IP Replacement Question

[daustin]

Hi ya'll,

I mainly just lurk on most of the forums, but i have a question for the experts on IP's. Currently running a '93 Chevy 3500 with the 6.5, IP is now a well worn 4911 IP. Has the typical hot start issue, and in general seems to be fairly gutless when it warms up. I have a second IP i pulled off a GEP engine, it's a DB28315209. Nearly new with only a few miles on it, i intend to pop that on my truck, turn it up maybe 1/3 turn as it was a N/A engine pump. Anyone see any issues with doing this? (oh i have to move the IP cover/solenoids as the 5209 is 24V)

thanks
Don

 

[Will L.]

Rock solid. Sell or rebuild the core.
Sell or give away the 24v stuff on G503.com
Everybody likes good used parts...

Pour in a little atf in the inlet if it's been sitting a while to start off with good lube.

 

[daustin]

Thanks Will!!

I hadn't thought of the atf for a little pre-lube, great idea! I've had it for several years, i "lost" it but recently ran upon it while looking for something else in my storage loft.

Don

 

[ak diesel driver]

Just like Christmas.

 

[daustin]

LOL Oh yea, finding something you've misplaced before you go buy another is great! My hobby is restoring/modernizing 50's and 60's cars/trucks so i have an assortment of parts stashed in my shop loft. Stuff for Camaro's, GTO's, Monte Carlo's, 57 Chevy's...etc

Don

 

[WarWagon]

It's better to use 2 stroke or other diesel fuel lube/cleaner on the pump. ATF is an unknown with IP seals and not designed to be burned leaving weird residue.

 

[Will L.]

Gotta disagree hard with you on this one. atf is an ld poly carbon synthetic 10 wt oil. that's 95% of it, the next 3-4% (which brand) is detergent. Unless its the full synthetic, then only 2% detergent.

The red dye that gives it its color (clear like oil without the dye) is the same exact dye used for red diesel for road tax, by law. In the 70's fuel crunch many big rigs switched to straight atf, causing the tax law mandating what dye is used in diesel and atf. Any "preimuem pump & injector flush" in big rig shops is just filling the new fuel filters with atf.

In the fleets we filled every diesel, regardless of size with atf on fuel filter change. Never had a ip leak.

Weird residue? Maybe if you had some dead bug fuel first, then the detergent washed it out?

 

[WarWagon]

Well, we are dealing with 1970's designed injection systems in context. 2 Stroke that is recommended is the "ashless" type. So is the Detergent in the ATF "Ashless"? It's assumed that ATF has a lot of detergent vs. engine oil. And most important to context does this matter only to the newer HPCR injection systems? After all I have 6 pistons sitting on a shelf that are carboned up pretty badly from burning just engine oil.

ATF is designed to resist burning aka thermal breakdown. Maybe the the 1% of the rest of the additives would be:

Friction modifiers
Dispersants and surfactants added to protect and clean surfaces
Anti-foaming additives
Anti-oxidation compounds
Rust and corrosion inhibitors
Anti-wear additives
Seal conditioners

Just saying that's a lot of stuff in it and seal conditioners are my concern valid or not.

 

[WarWagon]

To the OP:
Make sure when you switch IP covers that you test the IP with 12v from the battery and get a click on both terminals. No click means you locked the rack in the WOT position for engine run away that will NOT shut off by removing 12v. Trick is to slide the cover on some to close the metering valve - with the cover off the metering valve is in the WOT, full fuel, position.

First start it is wise to have a board and plan to shut the air off if the engine runs away.

2 clicks, yes the other click and terminal is for cold advance. But everyone mixes them up so just make sure you have 2 clicks to avoid that mix up. I know the pink wire is the 12v injection pump and green is cold advance.

 

[daustin]

To the OP:
Make sure when you switch IP covers that you test the IP with 12v from the battery and get a click on both terminals. No click means you locked the rack in the WOT position for engine run away that will NOT shut off by removing 12v. Trick is to slide the cover on some to close the metering valve - with the cover off the metering valve is in the WOT, full fuel, position.

First start it is wise to have a board and plan to shut the air off if the engine runs away.

2 clicks, yes the other click and terminal is for cold advance. But everyone mixes them up so just make sure you have 2 clicks to avoid that mix up. I know the pink wire is the 12v injection pump and green is cold advance.

