97 hard start suddenly

[royunion]

Oh yes it does.

Spent 11/23/2024 swapping the new starter back in.

Spins the motor but won't start UNLESS the starter charger is hooked up in start mode.

It will start it cold or hot but even though the batteries are fully charged and crank the engine fast, it only starts INSTANTLY with the starter charger hooked up.

You can hear and see the glow plug load on the little generator powering the starter charger.

Even without it I can see the glow plugs hit the batteries before cranking.

No air in the line, as the gauge shows holding 5 to 8 psi when off. Any thoughts what might cause a no inject confition

 

[dbrannon79]

Can you record a video and post it for us to see? my first thought is possibly failing battery cables and or the new starter is not spinning the engine fast enough. you might also want to pull both batteries and go have them tested. have them give you a printout on what each one is providing for cranking amps.

 

[MrMarty51]

Does this still have the side terminal battery cables ?
If so, pull the right side positive cables apart.
Check that lead washer slug between the cables.
Those things become corroded and sort of melt, creating bad connections between the cables.
When that happens, then basically, the starter will be cranking off of just the right side battery.
I used to have to clean those two cable connections and that slug about every six months.
I finally took the entire cable mess to the NAPA store and the sales counter guy and I fabricated up an entire new post terminal cable system.
Now that really works nice.

 

[royunion]

Does this still have the side terminal battery cables ?
If so, pull the right side positive cables apart.
Check that lead washer slug between the cables.
Those things become corroded and sort of melt, creating bad connections between the cables.
When that happens, then basically, the starter will be cranking off of just the right side battery.
I used to have to clean those two cable connections and that slug about every six months.
I finally took the entire cable mess to the NAPA store and the sales counter guy and I fabricated up an entire new post terminal cable system.
Now that really works nice.

@dbrannon79 the new starter spins it plenty fast.

@MrMarty51 no, the batteries are on the side in a case with a door, but since it fires right up on the starter / charger, I must have an amperage problem maybe a ground or the batteries need servicing.

I have a foxwell bt-100 tester, so I will need to out the batteries and test them for charge and reserve and cca

One thing it could be is insufficient amperage to the lift pump which won't overcome the regulator resulting in fuel pressure starvation at crank with a weak CCA.

The batteries have never been run this low before with all the cranking and hot chafging

 

[MrMarty51]

@dbrannon79 the new starter spins it plenty fast.

@MrMarty51 no, the batteries are on the side in a case with a door, but since it fires right up on the starter / charger, I must have an amperage problem maybe a ground or the batteries need servicing.

I have a foxwell bt-100 tester, so I will need to out the batteries and test them for charge and reserve and cca

One thing it could be is insufficient amperage to the lift pump which won't overcome the regulator resulting in fuel pressure starvation at crank with a weak CCA.

The batteries have never been run this low before with all the cranking and hot chafging

I keep forgetting that this is not like my pickup truck.
Pardon Me.

 

[jrsavoie]

@dbrannon79 the new starter spins it plenty fast.

@MrMarty51 no, the batteries are on the side in a case with a door, but since it fires right up on the starter / charger, I must have an amperage problem maybe a ground or the batteries need servicing.

I have a foxwell bt-100 tester, so I will need to out the batteries and test them for charge and reserve and cca

One thing it could be is insufficient amperage to the lift pump which won't overcome the regulator resulting in fuel pressure starvation at crank with a weak CCA.

The batteries have never been run this low before with all the cranking and hot chafging

I apologize if already discussed. Have the battery cables been replaced with 2/0 or otherwise verified to be sufficient?

I sometimes hook the battery load tester to the ends of the cables to check them

 

[MrMarty51]

I sometimes hook the battery load tester to the ends of the cables to check them

Never thought of that before.
Good idea.

 

[dbrannon79]

I had always made my own battery cables using some heavy welding cable and the copper lugs. would set the lugs upright in the vice, use a propane torch and fill the wire cavity with solder. heat the stripped end of the cable some then shove it in the hole. cover the ends in what ever color electric tape (red or black) and was off to the races. 2/0 cable was about the best size to go with.

recently I was told welding cable wasn't good to use for current travel. I liked it for the flexibility over regular battery cable.

 

[jrsavoie]

I had always made my own battery cables using some heavy welding cable and the copper lugs. would set the lugs upright in the vice, use a propane torch and fill the wire cavity with solder. heat the stripped end of the cable some then shove it in the hole. cover the ends in what ever color electric tape (red or black) and was off to the races. 2/0 cable was about the best size to go with.

recently I was told welding cable wasn't good to use for current travel. I liked it for the flexibility over regular battery cable.

I think welding cable is fine for current travel. My concern was the coating not holding up near as long as regular battery cable. I've had a lot of battery cable go bad over the years.

I had to scrap at least 400' of 4/0 welding lead. Kind of brought back tear to my eye. I couldn't find anyplace to recoat it. I don't think m that's even really an.option.

 

[dbrannon79]

I think welding cable is fine for current travel. My concern was the coating not holding up near as long as regular battery cable. I've had a lot of battery cable go bad over the years.

I had to scrap at least 400' of 4/0 welding lead. Kind of brought back tear to my eye. I couldn't find anyplace to recoat it. I don't think m that's even really an.option.

I wonder if that electric friction tape would have worked. the kind that doesn't have any sticky to it, that sort of adheres to it's self and would have to be cut off once applied. 400' of 4/0 had to have been worth a pretty penny even back in the day!

