the one from Amazon revealed underneath "Made in China" on the Carter UPC label- and you guessed it - back it went to Amazon

So I ordered an e8257 - Airtex which was supposed to be 7 to 9 psi, and it lasted two weeks before it dropped to 4 psi max pressure after the filter. WTF ?? I changed the fuel filter - which was two years old and it got me a whole extra 1 psi more. See https://www.opticatonline.com/part/dvdk-0-airtex-e8257 and for the p4601HP see https://carter.opticatonline.com/part/bcqs-0-carter-p4601hp

Off it came too in two weeks and I put on a Sure Cure Lift Pump Solution which has an axial type lift pump and regulator that pushes and holds 17 psi and is really quiet.

The average person - 6.5 driver - thinks that is overkill - but the DS4 IP is designed for 5 to 18 psi at idle or Wide Open Throttle (WOT) to work properly and no damage itself or load the PMD which drives the Fuel Solenoid necessarily. in essence, the pressure in the pump causes it to idle without electrical assistance from the fuel solenoid and accelerate the vehicle with minimum assistance - and that is why if during a DS4 rebuild if the Fuel Solenoid is not set correctly with a dial indicator and fresh crush ring - it will not idle right or the engine can also "runaway".

The OEM lift pumps are supposed to sec and push 10 to 12 psi - but they do not for more than a few days to a month at the best - then they just get progressively weaker until finally you blow a PMD

A look at the PMD connector cable and the third connector from the end - which is 12 volts power at start and run - is the one which turns "blue" and looses temper to hold a tight electrical connection from all the current that has to flow through it to drive the Fuel Solenoid - why it called a "Fuel Solenoid Driver" (FSD a.k.a the PMD - or Pump Mounted Driver) AND it causes rough running and cutout and hiccups with that loose electrical connection - and usually you can get it started again and many have though the PMD is bad onlky to replace it and find the problem still there

With good fuel pressure at the DS4 - two things happen in the DS4 as designed - there is enough internal "governing type" fuel pressure to hold the fuel solenoid throttle plate open as required with minimal electromagnet assistance from the Fuel Solenoid - keeping the PMD cooler, and there is enough pressure to keep the IP fuel under pressure to internally lubricate the parts reducing wear and open the return valve so the fuel can return to the tank and keep the IP cooler like a radiator does - which as designed was also supposed to keep the PMD cool with fresh fuel going past back to the tank. It idles smooth and easy.

So when I heard my engine idling just a little bit higher - like about 40 rpm more than 600 all the time I knew the lift pump needed to go.

It was just a sad day to find out the options for inexpensive replacement lift pumps that can push and hold 9 to 18 psi is now largely gone.

 

[royunion]

I've found that bugs are more an issue more than algae in the newer diesel fuel so treatment has become an important PM as well as keeping some extra fuel filters handy for worse case situations.

Believe it or not - the new Lift Pump I bought had apparently been tested at the factory with water - and what initially came out was a few clumps of mold and what ever other crud was in there. It plugged my brand new fuel filter and I had to swap out a fuel filter two weeks old for a new one again

Since the OP @SplitSsss - is a pilot - and Diesel is basically lower grade Jet Fuel - an Airbus once got a load of fuel contaminated just slightly with ground salt water (due to it getting in to the lines during an airport underground fuel line upgrade project)- and it collapsed the filters in the fueling truck no one knew right away and then made it into the plane's fuel tanks and grew there and created a light scum just enough to clog the metering nozzles to the engines such to the point throttle control was lost - up or down - and first one engine had to be throttled back and went out and had to drop to idle, and then the second one had to be throttled back to idle and though they were near the airport - they were dropping to fast to make a glide path to the runway and just when the captain thought they were going to have to ditch in the South China sea - I believe - he tried throttling up the one engine just ever so slowly and it worked to get enough thrust on one engine to make the runway - and on touchdown he could not throttle back the engine - so he had to reverse thrust and ride the brakes for all there was ( and the fire trucks met the plane and hosed down the tires and brakes because they were about to catch fire) - and in the end any landing you can walk away from is a good landing - and it was all caused by contaminated fuel.

It is true story - from Air Crash Investigations - a TV documentary show

 

[Will L.]

I had an issue with ac delco part years ago, and was told if it was bought online- no warranty through AC Delco because there is no online authorized dealers

Today just got of phone with bosch over the faild glowplug. Only 1 online and that is amazon but has to be sold and shipped by them, not sold by “xx autoparts” and shipped by amazon. She said not even R.A.

She said This is because there are so many chinese knock offs being sold. I wonder if you called Carter what they would say. Could be they changed it up and china made by Carter’s doing, or maybe a knock off.
That really sucks if it is Carter, I was fixin to buy one from Leroy after the engine is together. Hmm.

 

[FellowTraveler]

Perhaps one of the most important gauges needed with a DS4 is fuel pressure.

Chinese parts you simply can not avoid them these days even Cummins operates there and even changed their logo colors to ☭ red back in 09 I think it was.

 

[royunion]

Perhaps one of the most important gauges needed with a DS4 is fuel pressure.

