DS4 conversion to DB2

[Missy Good Wench]

OK

We have all heard of converting the DS4 trucks to run the DB2 pumps.

Has anyone done the conversion with an auto trans and had good results.

I have seen a few writeups but they were sketchy.

With a stick shift it's a snap.

Now I have heard of using the 92-93 TPS and wiring it to the APP wiring feed on one signal set.

Specifics are what is needed here.

Getting the IP on the rig and the CCA hooked up etc, is easy. Getting the tranny to work right is the iffy part.

Comments please.


Tired of the stinking DS4 POS


MGW

 

[Acesneights1]

Robyn,
Why do you hate the DS4 so much ? I have to say I have over 150k on one and over 170k on the other. Other than relocating the PMD I think they are a very good pump. I know I have said this in other threads But I had alot of trouble with DB2s and ULSD. I actually think the DS4 works quite nicely with the 4L80e. My Dodge has aTV cable and it's a PIA to adjust. The cables on the older 6.2s with DB2s wer a PIA also. I disconnected them usually and downshifted manually. I know on my 83 and my 91 I did . It still worked ok on my Van. And let's not forget cruise control. It would take alot of fabbin to make it work with a DB2. I just don't personally see the advantage to converting.

 

[Matt Bachand]

Robyn,
Why do you hate the DS4 so much ? I have to say I have over 150k on one and over 170k on the other. Other than relocating the PMD I think they are a very good pump. I know I have said this in other threads But I had alot of trouble with DB2s and ULSD. I actually think the DS4 works quite nicely with the 4L80e. My Dodge has aTV cable and it's a PIA to adjust. The cables on the older 6.2s with DB2s wer a PIA also. I disconnected them usually and downshifted manually. I know on my 83 and my 91 I did . It still worked ok on my Van. And let's not forget cruise control. It would take alot of fabbin to make it work with a DB2. I just don't personally see the advantage to converting.

Not to mention the constant timing advancement the puter has on optimal power and fuel efficiency that the DB2 is flat

 

[Acesneights1]

I had just the opposite luck. I have never had to swap a DS4 but I have swapped a few DB2s.

 

[gmctd]

'92-'93 had DB2-4911 replete with 4L80E trans - is a specific DB2 TPS and stand-alone TCM and wiring harness for those vehicles - can prolly nab a set at a local boneyard - GM had reissued the TCM and prolly the harness, several years back, and is the TCM sold by B&M, TCI, and several others

 

[NVW]

Awhile back someone posted they had switched to a DB2 and the ecm controlled the tranny shifts without problems.

Leo

 

[Acesneights1]

I can tell you cable controlled th700s sucked.

 

[Missy Good Wench]

The issue with the DS4 can be answered very easily.

They are great when they work. When the electronics are all sweet and happy they are wonderful and do a fantastic job of controling the fuel precisely.

The issue is when they dont work they suck.

A DB2 that is in top condition is a great long life pump that has virtually ZERO Issues.

The adavance is controled via the throttle shaft and the advance arm on the RH side of the IP.

As far as durability with the ULSD, not an issue at all. Keep the fuel clean and water free and possibly add a small amount of oil to the fuel and things are sweet.

The mechanical part of the DB is really not all that much different in it's ability to tollerate the ULSD than the DS pumps.

My issue with electronics in general is that the stuff that is sold on consumer vehicles is generally less than optimal and it WILL fail when you can least afford to screw with it.

Give me a 6.5 TD with a 4911 pump and a TH 400 behind it and I will be real happy.

Basically Bomb proof setup.

The 4L80 is not a bad tranny but is not nearly as durable as the 400. The aluminum VB and all the electronics make it far less reliable than the 400.

The control cables on the 700R are not even a problem to adjust. As long as some hack has not screwed with the brackets and such the thing can be adjusted in a few minutes and they work fine.

Getting the DB series pump to work on a late model truck is no biggy. Its just getting the tranny to work right with a single TPS thats mounted on the IP that can be a tad dicey.

I know it can be done as I have seen and heard of it. Just interested in the specifics of what TPS and which set of wires from the APP to connect to.

If I do find out the secrets, I am going to do it to my 94 Burb and will do a serious writeup along with pix too.

The one thing that speaks out against the DS setup is that if it was so great the Military would use this stuff on the Hummers.

They dont, so it tells the story real clear.


