Feed The Beast, Part I & Part II Improve fuel to IP

[bison]

Howdy, All...

First, I cut the old barb off with a Dremel tool. Seemed to me easier than a hacksaw.I found a #4ORB to 3/8 barb in one piece; it's made by Brennan and available through industrial hose and pipe suppliers. I bought two; 2.63 each plus shipping. Here is the Brennan spec page:
http://www.brennaninc.com/ProductDisplay.asp?pg=productdisplay&item=4604-06-04-O
Thanks to all of you who blazed the trail; without you I wouldn't have known I needed a #4ORB!!

Drilled the filter housing out; the #4 thread (7/16-20) takes a 25/64 drill. NOTE: you DON'T need to drill the big hole all the way through to the fuel port in the center; you just need to drill it deep enough to tap the length of the threads on the fitting. Then you can drill the .250 fuel hole (discussed elsewhere) all the way to the fuel port in the center of the housing. As mentioned in other postings, measure the depth, then mark your drill with a ziptie...you DON'T want to drill into the center hub of the fuel housing. I used grease in the drill flutes to keep as many metal chips as possible from falling in the hole. I tapped the hole with a bottom tap, so it wouldn't project too far into the hole. The metal was so soft, it was easy to start the tap.

With a 1/2" drill, I created a countersink in the filter housing, to hold the O-ring. The metal of the filter housing is very soft; you don't need to press very hard or spin the drill very fast. You don't want to countersink too "deep;" you want the O-ring to have some "squish." If you try to squish it between two flat surfaces, it can be forced outwards and you will have no seal. You need that bevel to keep the seal in place. Viton O-rings, of course.

I also drilled out the new fittings a little, because the hole on the #4 end is smaller than .250. The hole in the barb is about 1/32" larger than .250, so that is the drill I used; the barb hole acted as a guide for the drill.

The rest is pretty straightforward; the new #4 fittings fit perfectly into the IP fitting.

--Clipper

There is actually no need to cut it off,Its just pressed in.i clamped the old barb in the vice and tapped the housing off it with punch and hammer.

 

[buddy]

you know the answer to that one,bigger river can flow more water.

so now the point you have been making about restrictions doesnt make any sense because the banjo fitting is only 3/16" so we should just use 1/4" line all the way back to the LP. There is also a difference between pressure and force, because force takes into acount area.

the same pressure with a larger area has greater potential and kinetic energy, a larger force, because P=F/A

 

[buddy]

nice work clipper. You must have been sitting for a long time or something to get that baked on like that. My 94 wasnt clogged at all. While youre at it why dont you remove that fuel heater coil inside the center shaft. It is quite the restriction and not necessary, most dont have it.

 

[Clipper]

nice work clipper. You must have been sitting for a long time or something to get that baked on like that. My 94 wasnt clogged at all.

Thanks, Buddy...you know, come to think of it, I've been using B99 biodiesel (Available at the pump here in SD) intermittently for the last 2 years or so. That's in addition to the VO, although the VO doesn't pass through the stock fuel filter. I wonder if that bio has anything to do with that screen clogging? Hmmmm....

 

[buddy]

Hmmm B99 in a 6.5 doesnt sound like a great idea and probably what caused your issue there.

I might use B20, but no more. The IPs werent biult to use bio and could harm them. As well as cause issues like your clog. If thats clogged, maybe you should also remove the IP fitting and check the screens on the outside of it and in the bottom.

 

[Matt Bachand]

Yea Buddy ,in theory you're right,but after the fuel passes trough the inlet and screen,the next step is trough a 3/16" orifice in a banjo bolt before entering the transfer pump.Now we're back to square one.

If i want to race,i'll buy a formula one:smile5:

You never know, FTB might be unnecessary with a real fuel pump that can supply close to 10psi to the IP at all times... Regardless, I like the thought of larger fuel lines, This way the available fuel is closer to the IP. giving it a larger amount of fuel for the brief time it takes some fuel pumps to increase supply due to demand.

 

[Clipper]

Hmmm B99 in a 6.5 doesnt sound like a great idea and probably what caused your issue there.

I might use B20, but no more. The IPs werent biult to use bio and could harm them. As well as cause issues like your clog. If thats clogged, maybe you should also remove the IP fitting and check the screens on the outside of it and in the bottom.

I've also been using Stanadyne Blue whenever I run straight diesel...wonder if there might be a reaction there....

Don't forget...I'm also using straight filtered VO...I checked the IP screen, and it was ok. Usually, if *anything* is going to react with metals, it's the VO.

I heat the VO to 160* minimum before I switch over, it usually runs at 180* or so. The VO fuel system is completely separate; the switchover solenoid valve is right before the IP inlet, and the return solenoid valve is right where the return line comes out of the engine.

Been running VO for three years now, and so far, it works well. I burn about 4 gallons of VO for every gallon of diesel/biodiesel.

Bio also adds lubricity; lost when they refine the sulfur out of the fuel. I've read that as little as 2% bio adds back all the lubricity of the original #2 diesel, before they started taking ANY sulfur out of it.

But I definitely know now to keep an eye on those two screens...adding them to my regular maintenance schedule....!

 

[83GMCK2500]

so now the point you have been making about restrictions doesnt make any sense because the banjo fitting is only 3/16" so we should just use 1/4" line all the way back to the LP. There is also a difference between pressure and force, because force takes into account area.

the same pressure with a larger area has greater potential and kinetic energy, a larger force, because P=F/A

I am going to jump in here into your and bison's conversation...