It's been so long since I've done any work on my 6.5 that i forgot about testing the "clicks" on the IP, THANKS! On the ATF, with my worn out 4911 currently the only way it will start is if i dump a quart of ATF and a quart of 30w oil in the fuel when i fuel up. I'll pre-lube it with something, either ATF or possibly some of the stanadyne additive. It's been sitting for a while, i'll soak it for a few days prior to install.

Thanks guys!
Don

 

[Will L.]

Daustin, Good plan. PreLube with either one by putting a Teaspoon worth directly down the inlet port.

WarWagon, not trying to start an argument, but I don't want people to panic away from atf in the fuel system as a lube and cleaner. I get your concerns, but I have learned the opposite.

Ashless has 2 reasons. 1. Emissions 2. When ash is combined with high carbon and sulfur it forms coke when burned in the cylinder. The quantity of ash from atf is so low in these percentages it almost couldn't be measured. Keep in mind the only thing better than burning atf at cleaning Coke and carbon from the chamber is wmi. The carbon on your Pistons would have been less if you ran atf through the fuel system - that is the reason big rigs do it, along with cleaning the ip and injectors.

Flashpoint of diesel 126(f), atf 200-250. Yes a bit higher. Kerosene varies from. 100-165. So no real concearn in an engine. Diesels run on fuel from 90-290. It's really simple math 50% product flashpoint at 100 combined with 50% product at 200 equals me product at 150 flashpoint. So if he filled the ip with pure atf, and it washed through and couldn't ignite (it will but for example) when the diesel fuel behind it does ignite the 1 or 2 cups of Atf that gets pushed back to the tank will mix in with diesel and wash out to a barely readable level.

I can't see any negative from any of the additives you mention, in fact I see they would help the ip.

Like you mentioned the 1970's design was used. No ulsd containing Methonal up up to 10% by volume. That crap destroys seals, and counteracts lubricity at an alarming rate. Just as bad is the keytones used as a cosolvent so the two dissimilar liquids will stay in suspension with each other.

No one is allowed to sell atf as a fuel system cleaner to you. It works amazingly well, safely. It does not meet emissions standards, so it can not be sold AS AN ADDITIVE. However, as part of a mechanical treatment in maintenance or repair it can be used legally. Just like the Gm upper cylinder treatment used in gas engines. They have to print on the bottle not to add it to the fuel tank. It has to be administered to the vehicle through a vacuum hose while in a controlled environment not on public hiway.

It's a tree huggin action plain and simple. The plastic to oil/fuel company I've been working with the last few years is giving up the fight to sell a cut of the product as additive because of the legal loopholes additive companies have to jump through. The epa actually uses atf as a treatment as the benchmark example. They state the concearn of class 7&8 trucks using up to 80% atf as fuel like they did in the gas crunch and contributing to smog/acid rain from the sulfur content.

I want people to use a CDR instead of venting becuse it adds to smog. I don't want people to use atf or wmo as a fuel source bcause of smog. But IDI diesels using it as an additive or in this case a cleaner for getting rid of the aluminum oxide he will have inside the ip,and a prelube, it's long term will be positive for his parts and the environment.

 

[WarWagon]

And now you know what Will knows.

Always interesting to get your perspective on things.

Another reason to use a CDR is CJ4+ engine oil plain stinks when vented under the hood...

 

[daustin]

Thanks Will,

Since i've been using ATF as a fuel additive for a couple years for my ailing 4911 i know it won't hurt anything. Maybe the environment but there isn't a smog check on the old 1993 so i really don't care about that. Missy Good Wench gave me the ATF advice years ago, and 2 cycle oil to help the ailing pump. Mine is an "F" engine, and the exhaust is straight piped so no soot trap..etc.

thanks
Don AUstin

 

[dieselolds]

Thanks Will,

Since i've been using ATF as a fuel additive for a couple years for my ailing 4911 i know it won't hurt anything. Maybe the environment but there isn't a smog check on the old 1993 so i really don't care about that. Missy Good Wench gave me the ATF advice years ago, and 2 cycle oil to help the ailing pump. Mine is an "F" engine, and the exhaust is straight piped so no soot trap..etc.

thanks
Don AUstin

The 5209 is a good pump.Had one on my 6.5 TD and it performed well.I should have turned up the fuel rate a little but I left things alone.