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Build a "Hotter" Injection Pump?

D

DennisG01

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In anticipation of possibly needing a new IP, I spoke with Pensacola Diesel. They mentioned they build IP's to the Stanadyne spec of 24-26cc's, usually towards the lower end of the spectrum. However, they could build it higher than that. What are your thoughts about having that done?

Also, is this the "Optic Bump" thing, or is that a separate mod? I'm searching, researching and learning, but still a little confused on how this stuff all relates to each other. Am I correct in assuming that this "24-26cc's" is the maximum amount of fuel that the IP can output?
 
I didn't get his name. He sounded very knowledgeable and made the comment about when "he" builds a pump... as in he is one of the people that personally builds some of the pumps.

The "24-26" thing: I'm positive on those exact numbers as coming up in conversation - but maybe I'm confusing things as to what he was trying to say about those numbers?
 
He must have been giving you a plunger size/volume, so 4 plungers would be 92-104mm3 per squirt, their numbers are likely per 1000 squirts which would make it 104cc/1000 injections.

I imagine they can put larger ones in like the DS4-5068 had. You just have know how to program the PCM to work with the larger plungers.
 
I was told by a guy at Stanadyne that the 5068 only had a diff cam ring which let it bring on more fuel ealier but overall output was the same
 
Maybe thats the case, maybe it builds more transfer pressure to get more fuel in earlier. I know in the programming, the pulse width/angle is a lot less for it at higher fuel rates, which could be bacause transfer pressure is greater, or the fuel solenoid metering valve is larger. It would seem like if they made a high output pump they would make it have larger capacity too, but I dont have anything saying that.

I saw an aftermarket program made for someone that had a 5068 IP, but the programmer messed up the fueling offsets and used the ones for a 5521 IP. It would make it less responsive. When I sent them an almost stock chip for the 5068 IP their truck was more powerful. And I have yet to see any aftermarket programs adjust all of the fueling offsets to maximize the fuel capacity, even if it is 92mm3.
 
I'm thinking I'll give Pensacola a call, again. What would be some important questions to ask of them regarding a "performance" IP?

We did talk about warranty and a performance IP would have a 90-day, instead of a 1-year.
 
Just got off the phone with David at Pensacola (he's the one I talked to before). The "24-26" number was simply being used as an "example" for my benefit, the other day. He also said that while he can certainly build a performance pump, it's not something they've actually done. I was under the impression, a few days ago, that they have done this before. But, he did say it's easy enough to do by moving the "optic sensor" or the "encoder". He also mentioned that I may run into starting or driveability issues - or I may not, depending on how much it's moved.

How would I know how much is too much? What would I ask him to shoot for? Is there a number I can give him to shoot for?

Am I correct in thinking that if it turns out to be a bit too high, I can put in a lower FSD resistor?
 
Just say NO! Its not worth it to mess with the OS, it will mess things up, and if you want to do it, its easy enough after you have it working right.
 
buddy said:
Just say NO! Its not worth it to mess with the OS, it will mess things up, and if you want to do it, its easy enough after you have it working right.
Click to expand...

Oh, but the quest for more power is so enticing! I'm in that mind set, right now, of "well, while I'm doing this, I might as well do that..." - you know what I mean? I did order the Feed The Beast Mod.

Yeah, maybe you're right - get it built stock and built right. Then decide what to do. I'm comfortable turning a wrench - is this bump something that can done in a driveway?
 
ak diesel driver said:
so an optic bump is their idea of "building" a hotter pump. too bad
Click to expand...

I was hoping there was more to it, too. Maybe there is? Maybe I just didn't ask the right questions? If any of you guys that are more "in the know" feel like calling them and asking some better questions, I'm all ears to the answers!
 
DennisG01 said:
Oh, but the quest for more power is so enticing! I'm in that mind set, right now, of "well, while I'm doing this, I might as well do that..." - you know what I mean? I did order the Feed The Beast Mod.

Yeah, maybe you're right - get it built stock and built right. Then decide what to do. I'm comfortable turning a wrench - is this bump something that can done in a driveway?
Click to expand...

The bump can be done in the driveway, but there are consequences for minimal gain. Its not worth it. You can have a custom program made for the PCM to offset the negative effect of the optic bump, but I wouldnt trust people to know how to do it if you asked for that. The optic bump fools the PCM and can throw off all of the parameter tables. If you know how to custom program the PCM its something maybe worth exploring, but its not something I recommend. Its little gain for the hassle.