You cannot break fluid dynamics down as simply as you are and look at the whole picture. If the orifice of a 1/4" barb is 3/16" then yes, you will only flow what the 3/16" allows for at that point, the fluid will have to increase in velocity quite a bit to maintain the flow level that the fuel line provides. The reason you run a larger line to feed it is to minimize pressure losses. There is going to be a certain amount of pressure loss from the tank to the filter head (where I assume this FTB mod is occurring). Pressure losses come from changes in elevation, friction, and changes in kinetic energy. If you keep to the smaller line the pressure losses will be much greater than if you stepped it up a size or two. Here is one of the most basic equations for pressure loss:

Where:

= Pressure Drop

= Pipe Friction Coefficient
L = Length of Pipe
D = Pipe Diameter
p = Density

= Flow Velocity

That is to say, pressure drop/loss is a function of all of those other terms. If you look at your truck individually there are things that you won't be able to change significantly, such as the length of the fuel line, you also cannot change the density of the fluid. Look at where the term for the diameter resides, in the denominator of the equation. If you increase the diameter the pressure loss will drop. Also, if flow is constant, when you increase the diameter the velocity will drop which lowers pressure loss.

If someone has already covered this somewhere and I didn't see it, then I apologize. bison made a very generic statement about rivers that was true, but not the best analogy I thought and may have started to mislead buddy. Hopefully I was able to clear up why it is prudent to run a larger fuel line.

 

[buddy]

I was just being facetious/sarcastic. Bisons original theory was more analogous to a chain with the weakest link, but its not like that necessarily with flow/pressure.

 

[bison]

I have no misconseption about the FTB mod at all(i've just installed the damn thing),I think its a good mod,and i dont need any fancy formula's to figure out that when an outlet line is smaller than the inlet there is gonna be a loss of flow no matter the pressure.
The thing buddy and i disagree on was for me the point that my inlet elbow orifice at the IP was smaller in area than the combined area of the 4 holes in the inlet fitting.That was the reason for me to not enlarge these holes.If the elbow would have been larger(as buddy's seems to be) then i would have drilled them out.

Another tid bit of info is the fact that a fluid will pass faster trough a sharp edged hole than one that is burred by drilling as would happen when enlarging these 4 holes.A chamfered hole on the pressure side will have a negative flow effect as well.

I am no greenhorn in mechanics,I have worked on hydraulics and diesels and whatever rolls along on this planet all my life,but i dont claim to know it all.

Just my opinion.

 

[buddy]

And its not smaller now, right now its the same size if your elbow is actually 1/4" diameter. The 4 holes area equal same as a 1/4" hole.

 

[83GMCK2500]

Let me reiterate, I wasn't trying to point out any misconceptions that anyone had or anything negative about the FTB.

I was only trying to point out the merit (from another perspective) in using a large fuel line as well as the larger fitting that is part of the FTB mod. I think it's a great mod, and I don't think anyone is wrong about it. I just saw where buddy had questioned why use a larger fuel line, I did not initially pick up on his sarcasm in that post. I didn't see where anyone mentioned the severe pressure loss associated with smaller diameters, I tried to point it out.

Have a good weekend gentlemen, I was just trying to make an informative post that supported what I've observed to be a sound upgrade. I am sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way.

 

[bison]

Let me reiterate, I wasn't trying to point out any misconceptions that anyone had or anything negative about the FTB.

I was only trying to point out the merit (from another perspective) in using a large fuel line as well as the larger fitting that is part of the FTB mod. I think it's a great mod, and I don't think anyone is wrong about it. I just saw where buddy had questioned why use a larger fuel line, I did not initially pick up on his sarcasm in that post. I didn't see where anyone mentioned the severe pressure loss associated with smaller diameters, I tried to point it out.
Have a good weekend gentlemen, I was just trying to make an informative post that supported what I've observed to be a sound upgrade. I am sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way.

I think i clearly pointed that out in post # 111.

no hard feelings to anyone:wink5:

I think buddy is just nit picking:boxing_smiley:

 

[buddy]

I dont want to discourage people from doing something I know to have been a benefit to my truck's performance. If youre not worried about how quick the truck is or how fast it can go then its not important. A stronger LP is ultimately more important.

 

[Turbine Doc]

Pictures of a fed inlet fitting and a "hungry" inlet fitting

 

[bison]

I guess i need a better LP.
Under load at WOT i still get 0 pressure,no load at WOT i get 3.

 

[buddy]

For proper IP operation the books essentially say you need 5-9psi pressure, so 9psi at idle and 5psi at WOT under load would be a goal I guess. I think the combo of a stock LP and a Walbro in series would do the trick. Then could have a extra filter inbetween them.

 

[DieselSlug]

Hopefully this sunday after i get my rear drums all redone i will have time to put in my cummins L/P. Bought all the adapter fittings from summit to make it work. With my 1 year old stock L/P i get about 4 psi at idle, what a joke.

 

[Turbine Doc]

I'm currently sustaining with my Heath h/o with normal driving, I augment when hauling butt, or towing heavy and I can't maintain 5-7 per my gauge, with the Walbro in parallel, I'm set up with ability to run either 1 pump or other, or both at same time.

 

[Turbine Doc]

Bumping back to top I got some questions in PM asking about screen removal, THIS POST shows screen in question pretty well, sometimes screen gets stuck in the old filter and gets tossed away, other times it stays in the base of the filter housing, to remove for cleaning then, I use a scribe and GENTLY pull the screen out with a little pull all way round the lower lip of the screen, it may take a little patience but it will come out, in event you slip and damage the screen the p/n for that screen is also in that post.