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6.5 Mod Info
- Thread starter FordGuy100
- Start date
FordGuy100
New Member
So far nobody has bought the super moose. Just because non of us can support that much fuel. To much commpression means we cant run enough boost to keep the EGT's down.
As far as pitting, we are fine and dandy if we keep the timing below 9.7* ATDC Pulse (well its either pulse or luminosity, both have different numbers, I forget which one is which). After that its in glow plug eating territory. I've seen pics of them eaten to nothing with to much timing. 6.9's have the injectors basically spray on the glow plug tip, which is nice for cold starts, but I'm sure it doesnt help with pitting. Maybe its a combo of low pop pressure and poor spray pattern?
And whats a bosch duraterm?
As for the engines themselves they are pretty robust. The guy from DPS performance (who sells the bad "performance" injectors) says the stock bottom end is good to right at 500hp. He does have some IDI's up in that range it seems. There is a clip of a low compression 6.9...talk about a hard start. Back in the early 90's a Ford IDI was the first diesel into the 9" quarter mile. I can find the article if you would like. The motor had 8:1 compression, ran 150psi of boost, some crazy pump, all custom. Block flexxed so much (1000hp) that rubber freeze plugs were installed, as the brass ones were bending.
As far as avoiding them, thats mainly due to power. With no aftermarket who wants to spend as much for a nice IDI as a powerstroke when there is more potential with a powerstroke. That said the 6.4 is pretty awesome, along with the new 6.7. 6.4 + intake + exhaust + spartan 310hp tune +stock tranny will put down 550hp and 1100ft lbs of torque.
As far as pitting, we are fine and dandy if we keep the timing below 9.7* ATDC Pulse (well its either pulse or luminosity, both have different numbers, I forget which one is which). After that its in glow plug eating territory. I've seen pics of them eaten to nothing with to much timing. 6.9's have the injectors basically spray on the glow plug tip, which is nice for cold starts, but I'm sure it doesnt help with pitting. Maybe its a combo of low pop pressure and poor spray pattern?
And whats a bosch duraterm?
As for the engines themselves they are pretty robust. The guy from DPS performance (who sells the bad "performance" injectors) says the stock bottom end is good to right at 500hp. He does have some IDI's up in that range it seems. There is a clip of a low compression 6.9...talk about a hard start. Back in the early 90's a Ford IDI was the first diesel into the 9" quarter mile. I can find the article if you would like. The motor had 8:1 compression, ran 150psi of boost, some crazy pump, all custom. Block flexxed so much (1000hp) that rubber freeze plugs were installed, as the brass ones were bending.
As far as avoiding them, thats mainly due to power. With no aftermarket who wants to spend as much for a nice IDI as a powerstroke when there is more potential with a powerstroke. That said the 6.4 is pretty awesome, along with the new 6.7. 6.4 + intake + exhaust + spartan 310hp tune +stock tranny will put down 550hp and 1100ft lbs of torque.
FordGuy100
New Member
I was thinking he keeps it under wraps because if info leaked on what plungers, ect...is put in there, he might loose clientel. The cost is also varying on the moose pump, its a rebuild along with modification. Send him an old core and it would cost more than a new pump because more parts need to be replaced.
buddy
Active Member
Our compression ratio is 21.5:1 to 22:1 so thats pretty high for us and we do alright with 20+ psi boost.
I think the pitting is from poor injectors and poor combustion, possibly even dripping ones when engine is off. Have you seen it on more than one vehilce? We all have glow plugs in the precup with the injector. How much glow time do you run, 10 seconds is enough on anything above freezing for us, and anything more than 20 seconds would just be too long IMO. None of my glow plugs have ever even looked bad when removed, even the bad ones. Bosch Duraterm is a glow plug that is thought to be of best quality option for us. Fast Heating, self regulating.
