-
Welcome to The Truck Stop! We see you haven't REGISTERED yet.
Your truck knowledge is missing!
- Registration is FREE , all we need is your birthday and email. (We don't share ANY data with ANYONE)
- We have tons of knowledge here for your diesel truck!
- Post your own topics and reply to existing threads to help others out!
- NO ADS! The site is fully functional and ad free!
Problems registering? Click here to contact us!
Already registered, but need a PASSWORD RESET? CLICK HERE TO RESET YOUR PASSWORD!
Feed The Beast, Part I & Part II Improve fuel to IP
- Thread starter Acesneights1
- Start date
- Status
Acesneights1
New Member
Here is the rest of what I did in another thread. No sense in being repetitive.
http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/showthread.php?t=3559
Mods, maybe worth just somehow blending the two ?? So not to be more confusing ?
http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/showthread.php?t=3559
Mods, maybe worth just somehow blending the two ?? So not to be more confusing ?
Last edited by a moderator:
Turbine Doc
Just Another Diesel Guy
FTB some have asked what is it & does it work,
Yes all the way to 153 mph,
A short while ago this evening, I talked to "speed racer" himself aka Bill Heath, and he has been trying to contact me and let me know, new job I'm on and we hadn't been able to get in touch with each other.
Earlier this year I sent folks at Heath Diesel a FTB fitting set, I wanted another set of data next time thay ran the dyno to see what if any change resulted with FTB other than my seat of pant dyno. It never got dynoed, but Bill informed me it was on the truck in Bonneville this time, and it will be on there next year when he tries to better his 153 mph record
Yes all the way to 153 mph,
A short while ago this evening, I talked to "speed racer" himself aka Bill Heath, and he has been trying to contact me and let me know, new job I'm on and we hadn't been able to get in touch with each other.
Earlier this year I sent folks at Heath Diesel a FTB fitting set, I wanted another set of data next time thay ran the dyno to see what if any change resulted with FTB other than my seat of pant dyno. It never got dynoed, but Bill informed me it was on the truck in Bonneville this time, and it will be on there next year when he tries to better his 153 mph record
Last edited:
Matt Bachand
Depends on the 6.5
He was using the Heath HD lift pump also TD?
chrisk1500
New Member
- Messages
- 875
- Reaction score
- 0
He had a FASS pump IIRC....
Turbine Doc
Just Another Diesel Guy
Yes FASS air dog was Bill's truck, Heath h/o pump will satisfy needs of majority of the 6.5 crowd, once you begin to push the envelope as hard as you can, you need a little more.
Sunshine
Northern Lights
FTB
TIM... Let me know if i`ve missed out on something... coz when i did the FTB i was told by someone here in Norway that i had to bore out the vent in the IP to 4.2mm - 4.5mm with a good drill coz it`s hard, which i have done... i hope your are with me on this one
....
Tried to send some pic`s with this note but i`m still looking for that book... you know.... The Forum for Dummies...! :rolleyes5:
TIM... Let me know if i`ve missed out on something... coz when i did the FTB i was told by someone here in Norway that i had to bore out the vent in the IP to 4.2mm - 4.5mm with a good drill coz it`s hard, which i have done... i hope your are with me on this one
....Tried to send some pic`s with this note but i`m still looking for that book... you know.... The Forum for Dummies...! :rolleyes5:
Last edited:
Acesneights1
New Member
Vent in the IP ?
Sunshine
Northern Lights
FTB
Thanx Ace...it`s the different Lingo across the Pond.
Okay....Clean around & remove the inlet Valve in the Pump situated on the top of the IP where the diesel hose is fixed...Use 19mm (3/4") thin wall socket wrench... Unscrew the Valve, Now the complete Valve is off unscrew the hose fitting 14.2mm (9/16")...
Now we have to remove the thin & fragile mesh filter, grip the filter at the lower part, turn it around it`s fixed to an O-ring...
When the filter is free you will see 4 minor holes, the holes Have to be inccreased in size....
It`s important the holes are 4.2mm to 4.5mm, they are hard to bore so use good tools...
Clean the Valve good so there will not come any metal particles into the IP, mount the filter back on the Valve, put on some lub & it will fall into place smoothly...
Beware that nothing of the filter is outside the parameter underneath.
Now the O-ring shifts location from the previous fitting onto the new fitting,where the new size hose is going to be attached & the rest is History....
I hope this explains everything, but don`t ask me why this has to be done, i was just told it is very important....
Thanx Ace...it`s the different Lingo across the Pond.
Okay....Clean around & remove the inlet Valve in the Pump situated on the top of the IP where the diesel hose is fixed...Use 19mm (3/4") thin wall socket wrench... Unscrew the Valve, Now the complete Valve is off unscrew the hose fitting 14.2mm (9/16")...
