Bring it on! Att vs. Hx35

[buddy]

Isnt saying stuff like you smell a troll, just like being a troll :hihi:

 

[kojo]

and at the same time if some one could get some dyno numbers on a ATT and list all info as the wether and temp and so on along with mods other than ATT listed that would be awsome!!!!

Pete

that dynosheet on first page is from 1995 K1500 suburban, F engine, ATT, Old version of my chip, 3" self made exhaust with one muffler (simons), walbro frb-5, new visco and bigger fan. no cooler
Temp was about 20'C dont know about humidity.
1995 190hp was stock, but like you see that has 195kW.

 

[Steve93mustanglx]

Sounds like all the zit covered, backwards hat wearing ricers in my area. 450 HP by merely installing MUGEN stickers... NAWZ... 68 degrees of negative camber, 2 inches of total spring length on suspension, and 15 inch exhaust pipes on a 150HP motor.

The very same idiots who put an idiot in the Presidents chair cuz "we need change".

God help us all... these will be the 8 buck an hour idiots wiping our asses in the old folks home some day when we get free health care. Hahaha

Go ahead and flame me. Tell me what ever you want. Call me a mean old man. I don't care. Socially clueless morons like this make my skin boil.

 

[Turbine Doc]

Guys may it be a troll, it may be legit if a troll lets not feed it could be a plant from another forum wanting to trivialize what we are about on this site, let's not fall into the trap, if otherwise we'll know soon enough we know ATT works, and Holsett works just different approaches to resolving the issue, owner has to select the option that works for them.

 

[TMHark]

My new turbo and tune work great, and I hope everyone finds something that works best for them (stock, Mitsu, Holset, A-Team, etc) based on their needs, budget and ability to tinker.



I'm not a big fan of generaton X attitude either, but we all gotta live on this rock together. That being said, if you can dish it out, you should be able to take it... Unless you like A-1 Steaksauce :biggrinjester:

 

[DieselSlug]

If i had the money to bolt on an ATT i would, but right now i have more time than money. So thats why i went with the HX. Plus i got a sick deal on it and a inter-cooler. But my time is about to end with going back to college. I cant weld, but i do have a friend that can weld a semi-decent line. So hopefully he will help me. But all the other fabrications of the turbo i can do. Wish i had the turbo in, we have a mustang dyno at the college. That would post up some numbers, but my truck is far from stock to begin with..

 

[great white]

ok well now that we have that out of the way! YES MY SPELLING and grammer SUCK! SORRY!! i will try harder!!!

Thanks, it'll make it much easier on the "old eye's" around here. If most guys have to work to even read your post, they're much less likely to reply. Just something to think about.....

but on to the point at hand!!!

the crew cab dually that started the this hole thing is the shop tow rig!!! we have plenty of go fast cars and trucks hear, some lifted trucks and even some tube buggys! this is a tow rig! ower old tow rig hade a 454 and 5-8 mpg to Moab UT and back 2 times a year was not cutting it!! so we picked up a 1995 chevy crew cab dualy!

Aha! That's the info we need to give you some realistic and useful advice.

So the load will be somewhere around 5-10,000 pounds (one car+trailer+spare parts and people). Right around a decent load for a 6.5.

So, with that in mind here's a few things to consider for a tow rig with a 6.5:

1. Cooling.

Cooling is pretty sensitive in a 6.5.

Those coolers that you relocated for the intercooler better have good airflow or you'll be roasting transmissions, bearings, etc.

It's not just about IAT, you need to get rid of the heat from everything else. And a loaded 6.5 will make a lot of heat. My unloaded 6.5 can roach the EGT's with just a heavy right foot. Spend too long above 1100-1200 degrees and she'll "croak" on ya.

Radiator is adequate. But, you may want to pull it out and make sure it's clean. Lot's of miles leads to lots of crud impacted in the rad fins and this cuts down on it's efficiency. Nothing extravagant required here, most here have used "scrubbing bubbles" and a garden hose to great effectiveness. Stay away from pressure washers.....

Look to swap in a high capacity water pump, like the 98-ish trucks have. While you're at it, swap in the fan clutch and add a duramax plastic fan. My 98 has dual T-stats and I like 'em, YMMV. Stay away from electric fans if towing...

2. Gauges.

You need an EGT gauge if you intend to tow. Let me say that again:

You need an EGT gauge if you intend to tow.

Without one, you're right foot in without knowing the EGT's are soaring past 1100-1200 degrees and this will melt a piston or some other nastiness. The stock Vacuum wastegate control system does some funny things from time to time, like dropping boost to "0" which sends the EGT's screaming up. which brings us to:

3. Turbo manager

Either buy one or make one if you don't want to mess with the factory vacuum boost control. Most people here that tow use one. Not all, but most.