How do you measure timing, is that 9.7* crank timing at idle? Our 6.5s run best from 18-22* crank timing at idle. And up to 41-45* crank timing at high RPM
I think the pitting is from poor injectors and poor combustion, possibly even dripping ones when engine is off. Have you seen it on more than one vehilce? We all have glow plugs in the precup with the injector. How much glow time do you run, 10 seconds is enough on anything above freezing for us, and anything more than 20 seconds would just be too long IMO. None of my glow plugs have ever even looked bad when removed, even the bad ones. Bosch Duraterm is a glow plug that is thought to be of best quality option for us. Fast Heating, self regulating.
How do you measure timing, is that 9.7* crank timing at idle? Our 6.5s run best from 18-22* crank timing at idle. And up to 41-45* crank timing at high RPM
FordGuy100
New Member
The problem with high boost for us boils down to the turbo's. Why boost a turbo that high if its out if its effeciency by 12psi. Like I said I can peg my 15psi gauge at 2400rpm's in 4th.
I've seen it happen on several motors, half of which had brand new injectors. I have a push buttom glow plug system, I hold it on for about 4 seconds these days just to aid with emmissions. With the weather I dont dont need glow plugs, it'll start up like it would with an 8 second glow plug burn.
Bosch glow plugs are a no-no for us at this time. Some swear by them, but most prefer motorcraft/Beru glow plugs. The self regulating glow plugs wont work with the stock glow plug system as it relys on an ohm reading from the glow plugs to know when to kick off.
Timing is done with either a luminosity or a pulse method. Both require you to clip a special piezo clip on the number 1 injector line, and it works its magic. Somehow it sense the fuel going through the line and displays the fuel timing compared to the crank timing.
I've seen it happen on several motors, half of which had brand new injectors. I have a push buttom glow plug system, I hold it on for about 4 seconds these days just to aid with emmissions. With the weather I dont dont need glow plugs, it'll start up like it would with an 8 second glow plug burn.
Bosch glow plugs are a no-no for us at this time. Some swear by them, but most prefer motorcraft/Beru glow plugs. The self regulating glow plugs wont work with the stock glow plug system as it relys on an ohm reading from the glow plugs to know when to kick off.
Timing is done with either a luminosity or a pulse method. Both require you to clip a special piezo clip on the number 1 injector line, and it works its magic. Somehow it sense the fuel going through the line and displays the fuel timing compared to the crank timing.
The 6.5 sprays directly onto the glow plug also . I wonder if the Ford glow plugs are no good,I never heard of too much timing eating a glow plug,but it can blow a head gasket. I had my timing advanced so far on my 6.2 that I could feel the motor bind at full throttle,and the glow plugs still looked like new,but it blew the head gaskets.
buddy
Active Member
So that is setting the timing to 9.7* advance at idle, and during operation it could go to say 35* advance when internal IP pressures make it advance at high RPMs. So you could still set up for higher fuel pressure and set it to 9.7* advance at idle by rotating the IP.
My GM4 turbo loses efficiency after 10psi too, but the engine still benefits from 18psi out of it with large exhaust and my EGTs dont get too high, even though IATs climb. You can stap an ATT turbo to yours or a Holset from a Dodge.
Using motorcraft glow plugs, maybe thats the problem. Or maybe people were using 6V plugs on 12V switches, or using older plugs that swelled. Maybe the problem is that you dont use good self regulating plugs. Are you sure it uses an ohm reading to shut them off? I assume they are all in parallel, so it uses a reading that would be correct if all 8 were operating correctly? Maybe thats another problem
Our older ones operate off a radiant heat coming off the engine (if the controller was cold, a coil would allow current through longer than if it was warm), and the 1994+ trucks use the coolant and air temp sensors and battery voltage to determine how long to activate the glow controller.
My GM4 turbo loses efficiency after 10psi too, but the engine still benefits from 18psi out of it with large exhaust and my EGTs dont get too high, even though IATs climb. You can stap an ATT turbo to yours or a Holset from a Dodge.
