SplitSsss
Member
9 blade. Screw on type. 130gph waterpump.
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Savana Camper project II
- Thread starter SplitSsss
- Start date
SplitSsss
Member
Plenty of good advice there.
You asked: what is the transmission control looking like.
Honestly I know nothing about this. What do I need to know?
I have an Onan gen that needs a new board but it’s super heavy. The Honda seems like a better way to go.
I do plan on doing all the othe suggestions. Thanks.
Jaryd
Extremely Deplorable
If your going the mechanical IP route then you’ll need a transmission controller. Leroy Diesel has one on his site.
SplitSsss
Member
Thought I would stay with the stock vacuum setup since I don’t no what’s best.
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
If you're going mechanical you'll need to go the turbomaster route. The vac system is controlled by the PCM. If you're going to do any towing you'll need to do some cooling mods. You're already well on your way with the spin on fan water pump. That's the balanced flow setup. You'll probably need to get a fan clutch. I personally like the electro viscous option as it is controlled by engine temp.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
The biggest reason most people dont drop the ds4 for the db2 is needing to control the 4l80e. Some people get a tcm from a 95 or older hummer, a 93 or older truck, or van but i cant remember what year.
I know the tcm and ecm are same basic units- no idea if a ecm can be converted.
Using a stand alone controller can give better shift control, and be much easier to find, but isn’t cheap.
Selling off the old components helps offset it some.
I know the tcm and ecm are same basic units- no idea if a ecm can be converted.
Using a stand alone controller can give better shift control, and be much easier to find, but isn’t cheap.
Selling off the old components helps offset it some.
JayTheCPA
Well-Known Member
Have to disagree with this as a blanket statement. If anything, a burn to the PCM might cause questions as tuners do not always put the correct VIN in the code. If anything, the dealership might turn away the vehicle if they suspect the tune is causing issues (after a diagnosis charge, of course).
While it is possible that a dealership may turn-away service for deviations to the vehicle, this tends to happen when there is a OE warranty in place (read: the shop gets less money from Corporate for the repair than by billing the owner). And even if there is a warranty in place and the dealership turns away work simply due to a legal modification from OE design, a complaint to the State's AG will bring things around. Or, just go to another dealership whom knows what they are doing.
At this point, if a dealer works on the truck, it is going to expect deviations from OE. Any good dealership service manager will welcome the work as the fee structure is book rate.
And chances are they will have one of two types of mechanics in the shop:
- Too young to know what they are looking at (not desirable).
- Older, whom either has one or knows enough to work with the truck without messing it up.
Best bets for repairs are to find out what shop the locals use as it is more likely to have current experience with the 6.5 and charge for time (not book).
For the dual LP, I had looked into this as well, and as Will mentions, it just adds complexity. If the LP is a flow-on-fail design, the IP will still get fuel if the LP fails and you will get home (as long as there is not a blockage).
For the SD tank thought, IIRC it will need to come from an Excursion. The SD's that I am familiar with use a frame-rail tank as the spare tire goes in back of the rear diff.
For the thermostat's, I did not have any troubles with dual 195's and ~15K combined. If anything, (as AK mentions) focusing on the cooling stack is a critical element. X-2 on considering using the electro viscous fan (EV) clutch rather than the thermo viscous OE.
SplitSsss
Member
You guys are so great offering me advise and I really appreciate it.
One thing though: I’m really new to diesel. Gonna need simpler explanations. X-2 ??? Cooling stack??? Electro viscous??? Sorry for my ignorance.
The tranny discussion is another area I’m ignorant in. I can fab stuff like the turbo boost stick but have no idea how to set it up.
I love the idea of more boost but not sure of the best way to go about this. Do I even need this??? Transmission shift patterns. Setup, parts?? No idea here.
I’m an airline pilot by trade and as such I understand systems work very well once explained.
I studied engineering for two years as well. I’ve been turning wrenches since I could hold them. I designed and built my own house which has its own water purification system using rain water. I mention this not to brag but to let you know my capabilities. I have my own workshop. Metal fab, wood working and automotive areas. 11000lb car lift. Lots of experience with lots of machines but I’m new to diesel and how to achieve the proformance mods for my needs.
So be gentle with me.
As for the first part of the post: This rig will never see a dealership. Never.
Remember it’s was a gas truck with a diesel transplant, rear diff swap, all wiring and dash swap. Fuel system swap. The Vin numbers are somewhat irrelevant.
The superduty tank would be from pre 2005 I think. Those tanks are 32x36x16 metal tanks.
