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GM8 vs Various Turbos

DennisG01

Member
Messages
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7
Location
Allentown, PA
So, for a while now I've been tracking some numbers with various turbos. Although there's a couple other "tests" I've done, the main one I've been concerned with is a hill "climb", so to say.

Let me start by describing my method. I've tried to keep things as much "apples to apples" and unbiased (ie, no "seat of the pants" comments) as possible. The weight behind the truck is always my boat - a 28' cruiser that weighs just a few pounds under 10K - for all practical purposes it weighs 10,000lbs. While we two this boat everywhere from the Chesapeake Bay in MD to the coast of Maine, we also take it to local lakes, here in PA. On the way to one of the lakes is a nice highway that happens to have a good hill, approximately 1.1 miles long (from the place where I pull over to a pole at the top of the hill). I start in the same place (from a standstill) every time and go flat out the whole way up. Hopefully the numbers, below, are easy to read on your monitor (they are on mine, but I know sometimes things get screwed up from one internet browser/monitor to the next). Click on the table to view full-size.

If you take notice, the 2nd and 3rd lines are with an ATT turbo - but I was one of the ones that received the wrong sized housing - hence the high EGT's. As seen in other threads, Dennis (Slim Shady) is on top of this and I will re-do the test once I get the correct housing. Although, as my boat is now shrink wrapped I won't do the test again until the spring since I don't think it would be a fair comparison between a boat with a cockpit cover on and one wrapped in a big, plastic bubble. Hmmmm... maybe I should have waited till the spring to post this thread?

The "Mitsubishi" turbo is courtesy of Turbine Doc - thanks Tim!!! Generally speaking, though, you can see the numbers are relatively similar (except, of course for the EGT's with the wrong sized ATT). I'm excited to try out the new (correct) ATT and hoping that will provide some noticeable improvement over what I've seen so far. One thing to keep in mind is that I have an 18:1 engine, so my results may be different than those of you with 21:1's.

As a side note, I also want to say that Dennis (Slim Shady) has been absolutely fantastic to deal with. He never once led me to believe that I would be "stuck" with that wrong-sized ATT. I know he received some flak (unjustified, in my opinion) a while back, but I have talked/emailed/texted with him more times than I can remember (including before, during and after all that trash talk took place). Many times, it was he who initiated a new conversation to find out how things were going. No question about it - he's a stand-up guy.


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*IAT: No IAT's for the first two lines as they were performed before I had a means of measuring it. I now use the ScanGauge II.
 
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X2 on long talks with Slim over the ATT and other 6.5 issues I hunted down on the burb.

What is the grade % of this hill you have? This is the ultimate east vs. west coast difference as 10,000 LBS isn't going to reach 65MPH in 1.1 miles and usually tops out at 62 with 4.10's out back and the GMx in AZ. At 65 you really shouldn't ask for more as you are at the speed rating of most trailer tires.

Although you are doing apples to apples you should also add a tune specific to the ATT that would coal smoke a GMx. IMO you can turn up the fuel some more. You can get 17 or more PSI out of the turbo easy and more dramatic results. EGT's are not the ultimate thing to be concerned about. I don't worry until I go over and stay over 1400 for awhile. And then I am only worried about glow plugs and header wrap burning off...

The numbers you posted for EGT's are not even warming it up :D
 
True - about the trailer tires. Although, I usually travel at a consistent 70 mph (when possible) and always make it a point to feel the tires/hubs whenever I pull over. So far, so good. However, for 1-minute time period, even going 90MPH isn't going to cause any damage as they won't heat up that fast.