MGW

 

[Missy Good Wench]

The 700R4 was a POS from the gitgo. Now that said, the aftermarket came along to the rescue and has fixed the issues very well.
Starting with an 87 or later 700 "K case" (up to when they went electronic) and do all the upgrades and performance tweeks this little box really works well.

I have built a few and they are fine. Right out of the box from Ma general they were and are a POS especially in the trucks.

The 700 is far too lightly contructed to handle the rigors of heavy useage and the torque of the diesel as well as the sharp power pulses will literally shake the little creature apart.

I built one and did all the upgrades and stuff for an 84 Blazer with a 6.2. It was great but it did not come cheap, even with Li'll Ol me swinging the wrenches.

My cost was about $1000 in parts and such. And even after all this the only advantage is the Overdrive. A basicallt stock 400 with nothing more than a shift kit will outlive,outwork and outperform the 700 10 to 1.

The 700 is just too lightly built. The main clutch drum is aluminum with the input shaft splined into the aluminum drum.

There are aftermarket "Improvements" but the drum and the clutches are still very small as compared to the 400 or the 4L80

The 4L80 has the one bigg issue of having an aluminum Valve body. The VB should be made of Iron like the 400. The bores wear out and can , if they get a little contamination, score things and then its toast.


The more they overthink the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain.

MGW

 

[Acesneights1]

Both my 4l80e have 150k+ and have towed/pushed snow. TH400 is nice if you don't mind going 55MPH on the highway. I swapped the th400 into my 83(see photo album) and the truck became useless on the highway after that. I still gotta disagree about ds vs db and ULSD and Low sulfur diesel KILLS db2s. I know this because I did a little unintentional experiment back when I owned those trucks. The Blazer(Jimmy) and Van both ran on nothing but 2 oil and both never saw an IP . My 83 ran on straight low(not ULSD) sulfur diesel and in the same three years wiped out 2 DB2s. The DS4 was built during the Low sulfur diesel days and can withstand it a bit more IMHO.. Too bad Dieselpro never came over. To me replacing my ds4 with a db2 would be like ripping off the fuel injection to put a carb back on but that's JMO. I can you you I was lovin my DS4 when all I had to do to install cruise in my truck was swap the t/S swtich. Can't do that with a db2

 

[DieselSlug]

Yeah, i like the 4L80E, mine has 205k miles of plow life (plow was installed at dealer the day of purchase) and it was a (in the family) drilling company truck, so every minimum wage scummy employee drove it an beat the snot out of it. And its still going, i want to rebuild it when i take my engine out, but the other half of me wants to see how long it will last, of course i baby it, but we will see.... I dont know anything about the db2's to make a choice....

 

[Missy Good Wench]

If the DB2 is a current rebuild or new, there are no issues with these pumps.

The peninsular marine engines use the DB2 or DB4 and they live a long time.

The DS series pumps mechanically will run about the same amount of miles with good care as a DB series.


I have seen DB pumps run on some of the nastiest stuff imaginable. Old crancase oil, tranny fluid , and any and all of it mixed with gasoline or ???? whatever was handy to thin the mix a little.


Not worried about durability here. The DB will outlast the feeble electronics many times over.

When the chops are down and your in the worst conditions possible, Hot, Cold, Wet or ???

The DB pump will get it done.

As I mentioned before, if the Military does not use the DS, it should say something about it.

If I was going into harms way, I would not fuel my rig with a electronic pump. I would really like to be able to get the hellouta dodge in a hurry.

MGW

 

[Acesneights1]

As I mentioned before, if the Military does not use the DS, it should say something about it.

MGW

If your concerned about your truck being disabled by an EMP then yes the DB2 is better. That is why Mil spec uses it. It would not be disabled in a nuclear blast zone. I always got my ol dump truck with carb and points if that happens...

 

[Acesneights1]

Basically and the only reason I have posted in this is I just don't see the advantage of going backwards in this case. IMO the DS4 will last just as long as a DB2 once the PMD issue is corrected and has more availble fuel output and works nicely with the tranny. Trying owning a VP44. Now there's an IP I'd like to subsitute something else for..

 

[Missy Good Wench]

OK. Point taken

GM did not really want to go electronic. The DB2 was certified through the 94 model year.
Some fool wanted to rush the introduction of the electronics into production.
Stanadyne knew that the DS had issues, Big issues and many.