Using motorcraft glow plugs, maybe thats the problem. Or maybe people were using 6V plugs on 12V switches, or using older plugs that swelled. Maybe the problem is that you dont use good self regulating plugs. Are you sure it uses an ohm reading to shut them off? I assume they are all in parallel, so it uses a reading that would be correct if all 8 were operating correctly? Maybe thats another problem
Our older ones operate off a radiant heat coming off the engine (if the controller was cold, a coil would allow current through longer than if it was warm), and the 1994+ trucks use the coolant and air temp sensors and battery voltage to determine how long to activate the glow controller.FordGuy100
New Member
The glow plugs are 6v in a 12v system, yes they are prone to burning out over time. Beru's seem to be the best, some, like autolites, have a high chance of burning and swelling in the head, some even break off while running (kinda hard to pass a glow plug tip...). The later 7.3 system checks ohm readings. When cold they should be less than 1ohm a piece. When hot they go higher. Bad glow plugs have high ohms, so if you have a bad glow plug, the controller wont hold the glow plugs on that long as it thinks they are already semi hot. 6.9's use a different system, but most bypass the controller as its known to fail (mine did, and I was one of the lucky ones with it failing in the off postion, most of the time it fails in the on position frying the glow plugs).
We have the same glow plug thread pattern as a 5.7 olds diesel if that helps. I know of one guy using 12v 5.7 plugs, takes like a minute to warm up but they probably wont ever burn out.
I disagree on the turbo statement. Taking them out of efficiency severly reduces there life. I ought to hook the wastegate back up. The ATT turbo is non gated correct? I kinda read up on that.
I will get info on timing and get back to you guys. I've never done it personally, only read it on the forums. I have mine advaced a little, probably enough to counteract the retarded timing that a pump experiences as it ages.
Also to much timing makes it sound like a powerstroke, who wants that
We have the same glow plug thread pattern as a 5.7 olds diesel if that helps. I know of one guy using 12v 5.7 plugs, takes like a minute to warm up but they probably wont ever burn out.
I disagree on the turbo statement. Taking them out of efficiency severly reduces there life. I ought to hook the wastegate back up. The ATT turbo is non gated correct? I kinda read up on that.
I will get info on timing and get back to you guys. I've never done it personally, only read it on the forums. I have mine advaced a little, probably enough to counteract the retarded timing that a pump experiences as it ages.
Also to much timing makes it sound like a powerstroke, who wants that
buddy
Active Member
Running 6V plugs off a 12V solenoid, found the problem I would highly recommend a 12V Bosch Duraterm, or a recent model AC Delco 12V plug. AC Delcos used to swell too but recent models have corrected that.
My GM4 turbo is 17 years young and still going strong, occasioanlly putting out 20+ psi when I want to. Engine cant get enough air, it loves it. Of course would be better if it was cool air, and the ATT turbo I also have is better for that and more efficient in that range. ATT is non-wastegated, much larger turbine, needs a bit more RPM to get it spooling fast, but works real well.
Real familiar with the glow plugs and ohms. However, I wonder if your later glow plug controllers actually measure the ohms, or if they go off of battery voltage as our do. Because one that is high ohms wont draw current so wont draw down the battery so it wont glow as long because it thinks battery is still charged from being running or that the higher voltage would heat the plugs up faster or whatever GM was thinking with that programming. The lookup table for glow plug time looks for battery voltage and as battery voltage increases glow time decreases. and the other side of that lookup table is engine temperature (as engine temp increases glow time decreases). It is common to have a couple bad plugs in our trucks and glow time will just always be like 5 seconds whether its warm or cold out, and your battery will only draw down to like 12V, instead of 11 or 10.5V.
Do you have a schematic of the glow plug system or operational description of the system? I'm intrugued that the controller would work that way and would really like to see that. A regulated plug should go to a high resistance just like any other hot plug, however it will go higher once its hot to regulate it from overheating and if it starts to cool before the cycle is over resistance would go down to heat up again.