Unfortunately, this is only a 3% grade. There are better (steeper/longer) hills - but they are a little further away. This hill is close enough to me that I can do the run even if I wasn't going boating. It's about a 50-mile round trip, or about 5 gallons of fuel. The other hills would easily be twice that.


edit: oops - forgot to add:

I can get a light haze of smoke under full power, right now. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (I am by no means an expert in this field), but doesn't that tell me that the engine is using all the fuel it can (since it's starting to smoke)? Wouldn't adding more fuel (enough to get heavy, dark smoke) just waste fuel? I mean, that's OK for tractor pull competitions as it's such a short event that (I assume) they don't have to worry about heat. I don't know that I'd feel comfortable seeing that needle start climbing over 1200* on a regular basis! :)
 
That is a respectable hill to start a 10K trailer on.

It is a bit of a black art to get the tune just right. However, on the DB2 mechanical unit I get 18PSI out of the ATT smoke free and have room for more fuel. There is a point that the haze can change with timing etc. Advancing the timing (a lot) gave me more power but smoked black on the same fuel. (I would not have wanted to start it cold that advanced as it rattles enough now.) Advance can lower boost numbers as less heat is thrown out the exhaust to drive the turbo. The EGT's on the 93 are also lower than the 1995 due to different precups. The ATT lowered the EGT's on my 1993 about 200 degrees vs. the GM3. (Kinda put it into the 'sane' zone. I suppose a GM8 would have lowered my EGT's a little.) Regardless IMO there is a lot of room in the haze zone before it becomes black smoke. I don't disagree with not wanting more smoke than that in general.

For fun you could try different timing offsets and see the results in the boost, haze, and power.

Altitude is 1000' -2000' for me and higher when I go out of town to 8000'. You are at ~450' and this may make a difference.

My observation with EGT's is that is isn't the only number that matters, but, in combo with other things. I have yet to hurt the uncoated 6.2 pistons that I run or the 6.5 pistons. I have seen a 6.5 coated piston melt around the coating from a bad injector firing too soon aka too much advance. EGT's never indicated a problem per the PO I got that mess from...
 
Dennis,

Glad to have been of assistance, I've been a bit tied up with work & holidays hence me not getting back to you with shift point data with the latest Heath tune I'm running when we last talked.

Anyway somthing that you can clear up for me; did I hear correctly in one of our conversations you are running these tests in 3rd gear or in OD ?

Also do you have a safe way to grab the rpm the engine is running @ when making these observations?

One thing I like about the MT2500 "brick" though some folks don't like them; is the data "freeze" button so you can snapshot data with one button push, slighly off due to the refresh rate of older instrument but "good enough" for type of testing we can hope to achieve on the highway.
 
Hi Tim. Yes, I am doing everything in 3rd gear. I've been doing it this way for years - I think, IIRC, this was originally a recommendation that Bill Heath gave to me. Since I'm flat out all the way, it may be a moot point, since it wouldn't upshift into 4th anyways.

I haven't grabbed the RPM (hard enough to get everything else written down). But, I can grab the RPM when I drive home (without towing). Although, using a simple online rpm/speed calculator, it tells me I should be around 2700/2800 at 66mph, which does seem to sound right (from what I can remember).
 
...Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (I am by no means an expert in this field), but doesn't that tell me that the engine is using all the fuel it can (since it's starting to smoke)? Wouldn't adding more fuel (enough to get heavy, dark smoke) just waste fuel?

well, yes and no.

More fuel at the same mass of air potentially means more smoke and more egt.

But more fuel can also mean more drive pressure at the turbine which can mean more mass through the compressor.

Notice I said can.

It's a balancing act of fuel, boost and timing.

Dumping in more fuel alone won't work as you would expect. You may have to add more timing in order to allow enough burn time to extract the power from the extra fuel. Chuck boost in and things can get weirder again. You may actually have to pull some timing out as a result of the added mass in the cylinder allowing a faster burn. Everything from combustion chamber shape to intake exhaust design defines what you have to do. To further complicate this, it can change from engine to engine depending om production tolerances and modifications.

Get it right and things are great. get it wrong and....

I find your chart in the first post interesting.

It seems like there's no real appreciable difference in the numbers. 1 Mph is insignificant. The GM8 is a little cooler but it's running a bit more psi through the engine.

Seems like it's a wash either way.....
 