GM forced the thing into production anyway.

We all know the results. Everyone thats owned one of these beasts has been left stranded at least once.

Now after all the mods, upgrades and liberal doses of aftermarket snakeoil, they are FAIR as far as being reliable.

When they are working as designed, the driveability is superb.
Mileage is not as good as a DB though.

My issue is this, when I crawl my lanky 6 foot frame into the beast on a cold, dark, wet or otherwise nasty day/night and flip the switch to start, It damned well better go.

When it does not or the SES light pops on I see red and turn into a raving *itch instantly.

Now My Western Star has drive by wire on the 500 Cat. 15 years and 600K miles. Hardly an issue. One sensor in all that time. Took 3 minutes to diagnose and 15 to fix it.

This I can live with.

The DS system was rushed into production and built far to cheeeeezy and has nowhere near the overbuild to suit.

The military considers the engine on a Hummer as Mission critical. Its gotta go and be relaible not fooling around with PMD's and sensors and other crap not working.

As much as I come to the forums to help, I dont enjoy crawling around under these things like I did when I was in my 20's

I demand reliability, nothing more. The only reason I own these things is that I can buy them cheap and have the knowhow to repair then and have a decent rig for a low price.

I did this same thing back in the days of the 5.7 Old diesel.

Buy a lovely 98 Olds with a dead diesel for cheap and tow it home and fix it.

I bought up tons of 5.7's that had little wrong and scavenged them for parts.

I drove a buttload of miles for very little cash outlay.


My experience with the electronics has taught me that if it can fail, IT WILL and at the least oportune time.

If you are lucky enough to have a DS thats working well, thats great. My DaHooooley is going back in with the DS. It ran great with the Heath chip and all. It just broke the block.

The Burb has loads of miles on the IP. I rebuilt the engine back in summer 05 but used the pump that came with the rig. Just swapped out the squirts is all when I did the rebuild.

The cost to have a 4911 DB2 freshened is far less than the price of a DS.

Then I will never have a PMD of any flavor or an optical sensor or any of the other crap Die on the Dark, wet, cold, or otherwise nasty night.

Its like electronic 4x4, I abhore this stuff. Pull the lever and pray.
Or worse yet, twist/turn/flip the switch and wonder if its gonna work.

Cold soak this stuff after 3 months of heavy rains and there is no gaurantee that its gonna work.

Twist the hubs, yard on the Johnson bar up front and its off to the Rodeo.

I dont hate anything as long as it works well.

I also dont consider devices that fail and leave me stranded as being advancements.

Its like ABS brakes, they are a farce. The damned things take total control away from the best computer ever made. The little brain in ones head.

I have had more times that I have had to think fast to try and get around tha damned ABS system so I would not careen into a stalled car in the Ice/snow..

The electronics are fine in my computer here on the desk, just dont want it on my truck.

Adding complexity is not necessarily a step forward in my view.

Add dependability not complexity.

Drove an 82 GMC "Jimmy" with a 6.2 for a mega amount of miles. Even when the old 6.2 was tired. worn out and the IP was on its last the little creature took me from Porland to LA and back.

The 700R failed shortly after I got the rig. I stuffed in a TH350 and ran the rig for another 100K miles.

With 3.42 gears the overdrive was not even missed.

Rig had Warn hubs, dependable tranny, DB2 injection. Doityourself4X4shiftumlever and was always there to take me to and from wherever I needed to go.

Never had a Module or a sensor or such fail, did not have any. !!!

Are the new rigs with all their electronics better, Not even IMHO. When they work are they OK, sure. Are they better when they fail, Nope. just costs more to fix and if you dont have a tech 2, your screwed.

Hey ** best

MGW

 

[Acesneights1]

well, I will admit I miss my 91. That is for sure.(See photo album). Definitely agree about the 4x4 electronic garbage. Fortunatly both mine have shift levers so the only thing that can f ' up(so far it hasn't) is the actuator on the diff. I had 3:73 Gears in teh 83 turning 33's. About 60 mph was max on the highway. TH700 ?? Patooie. No argument there. I had the better case one , still blew 2 of them. They always shifted like crap too even with shift kits. Hey, I'll be back in DB2 worls soon enough cause I just sold the Tahoe I think and the auction for the cucv is comin up. Me leave it stock when I have manifolds(intake and ex) for a 6.5 and there is an abundant supply of cheap gmx turbos waiting on the island of misfit turbos ?? Should be cool Gotta keep my foot in the 6.5 world. It's like the mob. Once your in, your in.
funny I liked the TH350's too. Only issue was NO Shift kits on stock unit.Usually blew either the TC or sprag. NOw since you have a th350 I'm gonna make you mad. I have, in my posseion, a NP205 case with Midsection for a TH350. Jealous ??? Hmmm???? I thought sooo...