Chinese parts you simply can not avoid them these days even Cummins operates there and even changed their logo colors to ☭ red back in 09 I think it was.

It was genuine Carter that matched the optical catalog spec - says the origin country is China. Those wet motor canister pumps have very few applications today, and so one of the only places they are manufactured is China. They were based on patent with originally military contracts because they were more reliable than dry motor rotary vane pumps like the Holly Red, Blue and Black..

BUT... they do have a design flaw as far as Diesel is concerned - they tend to collect particulate matter in the motor can which slows the pumpimg ability due to the debris and slowing motor speed

I had a Carter 4594 go out one week and I could hear the sputtering motor speed and my gauge showed 3 psi pre-filter and 1 psi at the IP and it would not keep running with any attempt to accelerate beyond just lightly touching the accelerator pedal.

@WillL is correct about the Warranty game - the other trick they play is if the pump is not OEM specific to the application - they will not honor the warranty.

The reason Amazon honors the warranty is because of the California' Lemon law which is California's consumer protection law about warranty fraud that under California law even an online seller shipping into California MUST follow - not to discriminate it is done for all customers

In my case because I knew Walmart could ship me an E8257 literally just about overnight for free shipping and store pickup - since they drop ship from a local automotive warehouse distributor - and I knew at the time Amazon had a habit of holding order releases to shipping processing if it would appear the customer was getting one two day shipping for free because the item was warehoused close.

I put it on as direct replacement to the 4594 mounting hardware and lasted "MADE IN USA" on the bottom until it was the one that dropped the pressure to 4 psi when I started the process to replace it.

The Carter 4594 was my emergency spare that came with the sure cure lift pump kit and they said even though the pumps were lifetime warrantied by the manufacturers Airtex and Carter - neither would honor it because both Warranties said there was a non OEM application exclusion

I wrote to Amazon by US Mail as John Q Customer and told them if they stopped playing shipping games I could order more things from them. It seems they stopped and ship right away now.

I went back to where I got the kit and they now ship two axial pumps which do not collect debris instead send it on through and one spare 4 to 6 psi pump as an emergency spare - which the hardware is used for the first time mount.

I was shipped two replacement axial pumps and regulator for the price of basically it would cost me for one. So now have spare high pressure pump and I moved third E8257 to be the third emergency spare

I am fairly sure I blew one of the power transistors in the the PMD because I have learned that if I can't put my hand on the heatsink and hold it while engine is still on the PMD is going to be a problem for me soon and blow.

This all why I have a Db2 5079 mechanical IP I am converting to 12 volt and am working towards putting in as a PCM fool the system - system replacement for that DS4

Then I will able to make fuel from any oil petroleum or vegetable or anjmal

 

[Will L.]

There are different laws state by state that might offer more protection. But the amazon thing is that Amazon set themselves up as a certified Bosch distributor. I could buy bulk bosch, and mark up then sell through amazon. But anyone buying the ones that Amazon buys directly from bosch has a warranty. Anyone buying mine through amazon can only come after me for the warranty, bosch wont honor the product.

I fully agree with getting the db2, but man that seems like a hard way to do it. I don’t understand why keep the ecm at all.
Have you seen the “conversion book” (cant remember name) that was done by bobbie martin? Worth the read, its on here free somewhere. Bobbie is a genius in my world for finding a simple way to go ds4:db2 and to lead many lost ds4 souls to the db2 promised land- haha.

Seriously- tcm from van or hummer, manual pedal, couple minor other changes and BAM!

Once the ds4 and pmd are gone- ecm is pointless.
If manual trans, then no tcm. Tcm is really ecm that doesn’t bother with engine really. There is some info, but really why bother. Nothing of value lost at that point. Cruise control is about the biggest thing tcm helps.

Many with automatics just buy a stand alone controller. There are several made that are all ok. Different prices, different shift and lockup control capability. Spend according to your desires.
Then a manual throttle pedal from junkyard, summit, etc. again price/ preference.

The funniest thing is the obd2 requirement is the only reason gm did ds4. While working with their engineers on the testing when I worked for the oil company, I told them our db2 trucks were blowing cleaner on emissions than the ds4 trucks, and was wondering what was wrong. They both laughed and said- yeah we know, law says monitor, and meet levels, It didn’t say improve.

They knew back then the db2 was cleaner, and had more mpg, and more power capacity depending how you want it set up. Just a simple case of intention of the law didn’t work like it was intended. There is another Hummer guy that lives down the street that had ds4, and mine db2 that didn’t believe me (subject came up because my smog was due). So he went with me to smog dyno. My engine had just over 50,000 miles in it, his had 20,000ish, Mine blew 35% cleaner than his. I swung my timing in the parking lot to bring up power, I still blew 12-13% cleaner than his 100% stock rig.
Long term maybe the fuel monitoring rule helped, but sure not according to the diesel engine engineers that I’ve spoken to. They should just set the limit and let the engineers work out how to get there.
Sorry, rant over.