Thanks for the info - that was good stuff to read.

As for the chart - yes, I agree - no real difference. The middle two can really be thrown out, anyways, since they are done with the wrong sized housing (a size that was not intended by Slim Shady to be used). And, just to reiterate, I've got an 18:1 where most guys with an ATT are using it on a 21:1 so their results may be different. The main thing I wanted to do was try my best to objectively quantify my results and not just rely on my posterior to do the decision making - that sometimes gets me in trouble... :rolleyes5:

Dennis has sent me the new turbine housing - it's waiting at the post office for me to pick up. :) Another test will be forthcoming!
 
I put the new turbine housing on last night. Went on super easy. I'll play with it for a week and so, then get some 0-60's. Once I "unhibernate" my boat, I'll get some towing done.
 
Well, I FINALLY got the boat out of storage. It's been such a busy Spring/Summer that we haven't really had the time to do much boating and I've left it in storage until just recently. So, the other day I did another hill pull with the proper sized ATT turbine housing. Results were slightly better than the wrong-sized housing, but still extremely comparable to the GM8. So, for now, the GM8 is back on until I find something else.

Dennis (Slimshady) has been wonderful through this process and I can't fault him for anything. He is standing behind his product and working with me on a return. Although this turbo seems to work well for most engines, it just doesn't seem to work with an 18:1 automatic. My engine is running very well and I have even had it in to a local fuel injection shop (they know the 6.5 engines extremely well!) to see if they could find anything "wrong" or not up to par. Nothing - it is in perfect health. I guess it just comes down to the fact that a particular product is not going to work in every case.

The important thing, and something that I think is lacking in many businesses today, is that Dennis has been a gentleman through the whole process and is truly a stand-up guy. Any retailer can have good customer service with a product that the customer is happy with. It's when the product doesn't work as advertised that the real test of customer service happens. And that, my friends, is exactly what happened here. Many people are extremely happy with their ATT and that is great - both for the guys running the ATT on their truck and for Dennis. But, in my case, it's different. And as a testament to Dennis' customer service he stepped right up (answered my late-night email first thing the next morning). If anyone is reading this and is still wondering about his "character"... stop wondering. He's a good, honest guy. And in the end, I think that's all we can ask for from someone and what we should all (myself included) try to strive to be for ourselves.

Here is what the hill pull with the proper ATT yielded:

Ambient: 83*
Max Boost: 15.5 PSI
Max Speed: 67 MPH
Max EGT: 1150
Elapsed Time: 75 seconds

Everything was done exactly as I always do so the only variable is ambient temp and the turbo.
 
I also would like to hear his opinion on the matter.

Any thought on the hx40 or 40II turbos? Im thinking you would have great luck with your setup.
 
Did you measure your MPG at all?

Yes. I have an App for that!

It's tough to tell, exactly, as I often have at least a few tows mixed in over the course of a tank. The only time I'm not really towing is over the winter - but then the winter is a bad time to judge fuel economy with the lower BTU fuel and extended idles.

However, looking at the data, the best I can tell is that the ATT (wrong sized turbine) returned the worst MPG. The ATT (correct housing) and Mitsu eeked out the GM8 by about .25MPG. The wrong sized housing was lower than the GM8 by about .25MPG.
 
Any thought on the hx40 or 40II turbos? Im thinking you would have great luck with your setup.

Thoughts? Yes, I'd like to try one. But, unfortunately I don't have good access to one and the time that's involved in finding one and modding it to fit is just not in the cards, right now.
 
Thoughts? Yes, I'd like to try one. But, unfortunately I don't have good access to one and the time that's involved in finding one and modding it to fit is just not in the cards, right now.

They can be had on ebay fairly priced. And believe me, there isnt much time involved at all. You can have it bolted on and running same day!

Check out the ebay and other threads on the forum here. Many members are having great luck with these turbos including myslef!

By the way, your not the only one i have heard of having the same poor results with the att.
 
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