Thanks again for all the interest and advise.
Mike
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
X2 means he agrees with the post being referenced. Cooling stack is the combination of radiator, condenser, tranny cooler, etc. As far as ev clutch goes all of the 6.5s had a thermal viscous clutch. They use a bimetallic coil spring in the front of them that senses hot air coming thru the radiator. The problem is that the 6.5 has a relatively narrow temp range and 210* is considered to be the high end. By the time the thermal clutch engages you can be well over that when working it hard. The electro viscous clutch uses a temp sensor in the head to electrically activate the clutch. I have been more than satisfied with it. The only other thing to consider would be coating the radiator with a thermal dispersant which is said to increase cooling efficiency by 30%
royunion
Member
Mike wrote . . . "This rig will never see a dealership. Never"
OK - add a GM MDI or Palmer Engineering OBDll laptop software setup with the GM diesel option enhanced PID function to your warchest
Mike wrote .. . "I’m really new to diesel" . . . . it is not "Diesel" that is the real problem - it is the 6.5 GM Diesel with the DS4 that is the beast of the issue
In his post at https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/threads/savanna-camper-project.47692/post-564536 @WarWagon said first and foremost "GM has done more to ruin the reputation of diesel power than all other OEM's combined. " and he is 100% correct with the last thing being done was the 6.5 debacle.
The 6.5 with the DS4 is a hybrid electronically controlled mechanical injection system beast. @Will L. has the same turbocharged engine but with the DB2 mechanical injection pump. @Will L. therefore by passes all the DS4 nonsense the DS4 IP does which is stock on the consumer version 6.5.
After 1996 pretty much only the military - like in Hummer h1's had the db2 ip with the exception of some things like step vans etc not made by GM they were only supply chassis to for third party manufacturing.
The day will come - when you - or someone needs to look into the PCM at the hidden extended PID's and you will need a scantool that can see them /only a few can on the 6.5 like the Modus, the Tech2. the GM MDI, Palmer Engineering and there are a few others.
So if the DS4 6.5 does something on the road and throws no code and stops you cold a scantool may look deeper to help diagnose - and even then you have to know the signs. For instance the optical sensor is three things in one - it is a timing wheel, a fuel temp sensor and it measures clarity of the fuel. He is an example which might not throw a code at all - fuel pressure is low to ip, and the fuel id foaming by the optical sensor wheel but you cannot see it, and the engine just shuts off. //it is supposed to throw a code but you need a scantool of some kind to even know which code. There are things like the Ultragauge which plug into the OBDll port and the Torque Android phone app which using a bluetooth adapter will read some things - but both usually need the engine running and cannot access stored codes all the time
I have seen other codes thrown which are not the problem. For instance a 370 and 251 code often thrown together usually puts the pcm in limp home mode if the engine is cranked before the the wait to start circuit is done. Often just turning it off and starting it again solves it - but you STILL need some kind of scantool to clear the code or the check engine light will stay on.
So it is nor new to Diesel - it is the quirks of the 6.5.
And there are somethings you can do which will make things actually worse.
So never say never - with a 6.5 because fewer and fewer mechanics are around who will touch them and even dealerships too.
You bought a Diesel where you will be forced to be your own mechanic more likely than not
So if you think you can escape to a mechanical DB2 version - have at it - and ask @Will L. what to do about the turbo covering the place the crank speed sensor mounts in to control the transmission.
The are a host of other things also in a complete DB2 conversion that to me made more sense to keep mine as stock as possible and get it running purr-fect - which it is
I remember the first time as a student pilot at an uncontrolled rural single runway airport I tried a cross-wind landing in a Cessna 172 crabbing into the wind on approach - and at the last minute the instructor grabbed the controls powered on and went around and then pointed out I had missed reading all three of the wind socks all pointing when I looked again in three different directions. The instructor said don't worry - almost everyone I bring here for a touch and go misses it until you are just ready to touch down too slow a low crosswind will blow you right off the runway to a simple crash. If you are lucky it wont roll the plane
The 6.5 is kinda like that
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royunion
Member
Another thing to remember is the tranny and engine oil is dumped to the radiator in addition to in your case the condenser is in front. If you do not have auxiliary oil and tranny coolers off to the side - all heat can help to overheat a Diesel on a climb of a hill
Mine has factory dual auxiliary coolers - both tranny and oil
You may not think so but a new radiator - only about 120 bucks is worth it = because often radiator additives get added by someone previously and decrease the cooling capacity of the radiator. Also dexcool has been known to gel and mix with hard water to create calcium - dexcool clogging restrictions too
For instance a slightly slipping tranny you don't know is slipping is dumping extra heat into the radiator too
Mine can pretty much stay at 180 - and under 195 even under load
As someone else here said when these things overheat they do so fast
ak diesel driver
6.5 driver
If it was really as bad as all that then pretty much everyone would have switched to db2. Also while it might be possible I start mine all the time without wait for the wait to start sequence to finish and have never set those codes and have never seen or heard of it before. Again real world experience
JayTheCPA
Well-Known Member
Ah, if you happened to fly jets (or turbo prop), then the basic engineering compared to a diesel is the same: black magic
And, don't swear off dealerships. I used one in SC that truly was awesome.