Not my hummer, but pickup-
On the multi fuel-I ran wmo heated through centrifuge, then cut with gas. I also added atf as lube, but small quantity. Just fuel up at home. Then if I forgot or was on road trip, just buy diesel and add in same tank. No truck modifications needed.

 

[Will L.]

Oh yeah, could you please post part numbers and how to in converting the db2 on it’s own thread? Maybe some pics along the way? There are plenty of folks that could help. Something like that could be sticky worthy imo.

 

[royunion]

Oh yeah, could you please post part numbers and how to in converting the db2 on it’s own thread? Maybe some pics along the way? There are plenty of folks that could help. Something like that could be sticky worthy imo.

.
A Db2 5079 is just a 24 volt version of a 4911 for turbo 6.5 with the hardened artic internals so it's just the solenoid and TPS. to change.

The PCM / ECM controls other things like a/c cruise control as well as the tranny as well as lift pump and glow plug circuit and other things. That is why PCM Power train Control Module and it cannot be removed legally

Plus assuming I get the DS4 out before it dies I will have it as spare to put back if the db2 crap cans somehow

The accelerator pedal I leave and add a cable connection Lever to the side.

I have seen the Db2 conversion pdf and I am not sure who wrote it. It speaks to analog sensors on the GM TCM. That won't work here to be legal

Back when the EPA and clean air regs went ODBII the wording used was that fuel injection systems had to be "closed loop" systems and that made even - especially CNG and Propane "fumigating" and early fuel injection - like the air induction controlled systems illegal and diesels got lumped in with that.

The only exception to closed loop with an oxygen sensor was where injection controlled by engine speed and perceived load based on mass airflow for a throttle-less engine hence the DS4 was born to control engine injection and timing using crank and cam in outs among other things.

Taking out the PCM so that it has no control would be defeating it and clearly unlawful.

The EPA and CARB have relaxed that memo reg and the new rule now is tied to modifications that increase emissions beyond the vehicle's set limits and there is a "useful life" waiver and exclusion if the engine is beyond 250,000 miles or has been replaced with OEM system that is functionally identical" to the OEM system.

My vehicle emission is test exempt, but if I would in the 1999 5.7Supercharged tri-fuel engine I have it would loose its emission exempt status.

However if I put on an OEM equivalent system for an F type motor that is one does not defeat anything for mechanical IP version and emissions do not increase beyond limits it remains lawful.

That is why I am not going hack it up with aftermarket solutions.

The hardest thing to do is to get a smooth equivalent actual signal taking the CMP signal from the mechanical fuel pump location because a little math engineering design will be needed to make sure that the most important thing of the right timing pulses stay In sync or it will throw a code against the CKP signal.

 

[Will L.]

Yeah, i get wanting to stay within the law. Thats why the newest 6.5 truck I’ll own is 93, and newest hummer is 95.
I have no desire to get in a fight with any kind of gubmint agency. So factory db2 only for me. Fingers crossed it all goes smooth for ya.

I get swapping the part and adding tps is easy, I was just thinking it might help another person in the future. I get the feeling there will be more and more folks needing to follow suit.

Your take off 24v stuff will make somebody out there happy in a cucv or hmmwv.

 

[royunion]

Yeah, i get wanting to stay within the law

I am more afraid of the 6.5 cutting out than the government.

The GM service bulletin November 21, 2003 proved the 6.5 with A DS4 is a defective product or they would not have issued a new 11 year 120000 mile free IP replacement regardless of owner.. See https://www.dieselplace.com/forum/6...005-lly/12502-6-5-injector-pump-warranty.html

Since the OP @SplitSsss - is a newly created 6.5 inductee that is not familiar with the real 6.5 issues @WarWagon put it well a few posts back about a reality check because in addition to boost not the source of power many people believe that it is on today's crappy fuel, it is ridiculous to imagine a diesel engine does not inject as long as the engine is turning and fuel shut off solenoid is open

These DS4 IP"s are dangerous and when you loose steering and brakes the only solution that is safe is the mechanical IP

A defective Product is an imperfection in a product that has a manufacturing or design defect, or is faulty because of inadequate instructions or warnings. A product is in a defective condition if it is unreasonably dangerous to the user or to consumer who purchases the product and causes physical harm. A defective condition is a legal cause of damage if it directly or in the natural sequence contributes substantially to the injury

In such a case the law only expects and imposes the best efforts doctrine.

Best efforts" imposes a higher obligation than a "reasonable effort". "Best efforts" means taking, in good faith, all reasonable steps to achieve the objective, carrying the process to its logical conclusion and leaving no stone unturned

GM declared Bankruptcy June 1, 2009 so they cannot be sued based on any DS4 but that especially now allows owners to correct the problem with an especially OEM solution to do so on their own

The db2 is a bolt OEM solution

If I get CMP signal working without throwing up codes I can put in the mechanical IP without problems as nothing else in the DS4 is going to be a problem for me to get rid of. As a code

After all it is the FUEL and ambient air temp and oxygen content - as in feet above sea level and load the engine is under which affect emissions more than the minor amount timing adjustments the DS4 does, and as @willL says he showed the db2 does it better anyway.

It is not a closed loop system so it will be all good