I have also been interested in how the mechanical guys time their IPs, so this is for 6.5 knowledge too that maybe I could find in the 6.2 section. I am intimately familair with timing the electronic stuff, but not the mechanical ones. Very interested in why you wouldnt be able to run 17-22* idle advance like GM did with the electronic pumps. Maybe just one more benefit of precision injection You dont even have to put it to higher than 10* crank advance at idle, but with increased internal pressure it would go higher with higher fuel rates. thats how the fuel rate is controlled, by increasing pressure with RPM.
You can also try to port the precup mouths. there is a thread here about doing that. GM had like 5 different precup designs, but some people port it out a little larger that GM's largest option.
I would highly recommend a 12V Bosch Duraterm, or a recent model AC Delco 12V plug. AC Delcos used to swell too but recent models have corrected that. My GM4 turbo is 17 years young and still going strong, occasioanlly putting out 20+ psi when I want to. Engine cant get enough air, it loves it. Of course would be better if it was cool air, and the ATT turbo I also have is better for that and more efficient in that range. ATT is non-wastegated, much larger turbine, needs a bit more RPM to get it spooling fast, but works real well.
Real familiar with the glow plugs and ohms. However, I wonder if your later glow plug controllers actually measure the ohms, or if they go off of battery voltage as our do. Because one that is high ohms wont draw current so wont draw down the battery so it wont glow as long because it thinks battery is still charged from being running or that the higher voltage would heat the plugs up faster or whatever GM was thinking with that programming. The lookup table for glow plug time looks for battery voltage and as battery voltage increases glow time decreases. and the other side of that lookup table is engine temperature (as engine temp increases glow time decreases). It is common to have a couple bad plugs in our trucks and glow time will just always be like 5 seconds whether its warm or cold out, and your battery will only draw down to like 12V, instead of 11 or 10.5V.
Do you have a schematic of the glow plug system or operational description of the system? I'm intrugued that the controller would work that way and would really like to see that. A regulated plug should go to a high resistance just like any other hot plug, however it will go higher once its hot to regulate it from overheating and if it starts to cool before the cycle is over resistance would go down to heat up again.
I have also been interested in how the mechanical guys time their IPs, so this is for 6.5 knowledge too that maybe I could find in the 6.2 section. I am intimately familair with timing the electronic stuff, but not the mechanical ones. Very interested in why you wouldnt be able to run 17-22* idle advance like GM did with the electronic pumps. Maybe just one more benefit of precision injection
You dont even have to put it to higher than 10* crank advance at idle, but with increased internal pressure it would go higher with higher fuel rates. thats how the fuel rate is controlled, by increasing pressure with RPM. You can also try to port the precup mouths. there is a thread here about doing that. GM had like 5 different precup designs, but some people port it out a little larger that GM's largest option.
FordGuy100
New Member
Yes I agree, 6v on 12v wasnt the greatest idea....but talk about some fast heating up of the glow plugs . Maybe a 12v plug will hold up better to not pitting...?
Yes the 7.3 system works on ohms. Ignition in the cab triggers the controller to switch on unless there is a high ohm. So if the truck had just been running for 15 minutes, obviously the engine was warm, with the engine being warm, the glow plugs would be...which means it wouldnt use the glow plugs or use them for a very short time. Thats the problem with self regulated glow plugs, they may be a better plug, but you cant use the stock controller. If you do it will heat them up to a certain ohm reading and it will cut out, and they wont be near hot enough to have a good cold start (if its cold out).
Yup, you put a little sensor on the injector line, and it tells you the timing. I've never done it, nor seen it, but thats how it works. Cold idle advance advances the pump about 2 degrees though, so it will sit right around 11* advanced.
I know of a couple guys who have port and polished there heads, and it helps. I never did it as I didnt have the tools on hand when I pulled the motor (yup, pulled the motor a week before I drove from Oregon to Texas...finished up the last minute details the day I left. Young and dumb I guess :iagree::iamwithstupid. One guy opened up the precups but we thought he went to far, and actually hurt performance...a lot. We need them for the swirl, and opening them up to far hurt the combustion swirl. As far as I know 7.3 and 6.9 precups were different design. 7.3's were a little larger in cc^3.