Chuck on a boost gauge to go with it so you don't "pop" something unintentionally.

4. Fuel injectors.

High mileage injectors cut down on power and can torch a hole right through a piston if not spraying properly. While it's not a manufacturer interval, most guys here swap 'em out around 100,000 miles. It's cheap insurance, give better performance and they can be had for around 200-250 bucks for a set of eight. Try getting injectors that cheap for any of the newer diesels....

Then, you can start looking at things like fuel delivery, turbo's, intercooler, propane, water injection, fluid dampr, etc.....

"F" vin if it matters to any one!

Yup, higher output than the vin "s" and no egr. Mostly in the PCM programming. Good starting point.

it worked well for a few months then BOOM!! i will post pics of the carnage on the inside of the motor as soon as i take it apart!

Common story for people who just chuck weight on the 6.5 and go. It's an old design and needs some lovin' to be able to haul like the newer diesels right out of the box.

so now i am lookin for the best posable way to rebild the motor for TOWING with a little extra for fun!!

See comments above. The military take outs (as mentioned) are an easy solution.

in the end it needs to tow really well and look good doin it! 22's, a little drop, gmc grill, cowl hood, roll pan and paint should take care of the looks! come out lookin (IMO) way better than the dodge tow rig one of my competitors is uesing!

Appearance is easy peasy. The GMT 400 platform is probably the most customized truck every made.

Grills, roll pans, suspension, wheels, hoods, lights, escalade front clips, caddy tails, etc....

The look you want is as easy as opening up a parts book and ordering from the menu.

Here's a couple duallies for inspiration:

As you can see, the only limit is your imagination (and your budget!).

so whats is the best way to do all this!! so far i have brand new block! brand new heads,valves rockers and so on! scat crank! orderd rods and pistons! but where to go from there???

Pete

Sounds like a decent start.

Also, if that PMD isn't relocated out of the engine bay yet, get on it. The heat from the engine kills the elctronics in the stock location. Has to do with heat soak after shut down.

That little sucker will leave you stranded in the middle of nowhere with little to no notice.

There's probably a few things I've left out, like general service items (fuel filters, fuel sock, lift pumps, fluid changes, brakes, suspension stering etc) but they can all be found with a bit of reading, common sense and searching. :thumbsup:

Just remember, the 6.5 is never going to be a powerhouse like the dodges and duramax's. It's an older design and was originally built for good fuel MPG, not power.

They're good old rigs, but are also "just" good old rigs.

What you should be shooting for is a good looking roller that gets decent MPG and has enough power to tow your stuff. However, it won't ever be much more than that. But that should be enough!

Also, I'm not so sure about the "troll" thing. I think it's just someone with a lot of enthusiasm, came off the wrong way from the get-go and at the beginning of the learning curve.


Cheers

Edit- forgot to add: since you're rebuilding it, you're going to need a scanner or laptop program capable of reading IPT and TDCO to set the injector pump timing. One of the OBDI guys can advice you on what works best. Also, check your "new" block for cracking in the main webs at the cap bolt holes and the cap registers. Common issue.....

 

[gmccrewcabdually]

Thanks great white!! lots of good info! some things i did not know! some things i have found out in the last week! all and all good info!!

ill get to posting some pics in just a little bit!!

to clarify a few things the i got the truck for its looks! i love the body on them!! and we needed a diesel tow rig! and in the last 2 weeks i have learned a LOT about them! i orderd a pmd cable and cooler and lots of other stuff!!

so why would you avoid electric fans??? in my experience (be it not with the 6.5) electric fans have worked vary well at keeping motor and under hood temps lower and taking some stress off of the motor! also in theory thay should work better at low speeds! dont flex o lite make a duall fan set up for the 6.5??

Pete

 

[Veg_Out]

We sell the majority of A Team Turbo's to folks who've worn out their old ones. Get too much play, weird noises etc. From this perspective, it's amazingly affordable, as you can buy a bolt in new upgrade for less than a complete rebuild. The turbo pulls like a tractor.

PS, we aren't making much money.

As for the "bring it on" part, bring that dually down here to Idaho and I'll race you! Then give you a candy bar treat, some biodiesel, and send you on your way.

 

[DieselSlug]

We sell the majority of A Team Turbo's to folks who've worn out their old ones. Get too much play, weird noises etc. From this perspective, it's amazingly affordable, as you can buy a bolt in new upgrade for less than a complete rebuild. The turbo pulls like a tractor.