Toward the SD tank. I am presuming that we are talking about Ford's as that is what I know as SD. And IIRC, that designation started around 1999 when the direct injection (DI) motor was put in the engine bay. So, back to the comment about SD tanks, am rather confident that it will have to come from an Excursion as the pickup's had it along the frame-rail. Stake bodies might have had it behind the rear, but am not 100% confident on that.
But, why not look at a Suburban tank? They are still available and hold 42 gallons.
And toward the EV fan clutch, the only thing to clarify from AK's description is that the EV fan actuates based on coolant temperature. Doing it this way is *much* better for keeping the temperatures under control. Bonus is that you can manually engage the fan prior to climbing a grade.
What are you using for a converter and batteries? For genset running battery charging you want a high amp 3-stage converter and AGM batteries with a short heavy guage wire run from the converter to the batteries. With AGM Lifelines I see nearly the 60A intelipower converter rating into the batteries when discharged. (Bulk Charge stage.) That is a 1KW genset load just to charge batteries. They make and AGM's can take larger amp ratings.
Hondas are expensive, lightweight, and tend to walk off if they don't have a chain on them. I am not going to mess with anyone walking off with the heavy Onan, esp. the 6500W "where is the engine lift?" one I have. I can buy a lot of gas for the cost difference of a Honda vs. used Onan. (Onan the twin cylinder 1800 RPM gensets that take 3 quarts of oil with an oil filter. Screw the 3600 RPM single banger screamer stuff.)
Look on CL for another Onan genset that is running and makes power NOW. The 1800 RPM RV ones are inexpensive (~$500) in 4KW gasoline. Perhaps over on smokstak fourms for parts. https://www.smokstak.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1
Flight Systems also has improved Onan parts. https://www.flightsystems.com/
Always clean the gen slip rings before starting the Onan if it's sat awhile or high resistance can pop the regulator. Run it once a month to prevent this.
If I throw two rocks around here the first rock will hit an HVAC (Air Conditioning home or auto) shop. The second rock has 50/50 odds of hitting another HVAC shop or one of the three: RV, Offroad, Diesel Performance Shop. If you know what you have sometimes you need to rent experience with special tools. It's not hard to find a diesel performance shop that can bill you by the hour to repair your custom rig.
There are plenty of off road monsters out here that use junk or unlimited deep pockets... Nevermind the same for aftermarket diesel. I know two local shops that works on anything and have the antique timing tools for a DB2 6.2/6.5 engine. Three if you count the local authorized Stanadyne dealer shop that always has a 6.5 or Ford IDI in the bay.
No need to bother a dealer when many other shops are way more flexible in working on custom stuff.
Will L.
Well-Known Member
I am afraid we need to pump the brakes a second. Tons of talk of things to do- but everyone go back and look at his budget. Things like a new radiator, my preferred dimple cored and coated especially- will proce him out of getting it on the road. A couple grand goes quick.
@SplitSsss tape a list of parts and their prices to the fridge before buying anything.
I was going on the assumption you want or have a db2 in place of the ds4. If you have a ds4, pmd, ecm etc and they all are good, keeping it will keep your costs down. Personally I HATE the ds4 and a tech2 or similar scanners WILL be needed.
With a db2- no computer to read anything on the engine. only the trans needs looking at and that is so few and far between that I just let a transmission shop do it even though I have rebuilt a couple 4l80e in The past- i HATE trans work also, but this trans is the most popular repurposed one in the world- custom to Jaguar to Rolls Royce. So don’t worry about someone being able to fix the trans issues when they come up. A couple grand buys a new one and that is good for the next quarter of a million miles.
If db2 conversion
For the 2 wire signal for engine speed for a tcm (transmission control module) or the tachometer: buy the hmmwv crank position sensor (2 wire) instead of the original 3 wire. EZ. Wish I knew that in the beginning- haha.
