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6.5 Mod Info

F

FordGuy100

New Member
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Location
Tyler, Texas
Hello all,

I found this site by searching for DS4 pump info. Obviously I'm a Ford guy so I feel a little "dirty" being over here :eek:

I come to seek info on mods you guys do to your 6.5's. I've read of some pump tricks that were a little over my head (obviously I'm a Ford guy...what isnt over my head :D). I want to know what kind of pump tricks you guys have up your sleeve for the DB2, DB4, or DS4. We Ford IDI owners are lagging behind for sure on this.

I own a 1985 Ford F250 4x4 (Dana 44HD TTB...yikes almost as bad as that truck brand with IFS :D) 6.9/T19 (gotta love a non overdrive tranny... still gets 17mpg at 65mph/2300rpms). Grandfather bought it new. Passed it down to me with 113K miles on it 3 years ago. I have since added a 093 ATS wastegated turbo (T3/T4 hybrid), ARP head studs, 4" exhaust, ISSPRO Tach, boost, pyro, oil and water temp gauges. Plus a full paint job and other stuff. You can search my vids on youtube, under the same user name.

Basically I have come to seek your wisdom...what do you guys do to get power out of your rigs? Easy things, hard things, I wanna hear them. Or point me to a thread...even though I drive a Ferd I can read ):h

6.9/7.3 mod support isnt high, be we have strong following. We do need to address some things. Turbo, pump, injectors, timing, compression ratio.

I do have a source for pumps. He calls them moose pumps...and they do work as advertise. The regular moose pump flows 90mm^3/1000 strokes, while the super moose pump flows 120mm^3. I have seen dyno sheets of moose injectors (emd'ed tips) and a regular moose pump...put down 205 hp and 460ft lbs of torque...all with a reeeeeeallly restrictive turbo. Those were the only mods. Heck I can see 15+psi of boost at 2400rpm's...but I cringe to think of the air inlet temperatures or how far out of its effeciency range it is.

My next motor I build will look like this. Bottom end balanced to 4000rpm's. .030 off the top of the pistons (only way we can lower compression without going custom). Moose injectors and super moose pump. Custom intake. ARP studs everywhere. Turbo gets tricky. Either a DT466 turbo, a SD 7.3 turbo (wastegated), or a ball bearing T3 with a T70 compressor on it. Or maybe something wacky like a 6.0 powerstroke turbo (nightmare with the VGT).

Fill me in Guys :thumbsup:

:iamwithstupid:
 
So, do you have a 6.5?

Or are you looking for stuff to adapt to a Ford IDI?

I can't really tell from your post...

Have no fear, I'm not going to rip into you because you have a Ford. I'm a Ford man myself -83 5.0 mustang and 1962 T-bird - to go with my Chrysler 300M Special and my trusty 98 Sierra 6.5 TD.
 
I researched the moose pump,sounds like he's using the 7.3 pumps with .310 plungers,which is the same as the 6.5 chevy ,db2 has 2 plungers,db4 and ds4 have 4 plungers.
 
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FG1, welcome to the site while your are in the 6.5 section, we don't hold it against you being a ford guy much :)

Is that IP a full mechanical IP ??? or electronically regulated like the DS4 check out this post it may help on your IP as well. FTB is something I came up with a few years back http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/showthread.php?t=572

I don't know what kind of filtration the Fords have, but GM necked down the inlet supply to the IP, and also the outlet of the filter manager, also the lift pump used was marginal once you start pushing the envelope or pulling heavy.

what kind of turbo you looking at, we have one for the 6.5 that works well it may work for the 6.9/7.3 http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/showthread.php?t=2015
 
Mainly looking to see if I can get any idea's to adapt over. More than likely not, but heck its worth a shot.

All Ford IDI's use DB2 mechanical pumps. There was talk of trying to make a hybrid DB2 with a DB4 or DS4 head and rotor to flow more fuel (4 plungers vs 2). It sounds like the DS4 wouldnt work though.

For turbo's a T70 compressor wheel (T4) with the current T3 exhaust housing would be a nice upgrade. One guy with a DT466 turbo remote mounted, claims to hit 5psi just revving in neutral....I know it can push boost/cfm but that claim has me a little worried if it can boost that much that easily.
 
There are mods available for your DB2, what have you guys already done to the DB2 pumps you are using, What is modified in the "moose" pump?
Also what kind of pre cups are you running.?
 
The good news is, if you look at the Grill of your truck, FMC did you a huge favor by circling the problem. Put a nice bowtie there and your well on your way.




Sorry dude, couldn't resist :) At least your burning oil :thumbsup:

Welcome to the site friend.

Just to add something to this useless post, do you run a fuel pressure gauge before the IP? Our trucks run great with zero fuel pressure, even better with 8-10 at IP. I know its basic, but the most simple things are easily overlooked. (still trying to justify my useless post)...
 
Slim Shady said:
There are mods available for your DB2, what have you guys already done to the DB2 pumps you are using, What is modified in the "moose" pump?
Also what kind of pre cups are you running.?
Click to expand...

Moose products are under wraps so to speak. The guy contacted a rebuilder and funded the pumps, so you get them through him. I don't really know what the rebuilder does to them. I do know they, or at least the regular moose pump, will flow what's advertised.