PS, we aren't making much money.

As for the "bring it on" part, bring that dually down here to Idaho and I'll race you! Then give you a candy bar treat, some biodiesel, and send you on your way.

I wish i was closer to you guys with ATT's just to hear them in person, and see the difference from my truck thats running the best it can with my skrawny GM-4.

 

[gmccrewcabdually]

Veg_out a good race is always fun!! and im not that far away!! so maybe when the truck is done i will have to come see you guys! and i do hope you know its all in fun!! i have hade a diesel for 6 months! you guys have done your homework i am sure! i just dont like buying things without hard numbers! aka if some one can probe to me it works and is better ill spend the bucks!! but if not i will go with what i know and trial and error to find the right fit and then share my storry!!

Pete

 

[nobby]

the ATT will get you to 100 mph with just 10 psi boost, so same net gain as the HX without stressing engine any more than necessary.

Thanks for the ride Tim and it sure does do as said.

As to people wanting to see/hear the difference well for what its worth as someone who works on diesels professionally for a living I am suitably impressed and it behaves well across the rev band for whatever you are asking it to do. It's pretty much a no brainer really from the point of view of a direct bolt in with great benefits.

Cheers
Nobby

 

[Veg_Out]

You'll all be able to see, hear and feel an a team in another couple weeks. I've been taking photos and video of my motor rebuild and will have some actual A Team vids going on youtube soon.

Thanks

 

[DieselSlug]

You'll all be able to see, hear and feel an a team in another couple weeks. I've been taking photos and video of my motor rebuild and will have some actual A Team vids going on youtube soon.

Thanks

Please do so, im very interested. Ill miss the turbo whistle, but if the performance and economy gain is that impressive i may think about trading in the WH1C to start funds.

 

[Veg_Out]

You won't miss the whistle, it'll just be replaced by more of a jet engine afterburner type sound!

 

[gmccrewcabdually]

cool cool!! the thread has taken a turn in the direction i was wanting!! i would love to come see the ATT in action and so what the att and hx do side by side!!

Pete

 

[buddy]

GW gave you lots of good info, but just know, he hasnt gotten there yet, but these trucks can indeed be quite fun and at 300hp, it will feel and fly down the road faster than some of that new stuff. But as he said, not off the lot, needs the right modifications.

Let us know what block you have, and if you read my previous post on it there are some things to consider before putting it all together.

Perhaps the number one killer of these engines is heat as GW mentioned, and because the temp gauge goes way too high. At 230F you are already in major danger zone and need to get it down ASAP. A well running cooling setup and properly tuned engine will run less than 210 even towing heavy and making lots of power. Electric fans may work great at idle and around town, but probably cannot pull the AMAZING amount of air that these 9 blade clutch driven fans can when under load going up a hill. The 2000 year water pump with spin on fan clutch and 9 blade fan or DMAX plastic fan should be used for a reliable towing rig. The pre-2000 high flow water pumps had less balanced flow. I still have the low flow water pump from 94 and single stat, with a good clutch and DMax fan I can't get the truck over 200F, towing just like a single car on trailer. The double T-stat housing crossover is not much of an advantage, and using the single T-stat makes timing the IP and accessing things much easier on the OBD1 rigs with AC on passenger side and alternator on the drivers side.

 

[Dylly]

You won't miss the whistle, it'll just be replaced by more of a jet engine afterburner type sound!

We need some you tube videos of what that ATT sounds like... I know there is one on there right now but the audio is awful... it would do no turbo (ATT or otherwise) justice with that kind of muffling...

 

[gmccrewcabdually]

dos any one know the CFM on a D-max fan??? ya every one seas the dmay fan is the way to go but i cant see how it would work better than a pair of 16" 3500 cfm fans!! with hi-low! i mean there is even more fan blade surface area! and it works the same no mater the rpm! and if i pull over to do whatever that still work!

i mean the math seams to work for dual 16" e fans over dmax but i wish i hade the cfm rate on the d-max fan!

i think i will try the dual e fan set up and see what hapons! i can always go back to the d-max fan right?!

Pete

 

[buddy]

Dont worry at idle the DMax fan still pulls lots of air. It doesnt matter what your electric fans are rated to in an ambiant envornment, do they have the torque to pull/push that much CFM through a restriction? Funny what happens when you block the intake or exhaust of an electric fan. It keeps spinning but at low current and does very little because its not moving any air. So it may not actually be able to pull any more air through the radiator than what air pressure you already have when going 55mph. When towing sometimes you need the fan even when at highway speeds, which in most cars that is not true