There are much better ways to make power, like just programming the PCM for it. Much better ways to spend money. I would want an IP that I knew was built to specifications. Make sure you get a DS4-5521S, the S being the latest spec'd hardened internals.
 
Look up posts on it back at DP from a guy named Texas Diesel Guy. It was quite interesting and discussed in very great detail. I talked to Pensacola also. They said they could build a DB2 anyway I wanted. I was hoping that wasn't a BS Statement.
 
Many of the threads discussing the optic bump fail to bring up the potential of loping idle, messing with tranny shifts, messing with boost on stock systems, and messing with the timing curve. They mostly just point out that the pedal gets more sensitive. Thats likely because timing near 0mm3 of fuel, that you are fooling the PCM into can be higher than at 5-10mm3, and since you fool the PCM to a lower fuel rate, with a stock timing curve, and many aftermarket, it can stay more advanced before higher fuel rates retard the timing. These things that provide more throttle response can just be programmed in. If your pedal is more responsive then you have less tranny pressure in shifts and shifts are earlier, but you have more power so it can do more damange in shifting, another reason a more sensitive pedal isnt a good thing, unless the tranny parameters are programmed for it.
 
Acesneights1 said:
Look up posts on it back at DP from a guy named Texas Diesel Guy. It was quite interesting and discussed in very great detail. I talked to Pensacola also. They said they could build a DB2 anyway I wanted. I was hoping that wasn't a BS Statement.
Click to expand...

TDG went into hiding I think Kenny , or maybe his employer an IP shop told him to not post on forums as some of his theories were off mark IIRC he jacked up somebodys IP in Canada and never made good on it shop was involved eventually in the warranty.

Optic bumps for all reasons Buddy cites are bad Karma a number of guys have done it with very mixed results, more often is the case after a optic bump guys start having driveability issues, sometimes happens with change in weather as optic bump can also impact cold advance settings in cold weather.

I did it on bench once @ Pensacola myself when I visited shop there passing through it's doable but requires some finesse, reprogramming and TDCO is the proper way to get extra fuel.

I talked to the guys at Pensacola about bigger plungers, micro honing required to fit plungers to the bore not impossible but you don't just drill the bore bigger & put in bigger plungers.

Also will require programming to make it work correctly to know what to do with the extra fuel fuel available. Currently there is no program out there with a bigger bore pump which is why Penisular went mechanical that isn't dependent on program to schedule fuel.

But Peninsular's "big IP" is for a marine propulsion setup that the engine will run mostly fixed speed, & that IP isn't really suited for highway variable speed driving.
 
Good. Thank you guys, for keeping me straight and saving a possible headache in the future. I'll keep it stock and just use a #9. I know it's not that much of a difference over a #5, but every little bit helps. This was a good "learning" thread for me.

I'm very happy with the tune I have - it was designed to work with the 18:1. When the funds allow - the next step is a better turbo. The engine pulls well and keeps the EGT's down (heck, even with 10,000lbs behind me on a hot summer afternoon, I can't get the temps over 1150) - but the turbo, I think, is the last piece of the puzzle.
 
Turbine Doc said:
TDG went into hiding I think Kenny , or maybe his employer an IP shop told him to not post on forums as some of his theories were off mark IIRC he jacked up somebodys IP in Canada and never made good on it shop was involved eventually in the warranty.

.
Click to expand...
YEah I remembered he dissapeared but it was a back and forth between him and JD . Just thought it was interesting. IIRC wasn't that how the concept of bumping the tdco to -1.94 came to life ?
You know reading Buddy's analysis of the effects of an optic bump I am thinking more and more that the OS is not set properly in my Dually. Except Mine starts a half a turn even in frigid weather. Just smokes alot. It's getting warmer.My tranny can't seem to be happy around 40 mph and my throttle is real touchy. Gotta get #s. When I talked to Peninsular he said he could build a bigger IP for street. That was after my inquiry about a DB4 which he said would not have street drivablity.
Of course with diesel approaching 5$/gallon the Dually may be getting swapped for a VW Rabbit.
 
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No TDCO was being used before TDG started hanging out on the forum, optic bump was one of TDGs and Quantums "better ideas" fof guys that didn't have access to a scanner to get some more Hp with several of us knew about it and mixed results when doing it and potential pitfalls if done incorrectly, TDG wasn't hearing oif it saying it was "The Way" to get more Hp along with chrome calve cover breathers if you will recall :)
 
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