 

[royunion]

I keep forgetting that this is not like my pickup truck.
Pardon Me.

I am thinking it is the fuel shutoff solenoid. It takes 13.4 volts - plus those amps of either 50 or 200 in in charge or start mode and it fires right up. The solenoid is likely too weak to open on 12.5 volts.

So of course I need to order one

I just hope it doesn't crap out on me driving which will shut down the enginr

It is job to get to, as it is under the air intake heading to the turbo

I just hope I will be able to swap it without taking out the doghouse

 

[dbrannon79]

Not sure how it's setup on a Van, but on a truck engine the electronic version just unscrews out of the top of the IP. on the mechanical IP's you have to remove the top cover from the pump so the upper portion of the intake has to come off to access it. I forget which IP you have.

 

[jrsavoie]

I wonder if that electric friction tape would have worked. the kind that doesn't havei any sticky to it, that sort of adheres to it's self and would have to be cut off once applied. 400' of 4/0 had to have been worth a pretty penny even back in the day!

I'm guessing about 18 years ago.
I've covered small spots with splicing tape.

Too expensive to do 100' at a crack.

If anybody has a feasible solution to save welding cable, I'm all ears. I have a few more hundred foot here.

 

[royunion]

Not sure how it's setup on a Van, but on a truck engine the electronic version just unscrews out of the top of the IP. on the mechanical IP's you have to remove the top cover from the pump so the upper portion of the intake has to come off to access it. I forget which IP you have.

All DS4 is are the same but as I said the issue is

It is a job to get to, as it is under the air intake heading to the turbo

I just hope I will be able to swap it without taking out the doghouse

 

[MrMarty51]

I'm guessing about 18 years ago.
I've covered small spots with splicing tape.

Too expensive to do 100' at a crack.

If anybody has a feasible solution to save welding cable, I'm all ears. I have a few more hundred foot here.

Spiral wound hose wrap ?

 

[dbrannon79]

Spiral wound hose wrap ?

Not sure it would be proper, but some long runs of good quality heat shrink might provide a good layer to protect what insulation is still intact.

I know it would be a PIA to unroll a 100' out and slide on that length of heat shrink over it, but might be worth the effort depending on what you plan to the cable on. otherwise see what its worth selling as clean copper when scrap price is up, might bring you enough to purchase a 50' roll of new stuff.

 

[MrMarty51]

Not sure it would be proper, but some long runs of good quality heat shrink might provide a good layer to protect what insulation is still intact.

I know it would be a PIA to unroll a 100' out and slide on that length of heat shrink over it, but might be worth the effort depending on what you plan to the cable on. otherwise see what its worth selling as clean copper when scrap price is up, might bring you enough to purchase a 50' roll of new stuff.

I think that with this stuff wrapped around the welding cable that it would last indefinetely.
I wrapped the new Leroy Diesel oil cooler hoses with the spiral wrap He provides and that is some tough stuff.
Even if there was spots on the welding cable with broke insulation, tape them over then wrap on around the entire cable.

Redirect Notice

 

[Will L.]

No. Once the insulation is gone- let it go. Electric burns and or electrocution is not worth it.

 

[MrMarty51]

No. Once the insulation is gone- let it go. Electric burns and or electrocution is not worth it.

/\_/\_/\_ WHAT @Will L. SAID _/\_/\_/\

 

[royunion]

/\_/\_/\_ WHAT @Will L. SAID _/\_/\_/\

On the subject tangentially, a parasitic draw was found by way of direct short and small fire.

With the hot charger starter hooked up the volt / ammeter gauge caught fire behind the dash. It could be seen through the plastic dash. A quick unsnap and a puff blew out the fire. It appears for quite a while the ammeter shunt was grounding the connections to the dash frame.

There is a master battery cut out switch in the driver's step well which I threw but the starter charger was still pushing current. I made sure the hot leads were clear and threw the power back on and the starter charger went back under load but not as hard.

The voltmeter through the USB ports showed the batteries taking charge faster

Since my starter charger is old school 14.7 2/35/200 Schumacher. It will push 15.3 volts which will damage AGM batteries by induction boiling or heating the electrolyte. So I never let it push more than 14.4 volts before I throw the key to start. It almost always will start unless I previously had rn the batteries low by cranking. It can reach 14.4 without sufficient reserve capacity in the batteries.

Once it starts I use the duai alternators to further the charge but it takes a lot of idling and driving to restore lost reserve capacity unless I force " hard charging" by jumpering in a load or with a load through the inverter to cause the regulators allow maximum amps.

My alternators (dual) are custom 240 amp each, but they will only push a charge if another load forces them to.

Now I understand why the ammeter was reading such strange numbers and the service side batteries were not charging.

My AGM batteries are flooded, so they charge fast and have about 5 percent higher reserve capacity and when close to full charge when I shut off the key will read 13.2 volts and settle to 12.8 to 12.7.

Slowiy without the volt / ammeter gauge those numbers are returning, and for the first time in a long time it started using the batteries after shut off.

After I service the batteries, it it going to take a lot of running the engine with a desulfator to get close to spec reserve capacity back, but I I think and hope that was the culprit making the batteries weak.

On dieselplce I found a thread with the similar issues I was having where the guy described the same thing with it would start using a starter charger but not batteries. He replaced the batteries and that ended it. My batteries are relatively new and after some service and care I can bring them I believe.

All this started from changing a fuel filter and difficulty sealing the water sensor leaking and the extended cranking that caused depleting the charge on the batteries. At least I found a major root issue that has been perplexing for some time