 

[Missy Good Wench]

The TH 350 with a few good parts and a transgo shift kit were damned good.

The 400 with a kit is almost indestructible given any kind of reasonable use.

My choice if the $$$$ were not an issue would be a 6.5 (92/93 vintage) with a 400 back of it and a gear vendors OD on behind the T case to handle the OD work on the Highway.

The lockup Torque converter is ok but the 400 with a very well built RV converter is just fine at road speed. (Has fairly low power loss)

I can make a 700R shift very sweet with the goodies that are available.

The last one I did, I used a transgo 2-3 Kit and set up all the variables (different mods on holes drilled and springs etc) all on the Kill settings.
The thing was great, ya needed to be sure your coffe cup was glooed down well in the holder or it was leaving when the thing shifted.

The 1-2 shift was Damned stout and the 2-3 was only slightly more civilized.

I hate marshmellow shifts.

I remember back in the Old days when I worked at the Mopar dealer, OMG the Big boats with the 383 and 440's had the 727 TF and they shifted like a can of gooooooooooooooo.

Stock they were pretty sketchy as far a lasting.

Talked the boss into allowing us to do a shift kit on a customers Imperial. The old guy had been in 3 times with clutches burned up. (Towed a huge house trailer)

I put the series 2 Kit in the Impy. OMG the thing was brutal. The old guy loved it though. Never came back for any more overhauls either.

He dragged that Airstream all over the country with that Impy and never had one issue ever again.

Before he was going through a tranny every 6 months. (Not good)


Overall I just hate stuff that does not last and that can and will do better with less complexity.

If I can do it with a lever as opposed to a switch, the lever will win every time.

Never ever had an issue with this way of doing business.

The new generation has gotten so used to everything being done by a computer that they can't do it without one.

How did we ever get into the 21st century. OMG can you imagine a computer on a stage coach. Hmmmmm Now there is an idea. A Check horse light. Feed Horse soon :thumbsup:


Later

MGW

 

[midniteplowboyy]

I also hate the DS-4 pumps, great ideal in theory but it didn't have the bugs worked out. Kinda like the 4,6,8 caddies, I think they got that figured out after 25 years.

I'd stick with the 4L80. I used to be leery of the 4L80, but now I'd rather have one, unless building a drag only car. The 4L80's stock have alot more efficient converters plus lock-up, the cases seam a little beefier also.

The DB-2 and 4L80 only has two sensors on the engine(ESS and TPS), the rest is in the trans, not much to go wrong, very dependable.

Hardest thing is the cruise, snag that off a 88-93 6.2-6.5 truck, should be a pretty simple bolt on, get the go peddle and cable from the same truck also.

There is enough wires ran for you, just repin PCM to TCM connectors and put new ESS and TPS connectors on engine end of harness, actually its only four wires(ESS and TPS share the same ground).

I think the 94up mech IP vans used a two wire ESS(I know the HMMWV does), it fits where the CPS is on the 94up trucks, no need to swap over to the ESS on the oil pump drive shaft.

The 94up mech IP van TCM is ideally the one to use because of the later force control solenoid driver(higher frequency). The 91-93 TCM will work fine though, I have the later solenoid in my 93.

 

[Missy Good Wench]

The crank sensor will deliver the signal needed for the ECM to handle the engine speed

The 92-93's did not use the CPS so you need the Sensor in the oil pump drive.


MGW

 

[midniteplowboyy]

The crank sensor will deliver the signal needed for the ECM to handle the engine speed

The 92-93's did not use the CPS so you need the Sensor in the oil pump drive.


MGW

The TCM's used a two wire, not three wire sensor for the ESS sensor. I guess the three wire may be made work, I was just pointing out there is a two wire ESS sensor available thats a bolt in for the three wire CPS sensor used on the 94+ trucks.