The only pre cups we have are the stockers. I'm sure there is room for improvement. Buy with lack of aftermarket support all we have are the stock ones.

Another question for you guys us injection pressure, or pop off pressures. Our injectors pop at around 2100 on the high side.
 
Pic of my truck.

DSC00024-2-1.jpg
 
There is the obvious DB2 screw to turn up the fuel flow, have you already done that?

6.2turbo knows a lot about the DB2 and getting it to push fuel. Any way you increase internal transfer pressure it will increase fuel output. fuel injected is a matter of pressure and time.

The injectors probably just have the nozzle tip ground down like a quarter mm to create a larger orifice. If you are going to use those injectors and increase fuel output a bunch I would set pop pressure higher to 2300psi. It may cause a little more diesel rattle but no problem. Should allow it to be more efficient and lower EGTs.

Is your lift/transfer pump from the fuel tank mechanical or electric? A strong 15psi one will help.
 
Yes the easy to do "fuel" screw was maxxed out then backed out a bit. Rumor was maxxing it was hard on the internal parts and can cause failure.

The internal modifications are what I am interested in. I know you can get them to flow a lot, back in the day sled pulleys used these pumps. But I just couldn't find anybody willing to share some info.

Moose injectors ate actually edm'ed. There is a guy who has aftermarket injectors that all he does is grind the tip. They may flow a lot but their pop pressure and spray patterns were horrible. If you like black smoke that's the ticket.

Stock lift pump right now, but I have never heard of anyone starving the IP because of it. The holley red or blue pumps were a common mod, but not because the stock one couldn't push fuel only because of ease of bleeding the fuel system. Also going to high with fuel pressure adcvances timing... Which is another week point. To much timing burns up our glow plugs.

Sorry for the spelling I'm using a phone right now.
 
If you increase fuel output you want more advance anyway. I run my DS4 timing to 45 degrees crank timing, and I doubt your DB2 will ever get there anyway. The IDI delays ignition and combustion a bit, so injection timing vs ignition timing is a bit elusive for the IDI, but they require more advance injection compared to direct injection.

6.2turbo commented that the DS4 is a much more robust pump, which might be why I can run high fuel rates and advanced timing without problems.

Lift pump might not be starving the IP that you know of, have you monitored fuel pressure at the IP inlet? More pressure will make it happy.
 
More advance is fine, and I agree it will create more power. But, for some reason, weither it is compression ratio, pre cup design, or something else.... We simply can't runthat much timing. Like I said, it will actually pit the glow plugs and eat them away. We can eliminate the glow plugs... But that's brings hard starts especially in colder areas. My truck will start normal at any temp above 70, below that more cranking is required, but might as well use the glow plugs.

I think you guys have self regulating glow plugs too? I haven't found a reliable set for ford IDI's so we have to be careful with the glow plugs.

I have not put a gauge on it. But anything over 8psi starts messing with timing, advancing it. The same as turning the Allen head on the inlet side. And we can't run much timing. Really makes me wonder why we can't run that much though.
 
Matt Bachand said:
The good news is, if you look at the Grill of your truck, FMC did you a huge favor by circling the problem. Put a nice bowtie there and your well on your way.




Sorry dude, couldn't resist :) At least your burning oil :thumbsup:

Welcome to the site friend.

Just to add something to this useless post, do you run a fuel pressure gauge before the IP? Our trucks run great with zero fuel pressure, even better with 8-10 at IP. I know its basic, but the most simple things are easily overlooked. (still trying to justify my useless post)...
Click to expand...

I thought you circle the correct answer? :D

Nope don't have a fuel pressure gauge. Seems like a decent idea.
 
Not sure why it pits the glow plugs. Maybe its just that you have poor injectors (which is very common with these mechanical ones) or low pop pressures, or poor combustion in general when you turn up the fuel. Not combusting that extra fuel with more boost could be the issue.

Is there a Bosch Duraterm for your application?
 
I thought that the Navistar IDI's used the same glow plug as the GM IDI's. I do know that they use the same lifters. Not that the information would ever be useful, but now we all know! Anyway, welcome to the board FG1.

That's a nice looking rig, for a ford!(we're glad you're here, but you know we'll never give it a rest!) I have always said that the 6.9/7.3 IDI don't get enough respect.

They were good engines I think, but the ford guys 'round here avoid them for some reason. I'd rather have a powerstroke too, but I've seen some nice IDI's go really cheap.

(Let me clarify, I'd rather have a 7.3 powerstroke. I'd take a long romantic night locked in a cell with 'bubba' before I'd own a 6.0/6.4!)

It's funny that you are here looking for help, because I have been thinking that we should be checking with you guys to see what we can do to make our IP's better! Guess I can forget that idea....
 
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I have a Ford pump core that I used for parts,it had the .290 plungers,you should at least start with the .310 plunger pump. The metering valve is the main restriction,I modified a 2 x .310 plunger pump metering valve and locked the governor,and left out the plunger travel limiter and screw,and ground the cam a little,mainly taking off the bump at the bottom of the lobe. This pump was almost undriveable at part throttle,but full throttle it produced enough fuel to make 50 psi boost with a WH1C. I think I might of had the timing advance locked also.
 
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