HOWEVER, research about stand alone trans controllers first because I heard of 1 or 2 that dont even need the engine speed sensor- it just reads off the tiss (transmission input speed sensor). the factory dash in pickups gets it’s tach signal from the alternator which is why it is crucial to verify your new alternator pulley size and if identical many wont give the old one with core to keep as a spare incase they goof the next time.
Cruise control is much easier with ds4, unless you like choke cable syle cables- Hmmwv parts vendors have one that says THROTTLE- haha. Cruise control= better mpg on the hiway.
If db2, don’t worry about setting the turbo stick/turbo master or whatever name they are now. SO easy. You just need a boost gauge.
Doing everything while it is out so you don’t have to go back later and fix stuff is great. But won’t happen on this budget. Imo pick your better radiator and run it. For the love of all that is good - NO DEX COOL! I like good old green prestone. Replace it every 100,000 miles and add the NON DIESEL water wetter. ( the diesel type is for wet sleeve diesels that need high nitrates and high nitrates screw this engine).
Use the fan and fanclutch you have now. If you have an issue with the heat, address it then. Otherwise new dimple core & coated radiator with either AK’s electroviscous or Kennedy’s fanclutch with the dmax fan- maybe- WHAT IS THE PART NUMBER ON YOUR 9 BLADE METAL? It is stamped on the blade face, 7 digits long usually.
Spend money on nightmare to work on fixes once installed like injectors, plugs, waterpump, timing chain/gears.
Although I recommend the WW2 if keeping factroy turbo- it is like $130ish. So low cost with ok benefit. But I wouldn’t spend $500 rebuilding and the WW2. That is too close to the cost of a bigger and better turbo imo. But I can weld and make my own exhaust to the custom turbo. If someone had to buy a new turbo- no way would I recommend the factory one. Better to pay an exhaust shop to build it for you at that point imo. Because better drivability and mpg offsets the cost over time. Your rv will be heavy and worse aerodynamics than my hummer, so it can be like a pickup towing a heavy trailer. So yeah on WW2, but no if turbo if turbo shaft has play. DO YOU KNOW HOW TO ‘FEEL’ THE TURBO?
Do you already have:
the fuel tanks?
Any lift pump?
@SplitSsss tape a list of parts and their prices to the fridge before buying anything.
I was going on the assumption you want or have a db2 in place of the ds4. If you have a ds4, pmd, ecm etc and they all are good, keeping it will keep your costs down. Personally I HATE the ds4 and a tech2 or similar scanners WILL be needed.
With a db2- no computer to read anything on the engine. only the trans needs looking at and that is so few and far between that I just let a transmission shop do it even though I have rebuilt a couple 4l80e in The past- i HATE trans work also, but this trans is the most popular repurposed one in the world- custom to Jaguar to Rolls Royce. So don’t worry about someone being able to fix the trans issues when they come up. A couple grand buys a new one and that is good for the next quarter of a million miles.
If db2 conversion
For the 2 wire signal for engine speed for a tcm (transmission control module) or the tachometer: buy the hmmwv crank position sensor (2 wire) instead of the original 3 wire. EZ. Wish I knew that in the beginning- haha.
HOWEVER, research about stand alone trans controllers first because I heard of 1 or 2 that dont even need the engine speed sensor- it just reads off the tiss (transmission input speed sensor). the factory dash in pickups gets it’s tach signal from the alternator which is why it is crucial to verify your new alternator pulley size and if identical many wont give the old one with core to keep as a spare incase they goof the next time.
Cruise control is much easier with ds4, unless you like choke cable syle cables- Hmmwv parts vendors have one that says THROTTLE- haha. Cruise control= better mpg on the hiway.
If db2, don’t worry about setting the turbo stick/turbo master or whatever name they are now. SO easy. You just need a boost gauge.
Doing everything while it is out so you don’t have to go back later and fix stuff is great. But won’t happen on this budget. Imo pick your better radiator and run it. For the love of all that is good - NO DEX COOL! I like good old green prestone. Replace it every 100,000 miles and add the NON DIESEL water wetter. ( the diesel type is for wet sleeve diesels that need high nitrates and high nitrates screw this engine).
Use the fan and fanclutch you have now. If you have an issue with the heat, address it then. Otherwise new dimple core & coated radiator with either AK’s electroviscous or Kennedy’s fanclutch with the dmax fan- maybe- WHAT IS THE PART NUMBER ON YOUR 9 BLADE METAL? It is stamped on the blade face, 7 digits long usually.