Now we have to remove the thin & fragile mesh filter, grip the filter at the lower part, turn it around it`s fixed to an O-ring...
When the filter is free you will see 4 minor holes, the holes Have to be inccreased in size....
It`s important the holes are 4.2mm to 4.5mm, they are hard to bore so use good tools...
Clean the Valve good so there will not come any metal particles into the IP, mount the filter back on the Valve, put on some lub & it will fall into place smoothly...
Beware that nothing of the filter is outside the parameter underneath.
Now the O-ring shifts location from the previous fitting onto the new fitting,where the new size hose is going to be attached & the rest is History....
I hope this explains everything, but don`t ask me why this has to be done, i was just told it is very important....
Last edited:
Turbine Doc
Just Another Diesel Guy
you open the 4 holes under the screen to increase the flow, I used a cobalt drill bit just go slow IIRC it was 5/32" bit
Sunshine
Northern Lights
Thank`s... Tim as i`ve said before your worth your weight in Gold... & go with the flow... coz it really does... it makes my day...
Last edited:
packratt
Active Member
Here's a tip I found today to make it easier to bore out the fittings Aces used..
Chuck 19/64" bit in drill press. Place fitting on bit, #6JIC end over bit. Lower until fitting can be held in vise. Drill. This almost eliminates issues with centering bit and gets pit parallel to hole in fitting.
Chuck 19/64" bit in drill press. Place fitting on bit, #6JIC end over bit. Lower until fitting can be held in vise. Drill. This almost eliminates issues with centering bit and gets pit parallel to hole in fitting.
daustin
Member
In the latest Maxxtorque they had an article on Bill's bonneville runs, good stuff. Bill mentioned using Tim's FTB mod when they interviewed him in the article, the mod is a really well thought-out improvement and deserves a BIG thanks to Tim and all his help, information and time with these trucks. :thumbsup:
Don
Matt Bachand
Depends on the 6.5
Yep, Tim is sure up at the same plateau as Bill Heath, and John Kennedy...
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Thanks Tim for your hard work, sharing your concepts, and your dedication to helping others with 6.5's.
Thank you Tim.
schiker
Well-Known Member
In the beginning I wondered what the advantages of FTB mod were and thought some of it could be better fuel through put and thus cooling of the IP by more fuel. Which I think is a benefit but not where the power comes from. I read that the FTB mod helps more even output to each injector during upper fuel deliveries. Or the fuel balance.
A while back I took an IP apart and see its a simple yet complex mix of timed ports & some valves/springs etc. I have heard the term transfer pump internal to the pump but never saw such a mechanism. I have heard terms fill and spill chamber plungers, cam ring, rotor, and fuel solenoid. I recognized those parts but didn't quite understand the spill and fill chamber and exact flow path. I don't fully understand it nor can explain it but kind of understand it should work like this....???.....
Simplified not exactly but the lift pump helps lift fuel from the tank to the IP. And fills the IP body with fuel. The plungers sling outward due to centrifugal force drawing in the fuel from the "fill chamber". Or as GMC might say the pressure of the fuel actually pushes in due to the lower pressure created by the plungers moving out. Anyway it fills the plunger stroke chamber. With rotation relative to the camring the plungers are forced back inward to build pressure. If the fuel solenoid gets power to close this closes one of the exits possible to the spill chamber. When the fuel solenoid closes this path the fuel must due to increasing pressure travel out the injection lines and pop the injectors. Now the injectors squirt and with a stroking mechanism internal once it strokes it also pumps a little fuel out the return lines (at much lower pressure than injection pressure because there is no resistance to flow and this small pump out rate is low). As the rotor turns further it allows another passage and or the fuel solenoid lets off such that the plungers push to wards the spill chamber. At certain rotation the spill chamber can transfer back to the fill chamber with a check valve or can vent back to the tank. All of this happens really quick at a flowrate depandant on rpm.
But the key is there is no real transfer pump internal to the IP its really the centrifugal force slinging the plungers out that build the differential pressure from the fill chamber, to plunger chamber, and then to the spill chambers. And when ALL the fuel is injected to combust (at high fuel delivery rate) it reduces the positive transfer pressure inside the IP from spill to fill and recirculation to tank. Such that with better supplied lift pump volume to keep the spill and fill chambers completely full it helps the plungers "draw" or pump fuel and keep the fuel circulating optimumly internally to the pump.
And why the IP can draw fuel its a pump that must pump fuel with each revolution but its the timing and other mechanism that control the injection pulse, recirculation internal, or return to tank.
What do y'all think of that
A while back I took an IP apart and see its a simple yet complex mix of timed ports & some valves/springs etc. I have heard the term transfer pump internal to the pump but never saw such a mechanism. I have heard terms fill and spill chamber plungers, cam ring, rotor, and fuel solenoid. I recognized those parts but didn't quite understand the spill and fill chamber and exact flow path. I don't fully understand it nor can explain it but kind of understand it should work like this....???.....