One thing that would help would be some dished pistons...but non are available. I would think dished pistons with the IDI would act weird anyways?
. Maybe a 12v plug will hold up better to not pitting...?Yes the 7.3 system works on ohms. Ignition in the cab triggers the controller to switch on unless there is a high ohm. So if the truck had just been running for 15 minutes, obviously the engine was warm, with the engine being warm, the glow plugs would be...which means it wouldnt use the glow plugs or use them for a very short time. Thats the problem with self regulated glow plugs, they may be a better plug, but you cant use the stock controller. If you do it will heat them up to a certain ohm reading and it will cut out, and they wont be near hot enough to have a good cold start (if its cold out).
Yup, you put a little sensor on the injector line, and it tells you the timing. I've never done it, nor seen it, but thats how it works. Cold idle advance advances the pump about 2 degrees though, so it will sit right around 11* advanced.
I know of a couple guys who have port and polished there heads, and it helps. I never did it as I didnt have the tools on hand when I pulled the motor (yup, pulled the motor a week before I drove from Oregon to Texas...finished up the last minute details the day I left. Young and dumb I guess :iagree::iamwithstupid
. One guy opened up the precups but we thought he went to far, and actually hurt performance...a lot. We need them for the swirl, and opening them up to far hurt the combustion swirl. As far as I know 7.3 and 6.9 precups were different design. 7.3's were a little larger in cc^3.One thing that would help would be some dished pistons...but non are available. I would think dished pistons with the IDI would act weird anyways?
FordGuy100
New Member
Ok, it seems my current pump has .29" plungers, correct? And .31" would be an upgrade.
I've searched, but it seems like you have to be a standyne rebuilder to get any parts for them. How does one go about getting parts?
Also, if the metering valve is a restriction...is there anything you can do to make it less of restriction?
Just found out ATS will sell a conversion to let guys with the 093 kit (the old wategated kit before the aurora turbo's, and the factory turbo kit on the 7.3 IDIT)...to run an Aurora 3000 turbo. There stock kit for the IDI comes with an aurora 2000. It should be able to flow enough :iagree:. Plus is a bolt in
I've searched, but it seems like you have to be a standyne rebuilder to get any parts for them. How does one go about getting parts?
Also, if the metering valve is a restriction...is there anything you can do to make it less of restriction?
Just found out ATS will sell a conversion to let guys with the 093 kit (the old wategated kit before the aurora turbo's, and the factory turbo kit on the 7.3 IDIT)...to run an Aurora 3000 turbo. There stock kit for the IDI comes with an aurora 2000. It should be able to flow enough :iagree:. Plus is a bolt in
FordGuy100
New Member
Don't know the IP number. You want serial number or flow number? Stock 6.9's are governed to 3300. Stock 7.3's are governed to 3800. OH industrial motors were governed to 2800.
One kid ran a 6.2 govenor spring in his IP. Motor went out due to a bent rod after like 5000 miles. He turns his new motor to 4500.
I guess I should just go pull an IP and tear it apart to see what it looks like.
One kid ran a 6.2 govenor spring in his IP. Motor went out due to a bent rod after like 5000 miles. He turns his new motor to 4500.
I guess I should just go pull an IP and tear it apart to see what it looks like.
buddy
Active Member
What is the model number on your IP, is it a DB2-4911
This is a neat article
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/general/0809dp_stanadyne_db2_injection_pump/photo_03.html
Housing pressure is regulated by return fitting, and then a transfer pressure regulator (is this what you turn up the fuel with)
But perhaps restricting the return will increase housing pressure and also affect transfer pressure. 6.2Turbo could explain this.
This is a neat article
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/general/0809dp_stanadyne_db2_injection_pump/photo_03.html
Housing pressure is regulated by return fitting, and then a transfer pressure regulator (is this what you turn up the fuel with)
But perhaps restricting the return will increase housing pressure and also affect transfer pressure. 6.2Turbo could explain this.
FordGuy100
New Member
Tried finding the model number, I havent had much success yet. I will keep on searching though.