Spend money on nightmare to work on fixes once installed like injectors, plugs, waterpump, timing chain/gears.
Although I recommend the WW2 if keeping factroy turbo- it is like $130ish. So low cost with ok benefit. But I wouldn’t spend $500 rebuilding and the WW2. That is too close to the cost of a bigger and better turbo imo. But I can weld and make my own exhaust to the custom turbo. If someone had to buy a new turbo- no way would I recommend the factory one. Better to pay an exhaust shop to build it for you at that point imo. Because better drivability and mpg offsets the cost over time. Your rv will be heavy and worse aerodynamics than my hummer, so it can be like a pickup towing a heavy trailer. So yeah on WW2, but no if turbo if turbo shaft has play. DO YOU KNOW HOW TO ‘FEEL’ THE TURBO?
Do you already have:
the fuel tanks?
Any lift pump?
Jaryd
Extremely Deplorable
Ah, if you happened to fly jets (or turbo prop), then the basic engineering compared to a diesel is the same: black magic
And, don't swear off dealerships. I used one in SC that truly was awesome.
Toward the SD tank. I am presuming that we are talking about Ford's as that is what I know as SD. And IIRC, that designation started around 1999 when the direct injection (DI) motor was put in the engine bay. So, back to the comment about SD tanks, am rather confident that it will have to come from an Excursion as the pickup's had it along the frame-rail. Stake bodies might have had it behind the rear, but am not 100% confident on that.
But, why not look at a Suburban tank? They are still available and hold 42 gallons.
And toward the EV fan clutch, the only thing to clarify from AK's description is that the EV fan actuates based on coolant temperature. Doing it this way is *much* better for keeping the temperatures under control. Bonus is that you can manually engage the fan prior to climbing a grade.
Do you remember the name of the dealership and what town you were in?
JayTheCPA
Well-Known Member
About 4 hours away from you in Blufton. Hilton Head Automotive.
In my case, the Burb had the cracked 'T' heater hose. They even drove to Home Depot to try and find something without charge to me. Fix came when one of their mechanics (reportedly) pulled the one out of his truck so that I could get home.
Also, they found that one of the trans lines had developed a leak (and I had not noticed it yet). Called to ask permission to repair.
Burb was with them for a few days and I got a call at least once a day from the service manager with an update and plan for next steps.
A friend had used them in the past with similar experiences.
And toward all of the advice and budget constraints on this project, completely agree with making a list (including current price) and pinning it on a board.
I used a spreadsheet which helped me plan phases of upgrades and group them to minimize labor. When the Burb was in the shop for some unexpected 'love' sessions, I went to the spreadsheet to see what else I could do while the shop was already in that part of the Burb.
SplitSsss
Member
Who sells t
I am now THAT much smarter!!!
Thanks.
Never been a fan of dealerships or brand new automobiles or anything that I can do myself or learn to do myself. That’s why I built my own house. Typically I buy used and fix, modify or restore items. Saves money and I find it satisfying to “make it my own”.
As for a scan tool, I have one. Reads basic codes. Not sure if this is good enough for this project but if not I’ll source someone who has one.
So to get back to the project:
No plans to change out the IP.
I’d like to put the WW2 in and do the turbo rebuild kit. I would also like more boost pressure if possible. I also like the idea of a tuner specifically for cross country driving and towing.
As for the other mods discussed:
Planning on the following:
Leroy’s Timing gears, billet pulley, motor mounts and Carter LP.
Pre filter. AC Delco balancer. PMD relocation. 4” pipes. New waterpump.
If I do the WW2 then better up pipes. Seriously considering the radiator coating at some point later on. I like the Fan Clutch suggestions. Can someone provide a link to buy one please. And for the up pipes too. I need suggestions for gauges plz.
That’s what I’ve got planned so far for drive train.
JayTheCPA
Well-Known Member
Nope. It will not see pending codes. Probably not see real-time data from the ECM either.
Presuming you are keeping the DS4, getting one that can individually disable injectors is useful for diagnosis.
Why? Or, put another way, more boost as compared to what?
More boost means more heat. You already know what heat does to density altitude. Also, more heat means more energy that the cooling stack needs to expel. Getting to an optimal point is certainly desirable and not much different than a piston motor by setting the fuel mixture to peak RPM's (or just lean of peak EGT). If the goal is to get to the point of best effectiveness / economy / power (as opposed to maximum boost), that is a good place to work from.
With the short-list of items, might consider wrapping the up pipes as wrap is fairly low cost and your labor is free