Simplified not exactly but the lift pump helps lift fuel from the tank to the IP. And fills the IP body with fuel. The plungers sling outward due to centrifugal force drawing in the fuel from the "fill chamber". Or as GMC might say the pressure of the fuel actually pushes in due to the lower pressure created by the plungers moving out. Anyway it fills the plunger stroke chamber. With rotation relative to the camring the plungers are forced back inward to build pressure. If the fuel solenoid gets power to close this closes one of the exits possible to the spill chamber. When the fuel solenoid closes this path the fuel must due to increasing pressure travel out the injection lines and pop the injectors. Now the injectors squirt and with a stroking mechanism internal once it strokes it also pumps a little fuel out the return lines (at much lower pressure than injection pressure because there is no resistance to flow and this small pump out rate is low). As the rotor turns further it allows another passage and or the fuel solenoid lets off such that the plungers push to wards the spill chamber. At certain rotation the spill chamber can transfer back to the fill chamber with a check valve or can vent back to the tank. All of this happens really quick at a flowrate depandant on rpm.
But the key is there is no real transfer pump internal to the IP its really the centrifugal force slinging the plungers out that build the differential pressure from the fill chamber, to plunger chamber, and then to the spill chambers. And when ALL the fuel is injected to combust (at high fuel delivery rate) it reduces the positive transfer pressure inside the IP from spill to fill and recirculation to tank. Such that with better supplied lift pump volume to keep the spill and fill chambers completely full it helps the plungers "draw" or pump fuel and keep the fuel circulating optimumly internally to the pump.
And why the IP can draw fuel its a pump that must pump fuel with each revolution but its the timing and other mechanism that control the injection pulse, recirculation internal, or return to tank.
What do y'all think of that
schiker
Well-Known Member
Further more the IP is a positive displacement pump wethers it recirculating internal, injecting, or recirculating to the tank. But as the plungers are not connected via a connecting rod it won't pull anymore fuel through than what is in the fill chamber. But again that is kinda the point because it can't cavitate or pump air through. So there are some neat things going on with check valve and balanced valves etc that I can't fully explain or understand at this time.
That is why the pressure of the lift pump isn't as important the IP is a constant pump rate vs rpm and fuel is not compressable so the throughput if fixed. It can't pump more through. But I am not sure of the differential check valve pressure between the fill and spill chamber and return path work so yes I guess you can damage or overcome them and cause issues with really high lift pump pressure. But so far from what I have read no real damage between 1 - 15-20ish psi lift pump pressures.
That is why the pressure of the lift pump isn't as important the IP is a constant pump rate vs rpm and fuel is not compressable so the throughput if fixed. It can't pump more through. But I am not sure of the differential check valve pressure between the fill and spill chamber and return path work so yes I guess you can damage or overcome them and cause issues with really high lift pump pressure. But so far from what I have read no real damage between 1 - 15-20ish psi lift pump pressures.
Acesneights1
New Member
The CONEX Show is coming up next Month in Hartford. The guy from Metro Inj is there every year with a DS4 cutaway nicely to see all internals. This year I will remember the camera and get pics.
schiker
Well-Known Member
So that helped me think about it more and can see something like this. At first I thought the plungers might not stroke fully all the time if the fuel wasn't in the fill chamber and the vacuum was too great. But I guess it might pull fuel back out of the spill chamber too.
Anyway my points still apply if the lift pump isn't filling the IP body with fuel the plunger chamber won't get filled evenly at higher fuel burn rates because its too hard to pull fuel all the way from the tank. The IP will create a pressure differential from supply line to return line and pump fuel from the tank at low and moderate fuel rates and works ok until you create an air bubble in supply line like changing the filter. Then that causes all kinds of problems because the fill and spill chamber can't pump because this pumping action is really small in comparison to a lift pump and depends on a balance and checkvalve of some type. ?????
Anyway my points still apply if the lift pump isn't filling the IP body with fuel the plunger chamber won't get filled evenly at higher fuel burn rates because its too hard to pull fuel all the way from the tank. The IP will create a pressure differential from supply line to return line and pump fuel from the tank at low and moderate fuel rates and works ok until you create an air bubble in supply line like changing the filter. Then that causes all kinds of problems because the fill and spill chamber can't pump because this pumping action is really small in comparison to a lift pump and depends on a balance and checkvalve of some type. ?????
buddy
Active Member
When performaing FTB anyone remove the coil around the filter manager fuel heater rod? Seems like a restriction. Thanks...and I did drill out those 4 little holes under the screen of last IP fitting. It was tough, very hard steel. Need some more details in this thread or is there another one? When I have had time to drive it with this and the Walbro and prefilter I'll add some pics and stuff.
- Status